UKC

The extra costs of private utilities

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 Geras 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

It's shameful, I can see no 'market' argument for private companies operating utilities. The only 'benefit' is the rather dubious one of offbooking the utilities borrowing, rather than counting towards national debt.
OP Offwidth 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Geras:

Thats been the game of all recent governments... pious about deficit reduction whilst generating enormous off book debts like student loans, PFIs and increased debt arrangements of semi-independant ex fully public organisations doing public sector work (like post 92 Universities) and above all huge unsustainable increases in private citizen debts.
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 Postmanpat 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Offwidth:
What do you find "interesting" about it ?

It has one "interesting" but completely unexplained statement "It found they have invested no significant new shareholder equity, but have managed to extract nearly all of their post-tax profit as dividends. The report calculated that every household is worse off by around £100 a year as a result".

It has a reference to the cost of smart meterisation (again with no explanation or quantification of its impact") and a reference to (quite an interesting) report on the water companies.

The rest seems to add no insight or analysis at all beyond saying that prices have risen.
Post edited at 14:13
 John2 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

I believe the reason that the water companies were privatised was that the government didn't wish to pay the significant amount of money required to bring our water quality up to EU standards. So much for all those people who used to warn about the terrible quality of the water in France and Spain.

As for smart meters, the time I spent working on SSE's smart meter project vied with the computerisation of the MOT system for the most wasteful computer project I ever worked on. Obviously my time at Natwest (not yet RBS) took the prize. The latest thinking on smart meters is that people pay attention to their data for a few weeks, then get bored and go back to their old habits. Who'd have thought it?
 ByEek 02 Jul 2017
In reply to John2:

> As for smart meters, the time I spent working on SSE's smart meter project vied with the computerisation of the MOT system for the most wasteful computer project I ever worked on. Obviously my time at Natwest (not yet RBS) took the prize. The latest thinking on smart meters is that people pay attention to their data for a few weeks, then get bored and go back to their old habits. Who'd have thought it?

That's my take on it. I fully expect my future smart meter so basically tell me I am using electricity. It seems that the only people to really gain are the energy companies who can save on paying people to read meters whilst raising prices at the same time as telling people they can use their smart meters to use electricity more wisely, hence "saving" money.
 Postmanpat 02 Jul 2017
In reply to John2:

> As for smart meters, the time I spent working on SSE's smart meter project vied with the computerisation of the MOT system for the most wasteful computer project I ever worked on.>

Aha, so I can blame you for the hours spent unsuccessful on the phone to SSE trying to make my "not verysmartatall meter" work?
 Robert Durran 02 Jul 2017
In reply to John2:


> The latest thinking on smart meters is that people pay attention to their data for a few weeks, then get bored and go back to their old habits.

I think it might depend on what data it actually displays. Since I've had a car with an average mpg display, I've quite enjoyed playing games such as getting to the climbing wall with the highest average I can. If, say, daily avaerage electricity use could be displayed, I'm sure I'd save energy playing similar games (and quite possibly getting hypothermia).
 John2 02 Jul 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Well there's not much to do in Scotland on the long winter evenings, is there?
 John2 02 Jul 2017
In reply to ByEek:

' It seems that the only people to really gain are the energy companies who can save on paying people to read meters '

What's the current cost of the smart meter project ? £11 bn? You could have a failed NHS IT project for that.
In reply to John2:

> The latest thinking on smart meters is that people pay attention to their data for a few weeks, then get bored and go back to their old habits. Who'd have thought it?

The main drive for smart metering is to remove the need for people to go and read meters. Changing use patterns is secondary, once you have an electronic metering mechanism.
 summo 03 Jul 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> The main drive for smart metering is to remove the need for people to go and read meters. Changing use patterns is secondary, once you have an electronic metering mechanism.

There are systems in place that can do that without the need for any meter, either down the wire itself or through a transmitter on the box that serves no other function. Eriksson do quite alot in this field.
 John2 03 Jul 2017
In reply to summo:

Indeed. SSE themselves have had access to a system using mobile phone technology for over a decade.
In reply to summo:

Yes, I know that systems exist (they're trying to roll one of those systems out now...). But they are rolled out in a very patchy manner (I haven't got remote metering, for instance), and use disparate systems. The current roll-out seems intended to use one system, and, for all the puff about energy-saving and allowing customers to make informed choices, blah blah blah, I still don't see it as anything other than a concerted attempt to roll out universal remote metering.

https://www.smartenergygb.org/en/about-smart-meters/what-is-a-smart-meter

Of course, it's not mandatory...
 Mark Edwards 03 Jul 2017
In reply to ByEek:

> the only people to really gain are the energy companies who can save on paying people to read meters

You’ve only just worked this out?
The only Smart thing about the smart meter program is the propaganda that makes some people think it’s for their benefit.
Just live in an area where there is poor mobile phone coverage. You can’t have a smart meter. The wireless link to your visible energy consumption meter will still work fine. But as the Energy Companies don’t get their benefits you can’t have one.
Some time ago I listened to some MP on Radio 4 who stated that you could finally work out how much it costs to leave your X-Box on standby. Really? You are going to kill the power to the rest of the house just to find that out?


Jim C 03 Jul 2017
In reply to John2:
> The latest thinking on smart meters is that people pay attention to their data for a few weeks, then get bored and go back to their old habits. Who'd have thought it?

I don't need a Smartmeter, years ago they gave me a little gadget that clamps on the the tails at the consumer unit, and displays in the kitchen. I can glance at that to see what is going on in the house, you get pretty good at knowing what the house'baseload' is, and you can glance at the display if leaving the house and easily see if something not needed has been left on. Not sure what a Smartmeter would do more for me ? ( I never get bored checking that I'm not wasting money)
Post edited at 19:18
 birdie num num 03 Jul 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not having a smart meter installed because you can't suck it back with your hoover.
 andy 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Jim C:

NOTE: I work in the energy industry but am a massive Smart cynic

However - the government's business case depends on a few things:

1 They reckon people will reduce consumption by c11%. Clear bollox. This has never happened anywhere else in the world
2 Metering costs go down and this is passed onto consumers - this will happen eventually as energy companies are obliged to be cost reflective in their fixed costs (but the cost of Smart rollout also has to be passed on first)
3 Switching gets easier as there'll be a central data store of meter data so you can theoretically go "Meter X is with Eon, switch it to BG". However the central data infrastructure is being developed by Capita, doesn't work, is about a year behind, so don't hold your breath...
 wintertree 04 Jul 2017
In reply to Jim C:

> Not sure what a Smartmeter would do more for me ?

It would allow more granular load shedding - at the house level - in times of energy shortage. So if you have any vulunerable people in your house and they are registered with the grid, then that's a bonus.

Firms have repeatedly said there is no remote disconnect feature, but that's wrong. The smart meters have a "pay as you go" mode - another arguable benefit is being able to switch modes without meters - and therefore have a disconnect relay in them.

Mind you, crediting the government with being able to get the IT right for a needs-aware house level granular load shedding is quite, erm, optimistic.

More likely someone (e.g. North Korea) will hack the central capita control site, command all meters to PAYG (or worse, depending on how many vulnerabilities exist in their software) and then permenantly revoke most of their supplier keys...

As of 2016, GCHQ intervened in the design of the smart meter security features so this is less likely than it was a year ago, although sucks if you have a pre-GCHQ smart meter...
Post edited at 08:22
 GrahamD 04 Jul 2017
In reply to birdie num num:

> I'm not having a smart meter installed because you can't suck it back with your hoover.

That works with the electricity supply, does it ? pictures would be handy...

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