UKC

I always used to joke that you'd have to pay me a tonne in order to convince me to go to the US-of-A, for any reason. I'd say that I didn't believe that food should come in such colours or that it wouldn't be strategically optimal because I'd likely piss-off the customers by my inability to keep foreign policy and world politics out of business-related discussions. In reality, though, if someone had offered me a chance to go there (particularly, to one of their national parks or climbing areas) I'd have acquiesced.

Today, though, I think I've reached a point where the answer's simply "No." I'm not going. Business be damned, fire me if you will, I'm not going.

The more I read, the more I see, the more I watch, the more I think that it's just not worth it. Yes, I watched the videos of that recent police shooting. And I'm not flying international without any Devices or with all my devices checked in. And I'm not prepared to offer my personal Devices for "screening" or inspection by TSA staff (by who's right do they feel entitled to have access to my stuff?) -- I'm not prepared to subject my person to the TSA bodily inspections, either.

There are other countries to visit - other places to hike and climb and other lands to tour - so I have no personal reason to need to visit the USA. As far as business is concerned, I'm simply not willing and that's probably career limiting but so be it. I guess the threshold that has been crossed is this one: I'd now rather take the carreer-limiting-maneuvre than go there.

I wonder how long it will be before this opinion becomes more wide-spread? Will they notice that nobody wants to go there, anymore? Will they address their image in the wider world or allow it to continue to decline as rapidly as it currently is? Will they stop proposing silly rules about laptops on aeroplanes and wotnot?

I wonder how big businesses are handling this. Incentives to employees who are forced to go? There's a very real chance that I will be called to put my money where my mouth is in the very near future and I'm interested to see what the fallout will be.

How about you? Are you still happy to go to the US? Do you get incentives from your company when you have to go for business? Have you asked for them?

Or do you think this is complete bullshit and that there's no problem, in reality?

In reply to Xharlie:

It's a big country, most people who move to the US don't go and live in the Trump voting areas where people have mated with an onion and wear pointy white hoods. I always feel pretty at home in SF. Except too many hipsters.

In reply to Xharlie:

If we are avoiding countries due to the political situation I'm not sure I'd come to the UK if I wasn't English.

In reply to Xharlie:

America is a very weird place. There are fantastic things about it, and there are dreadful things about it. In my previous trips, it was possible to go and only experience the fantastic stuff (or at least, mostly the fantastic stuff). However, I haven't been for quite a while, and I fear it's harder to avoid the crap. I have a bit of a dilemma, in that I promised myself a 60th birthday trip to go to Grand Teton, but that's now only 2 year away, and I don't fancy the chances of the crap getting less crap in that time. I think I might be rethinking my 60th.

In reply to Xharlie:


Yes I do and no there isn't.

If you personally won't go anywhere which you disagree with the way it's run then you're world must be pretty small. Also it is perfectly possible to go to a country without really having to deal with its politics in any significant way or will you get to the USA and suddenly feel compelled to buy a gun and start shooting stuff and praising Jesus?

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

If I think back to South Africa, I consider it to be a pretty dangerous place - particularly Johannisburg. But I grew up there and I know the way the game is played - I know the rules, what you can do and what you can't do. You can use your phone in a coffee shop. You cannot walk down the road, alone, with headphones in, oblivious to what's going on around you. A woman can carry a hand-bag but cannot drive through town with it sat on the passenger's seat.

Several long visits to Zimbabwe taught me another universal law: you don't f*ck with the dictator and his goons - that's an easy one. As long as you ignore them, they will ignore you. This might mean keeping your upper-body still while his cavalcade drives past or it might mean something else but, ultimately, there will be a protocol of sorts.

But the US seems to be complete chaos. There are no rules. You *will* be treated as a suspect even without any cause for suspicion (and consequently be denied the right to privacy, dignity and the old-fashion idea of "innocent until proven guilty" even before you've made it from the aeroplane to the border) and even the seemingly intuitive ones like being respectful to a police officier could get you shot and killed.

In reply to Xharlie:

I travel to the US 2-4 times a year for work, mostly to Philadelphia but sometimes to Baltimore, Boston or NYC, and often take the opportunity to visit other parts of the USA while I am there. I have never even thought to ask for incentives, but then again I don't ask for incentives when I go to Malawi for work either...

While you hear horror stories about TSA and travel, in reality I have always been able to carry devices with me (from the UK at least) - I generally travel for work with a phone, Kindle, tablet and laptop in my bag - and I have never had any of them screened. I have also never been searched in any other way, and while TSA staff can be somewhat brusque none of them have ever been anything other than professional towards me. Of course, I am white and travelling from a country that the US generally perceives as non-threatening so other people may have different experiences - however as with any travel, it is the occasional horror stories that hit the news and not the thousands of travellers every day who have no trouble at all.

As for the food - of course you can gorge on obscenely coloured high-fructose corn syrup laden crap easily if you like. You can also get a wider variety of high quality food in restaurants for a lower cost than you can here. The best meals I have had out within the price I can afford have all been in the US.

Yes, the political situation sucks, but so does ours...and just like the situation here, some people agree with what is going on and some are very opposed.

The US has some fantastic wild places, and some fun beautiful cities with interesting people in them. It is a strange place - it has a culture that is quite different to the UK, but for me experiencing that in any country is part of the fun of travelling - to miss all that because of some perceived issues that probably aren't ever going to affect you seems like a very closed attitude to me.

In reply to Xharlie:

Odd post really. I mean, I do understand some of your thoughts, but why - for example - would you avoid a country just because their border control is tight, restrictive and irritatiing (which it is)? If I had taken that decision, I may not have travelled for recreational (often climbing) reasons to countries such as Pakistan (threatened with body cavity search as a way to extract a bribe), Israel (pre flight interrogation techniques), Turkey (passport removed at gunpoint whilst locked in a cell for no good reason) and even Iceland (submerged in boiling water to force confession that Iceland did win the cod wars and make better jumpers).

Anyway, I think that once you get past border control in the US, it's pretty much all plain sailing for the visitor and there are some truly fantastic places to visit.

In reply to Xharlie:

Your risk analysis is very skewed. If you visit the US as a tourist you are fantastically unlikely to be subject to anything more than a bit of a wait and a few questions before your passport is stamped by way of interaction with the authorities. Anywhere you are likely to visit will be more ordered than much of the UK, let alone Zimbabwe.

In reply to Xharlie:

Frankly, I think you're being a paranoid moron. Sorry, but you did ask.

In reply to Fraser:

Ooof, firm but fair!

In reply to Xharlie:

I travel to the US for work and don't recognise your mail from my experiences. That said, I'm white, going mainly to NY or Atlanta along with a load of other Europeans. Big cities tend to be more Democrat than Republican and my main colleagues are Arabic / Muslim / PRican / British so probably not typical.

However I'd agree with the post above - the food is much better in the US than in Europe. If you travel a lot for work and you are fed up with over cooked beans and eels that they serve in France (in our canteen anyway) it's great to go and get good quality inexpensive food that you actually want to eat.

As everywhere you are going to get a mix of people. Some are decent and some are not. It is not limited to the US. However I don't talk much about politics I have to admit.

In reply to Fraser:

Fair play.

I sort of expected the way this thread would go so I'm not surprised. Posting, here, was kind of triggered by the videos of the latest police shooting. Lots of the other issues have built up, in my mind, over the recent months, but it was really the horror at those scenes that precipitated writing a post about it.

In reply to Xharlie:

I'm not too keen on going to the US either, I certainly don't think I'll be going there as a tourist anytime soon. Call it a protest if you like.

In reply to Fraser:

I was ready to sneer at this, but some colleagues who are Muslim and of Pakistani descent had a torrid time in immigration there.
They wanted to know every email address they'd ever used. Could you answer that? I couldn't.
As a middle-aged white male with a family I sailed through immigration every time I've visited, save for a bit of a frisk which nearly made my trousers fall down.

In reply to Xharlie:

I was a bit harsh earlier, sorry for that. Please consider that changed to paranoid, and delete the moron part.

In reply to Xharlie:

I'm lucky I've been already, and really enjoyed it. There are some strange and wonderful people, and some amazing places. I had a great time, with the only 2 downsides being trying to get through LAX in a reasonable time (literally hours for immigration and excessive searches for no obvious reason), and the other when I was bivvying near a road. Car parked up in a layby on a small road well away from any towns, I was in my sleeping bag on a patch of sand about 10m away from the car, and in sight of it, fast asleep. At about 2am I get woken up by a torch and handgun pointed at me by a policeman who was demanding to know what I'm doing in an aggressive way. And then all the license/ID checks, escorting me away from the area, blah blah blah... To me it doesn't matter whether he was in the right or needed to point a gun at me while I'm clearly asleep, or I was in the wrong for sleeping there. I'm not prepared to put up with a culture that requires that. I've been to many 'far less developed' countries and much preferred them, so that's where I'll continue to go. I won't be going back to America in the short term, given what I had as a baseline experience and the perceived downturn it's taken since then. Rightly or wrongly, that's my choice - plenty of other places to go!

In reply to Fraser:

Meh. "Moron" is entirely appropriate if you ask me.

I don't come to UKC for agreement and affirmation.

In reply to Xharlie:

I think you're basing your image of the US entirely on stereotypes and sensationalist TV.

A bit like Americans who won't visit the UK due to UK cities being under Sharia Law with the pavements strewn with severed heads and vans full of suicide bombers on every street corner.

In reply to kathrync:

Spot on. I also spend a lot of time in the US for work and your summary is bang on.

I suspect the problem is people have a stereotype and caricature of the US- gathered through the media, and not personal experience, that is only partially reflective of real life. In reality it's a vast and varied country with a mix of weird, wonderful and sometimes awful things that are evident in most countries.

In reply to Si_G:


The black partner of a family friend had a rotten time going through immigration shortly before 9/11. It can seem that being white and from the UK too helps, my parents and their friends have never had any bother.

In reply to Xharlie:

I don't believe it's confined to the USA. Flying in and out of Schiphol a couple of times earlier this year, I was given a lot of very precise instructions about what to do with my various electronic devices and chargers, and they were completely inflexible. As usual, staff had to pat me down because something-or-other (apparently my walking boots) triggered their alarm. And flying out of Hanover, I was subject to some very tense close scrutiny after the airport X-ray identified some torpedo-shaped items in my hand luggage. Their relief was almost palpable when they found out that I was carrying some clicky ballpoint pens.

To be honest, I would prefer to be on a flight where everything possible had been done to ensure that the plane was not going to be blown to smithereens in transit.

In reply to Xharlie:

I can understand how all of these terrible videos of police shootings would make it seem that America is a horrible lawless place , especially if you've never been there. In reality, things are nowhere near as bad as they seem to the outside and if you had a bit more knowledge , you would find that the issue is very complex and not so cut and dried.

America is huge, with millions of people driving all of the time, often carrying lots of guns. Traffic stops happen all the time, between people of many different races and it almost always goes just fine. The high number of videos where it doesn't isn't an indicator of some widespread injustice, more of an indicator of the sheer high numbers of stuff going on.

The issues of race and gun ownership and law enforcement are all complex and multi faceted. I'd you were to visit the US and talk to black cops and poor whites and gun advocates, you might just start to understand. I've done all these things and I only understand that any simple knee jerk position like yours is largely a function of ignorance.

In reply to Xharlie:

I'm with you. I have been for climbing twice and once to visit a friend.
As long as The likes of Trump truly lead the dance I shall not go back...they won't care though.
More's the pity because this year it'll be four years since I'd set a long term goal ambition of climbing Romantic warrior (5.12b) for October 2017.

Anyway, I'm nowhere near fit enough and he and his cronies upset me so much that I am no longer willing to go there. My choice and Americans are entitled to make their own choice.

In reply to Xharlie:


Thanks for coming out.


As a British person traveling as a tourist or for business, there's absolutely no problem.

The problems are caused by inequality, the influence of money and corporations in government, and the hysteria from terrorism. None of these issues would affect you, just like poverty and inequality would not affect you in other countries you would visit, you just here about the USA more because it's on the news.

I have issues living here, the politics, the healthcare, the shitty holiday time. But none of that affects you as a visitor.

I am also worried about being asked to give my social media passwords and being denied re-entry for refusing, they can do that to anyone who is not a citizen. But it has not happened yet. I don't worry about getting shot in the street or sent to Guantanamo Bay,

In reply to Xharlie:

Speaking as an American, if I didn't have to live here, you would probably have to pay me to visit.

Also, even if the TSA issues are not on their own a reason enough not to come here, it does drive me absolutely nuts that we can't seem to sort them out. How can people not understand that being shouted at and searched, ahem, "thoroughly" is not a way to attract visitors?! Other countries' security seem to be perfectly capable of doing a better job so it is clearly possible.

In reply to French Erick:





It seems a waste to make a protest like that when the Americans certainly won't even notice. You are just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Why not donate some money to the ACLU and go have your climbing holiday? Go to California and most people will think just like you and have more reasons to dislike Trump.

In reply to Jimbocz:


I see where you are coming from but it is ethically unappealing. Having said that, I would not judge someone for deciding on that course of action- just that it's not for me. I'm sure I am suffering from as much cognitive dissonance as the next man mind!

Forgot the not in the judging bit- Freudian slip?!

In reply to dsh:


But wouldn't I be the ultimate hypocrate if I travelled there accepting that I'd be fine but knowing that if I was of a different skin-colour or ethnicity, I'd likely be in for hell?

In reply to Xharlie:

I think you are talking the bigggest pile of c##p ever.

The problem is you. If you actually knew what you were talking about you would be on the plane over there in a flash.

In the last 2 months I have been to the States and the TSA has never bothered to search me etc etc.Its take me about a few minutes to clear through immigration.

Your comments are so unreal I have had to reread them a couple of times in utter disbelief.

In reply to Xharlie:

I think you'd be a realist not a hypocritic.

Not going won't change anything for Black/Muslim/poor Americans.

In reply to Fraser:


Yes, I agree. The US is an overwhelmingly friendly and welcoming country. There are some dodgy things and dodgy people, but they are easily avoided, especially if you are going for the climbing and so on - in all the areas I have visited it has felt as safe as most places I've been.

In reply to Xharlie:

Yeah I get all that, but dude, seriously, the climbing is awesome over there! ;p

In reply to Xharlie:

It really depends on who you are. I have been to the USA with my partner many times. We have climbed, descended canyons and met up with friends from California. We can't go any more. My partner is a trans woman. It wasn't an issue before - she isn't very visibly trans and of course all her UK ID says female. But now that the whole bathroom debate has kicked off, she is worried that if she went over there and used a public toilet, there would be the chance of someone checking out her larger-than-average hands and deeper-than-average voice, and shoving a gun in her face or threatening her. It has happened to out-of-state trans visitors even in states without a bathroom bill and in places with a single unisex loo. It just isn't worth it for a holiday. If she was still working for a company which required her to visit the USA on business, which fortunately she is not, she would refuse.

In reply to Gone:

Thanks for that. I had stopped following the bathroom debate a while back. I didn't realise it had resulted in more than angry words and awkward moments, though, but I suppose that "shoving a gun in [her/his] face" is now the accepted (and legally passable) method with which all Situations are handled, in the US, so that outcome, at least, doesn't surprise me.

(I was originally against sharing bathroom facilities, actually, but, these days, I realise that heternormal gender-segregated ablution facilities only serve to reinforce unhelpful taboos and stigmas, possibly even creating a lot of the percieved need to hide one's body from the eyes of those with different physical parts and almost certainly amplifying consequent voyeurisms by confounding them with curiosity, mystique and alure. Perhaps life on the Continent has changed my opinions, here.)

In reply to Xharlie: I think your reasoning & decision is ignorant and foolish. You're basing your actions on a few media soundbites and you've probably been looking for things to back up your decision - confirmation bias in all its glory.

I doubt that more than a few people will follow your decision because the loss of some great experiences pales into insignificance compared to the vanishingly small inconvenience of whatever you think might happen to you in transit.

I had to go through the "inconvenience" of a formal interview and biometric testing in London last month to get a 10 year US visa. I cannot go through ESTA because I've been to Afghanistan, Sudan and Iran. They are also great places to walk and climb but, believe me, you get far more personal inconvenience going somewhere like that - and it was worth every dollar & every hour of inconvenience.

To claim that the US is "in complete chaos" is so far removed for the truth that I can't really add anything to that.

In answer to your final question - yes, it's complete bullshit and there's no problem in reality. You're simply paranoid and ill-informed.

In reply to Xharlie:

Given that there are loads of beautiful and interesting places to visit in the world, I'd probably give somewhere that voted for Trump a miss.

In reply to kathrync:

I was about to say the same thing! Except I live here. Like any place, it's varied, both really good and really bad.
Their gun culture is a bit odd, but it's not universal by any means. And their healthcare system sucks.

But mostly a friendly place

In reply to Xharlie:


Your choice. Yharlie *will* be prepared to do those things. They will be rewarded for doing so.

No drama. No big deal. Entirely your choice.

In reply to Xharlie:

You and me both. I have no passport but if I did I wouldn't go. The thought of listening to that accent for more than a minute makes Liverpool much more appealing

In reply to Xharlie:

More fun stuff

http://www.newsweek.com/justin-trudeau-canada-border-patrol-immigration-bor...

Travelers who change their minds and decide not to enter the United States are currently allowed to leave. The new law permits U.S. agents to question and if need be strip search people seeking not to enter the United States.

So if you're in Canada, and you go to the border, don't like what you see and want to turn around - you can get strip searched (these are by US border agents stationed on the Canadian side of the border)! What the absolute f(&k!

They can also take your phone by force: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/american-citizens-u-s-border-agents-can...

Also your fingerprint has no legal rights (unlike a password) - they are legally allowed to use force to use your fingerprint to unlock your device (picture that, being pinned down on the floor, having trouble breathing, your clenched hand prised open, and your finger held open on your phone until it clicks open - disgusting and barbaric). Similarly they have specialized software that will download all of your data and social media information in a matter of minutes (I suspect it finds all active cookies for social media logins, and using specialized tools/APIs downloads all information it can, and then combs it for keywords / known watchlisted people).

I will probably still visit the US (to climb Baker and climb at Vantage), it's a great country, and many of the people I met there 9 years ago are extremely, extremely nice. But all I will bring is a climbing rack and a tent - no smartphone, no nothing. But for the meantime, I will stay in Canada - plenty to do.

In reply to Xharlie:

The Americanisms in your post aside; you're just being silly.

In reply to Dave the Rave:

But how appealing to Liverpool is a bigot?

In reply to Xharlie:



No it's not bullshit, you just need to grow up a bit.

In reply to Xharlie:

Has anyone exerted pressure to get you to go to the USA? Is the USA in awe of your abilities and desperate to tempt you over the Atlantic? Or is this spleen-venting akin to my deriding "modern football" and announcing that I no longer wish to be considered for the national team?

In reply to John Stainforth:


Is dislike of an accent bigotry?

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Agreed: dislike of anything is not bigotry. The measure of bigotry is the level of intolerance. Not to be able to stand an accent for more than a minute and to use this as an excuse to shun another nation's inhabitants does seem to be remarkably intolerant. (Hopefully, you were joking; you didn't really mean it.)

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Tell that to the teacher who got taken off the plane when in transit via Reykjavik earlier this year. Perhaps as long as you are white and have an anglo name you are fine, but that's not everyone.

It's a few years now but the last time I went to the States I was shoved by an immigration agent in a way that I've never been treated by any kind of law enforcement official in the UK or elsewhere in Europe. I was surprised and shocked more than hurt, but he was doing the same to an older woman which seemed even more shocking. I was actually being met by a diplomat who I was staying with and she asked me if I wanted her to formally complain. I never did: she was a diplomat from my country of residence, not my country of citizenship, so it didn't seem worth the bother, but the experience left a strong and bad impression.

In reply to TobyA:
My wife was reduced to tears by an immigration official who seemed to go out of his way to be obnoxious.
Only when my wife burst into tears did he change his attitude and became almost human.
The worst part is having to accept this sort of thing or risk being on the next plane home.
We travel to the states quite often as once in the country the people are usually very friendly and the scenery is awesome.

In reply to Xharlie:
Some ( maybe 25) years ago I climbed and walked with a chap who had vowed never to go to Liverpool , for many of the same reasons,, you're not him are you ?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

This is largely how I feel, plus the last election has confirmed that there are a significant amount of people around whom I'd really have to keep my mouth shut unless I wanted my "ass whuppin'."

I'd love to go for the national parks, wildlife and actual wilderness of a kind that doesn't exist even in continental Europe let alone on this island. Culturally, well, I could just get a job here as a primary school teacher.

Anyway, in about a week I'll have an Iranian stamp in my passport, problem solved

In reply to John Stainforth:


It works both ways. The Sun isn't sold in Liverpool.

In reply to Removed UserStuart en Écosse:


Nope just lots and lots of rain

In reply to Xharlie:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hilarybrueck/2017/06/29/denied-afghanistans-al...

Thought this was interesting.

In reply to Xharlie:

To everyone saying "these things probably won't happen to you", what about having your fingerprints taken, retina scanned, and picture taken? This is procedure, and not negotiable. I got caught out with this when I was ignorant of the rules for transferring flights in the US. I wasn't even going there! Had it not been for the fact that my fiancé was already waiting for me at my final destination, I would've refused and been on the next flight home (hopefully!).

I mean your fingerprints?! Does that not worry anyone? What would you do if you were asked for them next time you were coming back into the UK? Just say "well I'm not breaking any laws so who cares"?

In reply to Xharlie:

Interestingly in pinko liberal LA, and specifically LAX, they have taken down the welcoming picture of Obama and replaced it with... no picture of Trump.

But having transited through twice in the last month, it took 2 hours each time to get through immigration and back in through security to get back on to the same plane. At one point my trainers, which had been pushed off the conveyor through X ray by someone accidentally as I went through screening, were on the other side of the line. My 7 year old lad was stuck on the other side by himself while I had to go back for them. The X ray machine then shut inexplicably for 15 minutes with me on the wrong side of the barrier, and there was no way they were going to let me back through. Thankfully he's a sensible lad and just sat still and waited with the bags, but he was getting a bit strung out by the time I caught up with him.

The TSA staff were a mixture of rude, shouty and unhelpful and then others apparently genuinely nice and apologetic. As we queued to get X rayed there were signs every couple of metres saying take your laptop out for X ray, take your shoes off, belt off etc. When we got to the machine we got shouted at for having taken our laptop out and belts off, which was now apparent completely unnecessary.

I'm not planning on transiting through LAX again, if I can avoid it, but options are more limited from NZ to LHR.

b

In reply to Xharlie:

I have a similar opinion. However, I think there are still good people there and cool places to visit, which the politics side of things don't affect much. I was in NYC in 2013 and it was pretty fun. And as a lover of fast food it's like Mecca.

However, with the new barriers for entry with the screenings etc I'd never go there if they are going to inspect my phone and such. So in order to go there new I'd have to basically buy a burner phone, so I could only go when I can afford that. It will take a bit more effort then to go there.

Me and my wife actually considered moving there until recently, because she was employed by a company where she had an open opportunity to work at the main office in NY. The politics over there have always seemed like it's another planet from Norway (pretty much everything is the opposite), but with the checks and balances it seemed to not get properly out of hand so you could at least tolerate living there. After Trump got elected, it was the straw that broke the camel's back for us, so any plan for living there has been put on hold for at least a few years.

It's not that there are batshit crazy politicians over there, those are everywhere. It's just that they have now elected so many of them they control 2 out of 3 branches of government. In addition, and the media probably amplifies it, the political discourse over there seems to extreme. No middle ground, the people I know on the left side of American politics are into safe spaces and everything being politically correct at all times, and then there's the republicans. Protests and burning cars and shooting politicians.

And this is all in addition to the gun violence and the crime etc.

Maybe some day if they ever come to their senses over there.