UKC

Apparently this is the best rest point on Ondra’s possible 9c project

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUNOjpKlTuX/

In reply to Carless:

completely different game, isn't it ?

In reply to GrahamD:

Well, at least that actual move wouldn't hurt my shoulder too much - there's hope for me yet!

In reply to Carless:

Amazing. I've never seen a rest like that before. I wonder how long he'll stay in that position and if there's a problem with blood going to the head if there too long.

In reply to stp:

or cramp in the calve?

In reply to Carless: Luxury, he can even swop legs!

In reply to Carless:

Bleedin' bivi ledge....

Presumably, when (and if?) he manages the route, there will be scope for a first thigh-protector-free ascent?

In reply to Carless: I believe there are many routes that are considered to be significantly easier if you wear some kind of knee-brace for a rest - I think Mecca - The Mid-life Crisis (8b+) is one (from remembering what's been said - it's so far above my level that I'd need to get on a plane )

In reply to stp:

Pretty standard in Scotland...
Dave mac on Echo wall - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_P8ZJ8GytXDM/SJHTDcnq0_I/AAAAAAAABPA/5_-vQv6ZW04/s...

Malc Smith at Dumby on Gut Buster - Font 8b+ https://cdn.ukc2.com/i/98742.jpg

In reply to Carless:

Not sure why you got a dislike. It's all personal ethics, but Alex Megos said in interview that he doesn't think knee / thigh pads are fair game. Someone will prove me wrong, but I can't recall ever seeing images of him using one.

In reply to TonyM:

I like the sound of that. Good for those of us lucky enough to have such pads built in.

In reply to TonyM:

There's a difference between saying you don't like using kneepads or saying they're unfair. The first is personal choice but if something is unfair then that implies anyone using them is cheating.

There's no doubt the modern purpose made climbing kneepads can make certain routes easier. Using a climbing specific kneepad on the Peak 8b+ route, Mecca means you can get a hands off rest half way up what is otherwise a sprint route.

Seems like a bit of a grey area though I'd imagine if Ondra is using them for the hardest route in the world they'll become pretty much an accepted thing in the near future. Currently I think the issue is that many climbers don't have them, and that's probably because the climbing ones are very overpriced, especially for something you rarely, if ever, need.

In reply to Carless:
Looks about 9b+ to me surely 9c would mean no hands-off rest and a death fall?

In reply to TonyM:

I presume I got 2 dislikes from people that thought I was serious

In reply to stp:

I'm not really sure I see it as a grey area. Its just a style choice. For now its down to Adam Ondra to propose a grade and state the style it was done in to warrent that grade.

In reply to stp:
As a total knee pad novice at risk of sounding stupid what do they actally do? do they make previously impossible knee bars possible or just stop you from mashing youre legs up? Presumably you could still get the knee bar in on mecca without one, it would just be bloody painfall. I know on the rare occasions i find myself kneebaring i usually end up losing a lot of skin

In reply to ebdon:

On a nasty knee bar without a pad you'll want to use your arms more cause it hurts and you'll probably move off sooner. I've been on routes where with a knee pad it almost feels like sitting in an armchair compared to not having one. Btw, this is not a comment on the Ondra route....

That weird half knee bar rest on the Dura Dura looked worse than this one though.

In reply to Matt Vigg:

I find the Yosemite Wall one unbearable after a few seconds...time to invest perhaps?

In reply to ebdon:
It depends on how secure the knee bar is. If it's pretty solid then a pad is really just that and will make it more comfortable and not mash the skin on your knee. However for less secure knee bars which are more friction dependent, when you are more just pressing your knee against something then the rubber on the pad does make them significantly easier to hold in place to the point where they would be near impossible / useless without a pad on.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I'd definitely recommend one, I've never owned one but often borrowed one and always thought I should make one rather than buying one but never have. I reckon an old thick wetsuit would be good material, just cut the knee out and slide it up your leg, in fact suspect you can find knackered old wetsuits on eBay.

In reply to Matt Vigg:

You can make quite an effective one by painting a rubberised glue onto a rehab support tube or wrap. I do like the five-ten neon though... it hurts a bit behind the knee where the velcro strap digs in if you've got it tight, but if you can stand it, it's way more secure than any of the home made ones I've tried.

In reply to ebdon:


Good point. A friend who has done Mecca says although it's possible to get a knee bar without a pad it's so insecure it's not really useable. Before proper climbing knee pads were invented no one used a knee bar to do the route. Since kneepads it seems like most people, aside from wads, are using one to do the route. My friend is adamant the route is easier that way (8b rather than 8b+).

The climbing kneepads are, amongst other things, made from sticky rubber, and are thus far more secure, not just something to avoid pain. Obviously some kneebars are fine without so the advantage of a kneepad would be minimal in such cases.

In reply to Ciro:

Yeah that sounds more effective, I've only ever used one cause of painful kneebars, actually didn't realise you could buy them made with sticky rubber. That does sound a bit like an ethical thread in the making!

In reply to Carless:

I like crack gloves so am not doing to dis' kneepads, but I wonder if they could ever go the way spurs did in mixed climbing? After all if having a point sticking out the front of your boots is fair, why isn't a second point sticking out the back? But when people found they could hang off them for ages to rest, mixed climbers pretty quickly decided they weren't cricket.

In reply to Matt Vigg:


I think the debate over whether it's acceptable to use sticky rubber in climbing was settled a long time ago

As I see it, it would be a nonsense to try to make a distinction between covering your toes in rubber to make it easier to use them, and covering your knees in rubber to make it easier to use them. But each to their own I guess

In reply to GrahamD:


Sort of though on significant testpieces climbers might want to do a route the way it was done originally to feel they've passed the 'test' fairly.

For instance Sean McColl managed to knee bar his way through the crux of Hubble using pads. Since the crux of the route almost is the route it's almost like he had climbed something else. In that case he didn't complete the route anyway (awful conditions) and no other ascents have used kneepads. But I can understand the feeling by some climbers of wanting to do the route the original way rather than using technological innovations that make it a bit easier.

With Ondra's route, since it's done with pads first, it's different. There's no historical precedent of doing the route without. The grade will be for using a kneepad.

In reply to Ciro:

Don't worry I won't be starting that thread!

In reply to stp:

But surelywhat you say there is, in effect, whether you want to mimic the original style of ascent, or improve on it or use an easier style. The thread on the Big Issue raised a similar style question in the trad world about using preplaced gear or not. So it just boils down to being open to style you chose to use - others will soon judge whether it was a good style or not !

In reply to stp:
Back to hob-nail boots and hemp ropes for you my lad

Technical innovations make climbs easier - some are more affected (easified - can I make that word up?) than others.

In reply to stp:

Excerpt from UKC Interview by Bjorn Pohl with Megos (Nov 16) which pretty much captures, with some prescience, what has been raised here:
"Pohl: The question is really where we draw the line between free climbing and aid
Megos: Kneepads were definitely more considered cheating a few year[s] back
Actually to be VERY correct, we are all aid climbing. Chalk and shoes are aid aren't they? They are just accepted by us to be ok.

Pohl: So we accept some development to a certain point, but this point keeps moving slowly?
Megos: Yes exactly. That's what I think at least. Everything improves, more gadgets will be found. It will be accepted by the community and there we go.

Pohl: Is this a problem you think?
Megos: It's only a problem if you make it one. I think everybody has to draw his own line to what he thinks is still acceptable for himself.
I for example just don't like to use kneepads. I just don't feel good doing it. And I would never do it if the first ascender didn't use one. If the first ascender did use one then I would try to do it without, or just leave it.
Till the day where I get too desperate maybe..."

Of course the Ondra project is so futuristic, the man such an inspiration and that 'resting point' so mind-boggling that my discussion point is off original topic. In terms of how practice by those operating out on the envelope percolate down into mainstream use, that Megos' statement of personal ethics had resonance for me. It definitely did dissuade me from investing in a knee pad to bring closer to my reach some of my own punterish ambitions with less effort.

In reply to Carless:

I love how Ondras idea of a rest is five minutes of upside-down sit ups.

My idea of a rest involves cake and an arm chair.

In reply to TonyM:


Quite. Kneepads aside, and assuming Adam gets up (or across?) this thing at some point: when was the last time one person single handedly pushed the world standard forward two grades? Has anybody ever?

In reply to Carless:

I was brought up with the notion that using your knees when climbing is bad style.....

In reply to AlanLittle:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_G%C3%BCllich

Thus Güllich added several grades to the grading system. In fact, with the exception of Ben Moon's Hubble (the world's first 8c+), Wolfgang was responsible for 4 consecutive step-ups with the world's first 8b (Kanal Im Rücken, 1984), 8b+ (Punks In The Gym, Apr 1985), 8c (Wall street, 1987), and 9a (Action Directe, Aug 1991). However, it is important to note, that this exception only exists on the french grade system, while for the UIAA system that Güllich himself used, the four steps were consecutive without exception (X X+ XI- XI).

In reply to SenzuBean:

Thanks. I was thinking Wolfie must have had more competition from the likes of Ben, Jerry & les Français.

In reply to AlanLittle:


I also thought that until one day I stumbled onto his wikipedia page and saw that - must've been a very humble guy.