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I was sent this link, which I found interesting as it is a concept that I have vaguely thought about before now.
However, it doesn't specifically address traffic-light-controlled junctions or roundabouts (the latter possibly because it's an American test case and there are iirc approximately 4 roundabouts in the whole of the USA)
https://theconversation.com/why-ups-drivers-dont-turn-left-and-you-probably...
Post edited at 00:51
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
Depends on the journey.
I used to pick the wife up from work and the estate she works on was a right bugger.
2 lanes to exit the estate, the right turning lane took 15 minutes to exit from on a good day and longer if you got a few ditherers in the que in front.
The left was always clear but it was a 2 mile detour home if you went left and that incorporated right turns later that could be delayed too.
Driverless cars are the answer to right turns.
The flowing traffic would slow a little bit leaving a gap for others to merge in to keeping everything moving because it takes the dither factor out.
Depends on the journey.
I used to pick the wife up from work and the estate she works on was a right bugger.
2 lanes to exit the estate, the right turning lane took 15 minutes to exit from on a good day and longer if you got a few ditherers in the que in front.
The left was always clear but it was a 2 mile detour home if you went left and that incorporated right turns later that could be delayed too.
Driverless cars are the answer to right turns.
The flowing traffic would slow a little bit leaving a gap for others to merge in to keeping everything moving because it takes the dither factor out.
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
Interesting idea. I think pulling out of a side road turning right when is busy but moving is more of an issue than turning right against traffic flow. You need a gap both ways.
Some mornings I'm quicker turning left out of my road and using the roundabout 1/4 mile away to u turn.
Interesting idea. I think pulling out of a side road turning right when is busy but moving is more of an issue than turning right against traffic flow. You need a gap both ways.
Some mornings I'm quicker turning left out of my road and using the roundabout 1/4 mile away to u turn.
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In reply to Blue Straggler: I used to work in Putney with a man who got his left front indicator trashed in the car park (he left the handbrake offin his car, it slide down, hit wall). He drove all the way home to Twickenham only using R turns
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In reply to wbo:
Even more critical then time for motorcyclists ( and bikes) as many accidents involve vehicles pulling out ( to turn right ) in front of the on coming bike.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2015/march/new-accident-stats-show-large...
Even more critical then time for motorcyclists ( and bikes) as many accidents involve vehicles pulling out ( to turn right ) in front of the on coming bike.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2015/march/new-accident-stats-show-large...
In reply to Blue Straggler:
I counted this morning on my way to work, which I've optimised by trial and improvement over the years. Many more left turns than right. Only one main road right turn against traffic, and this was to avoid the alternative, a right turn from a side road to a main road which would often back up for a long time. No option to miss this completely without an extra right turn due to railway. No right turns from side roads to main road except the road where I live, no way round this except to turn left and then go all the way round the next roundabout, turning left takes me the wrong way completely with no option to turn off that road for 5 miles.
I counted this morning on my way to work, which I've optimised by trial and improvement over the years. Many more left turns than right. Only one main road right turn against traffic, and this was to avoid the alternative, a right turn from a side road to a main road which would often back up for a long time. No option to miss this completely without an extra right turn due to railway. No right turns from side roads to main road except the road where I live, no way round this except to turn left and then go all the way round the next roundabout, turning left takes me the wrong way completely with no option to turn off that road for 5 miles.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
I live about a mile from where I work and that consists of four right turns and zero left turns.
The shortest route just using left turns is about three miles and has five turns.
Saying that, there is some validity to the concept. If I go to fill my car with petrol, I go one route there and another one back. The return one is longer, but seems more logical and strangely enough consists entirely of left turns.
I live about a mile from where I work and that consists of four right turns and zero left turns.
The shortest route just using left turns is about three miles and has five turns.
Saying that, there is some validity to the concept. If I go to fill my car with petrol, I go one route there and another one back. The return one is longer, but seems more logical and strangely enough consists entirely of left turns.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
I have been consciously avoiding right turns as much as possible for quite a few years now, not only is it safer, but as UBS have said it cuts down waiting times at busy junctions and trying to cross a busy major road. I hadn't thought of the fuel saving, but that's a bonus too.
I have been consciously avoiding right turns as much as possible for quite a few years now, not only is it safer, but as UBS have said it cuts down waiting times at busy junctions and trying to cross a busy major road. I hadn't thought of the fuel saving, but that's a bonus too.
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
That's written by my mate Graham. The 'travelling salesman' problem is a classic in optimisation and search theory to assess the performance of problem solving algorithms.
That's written by my mate Graham. The 'travelling salesman' problem is a classic in optimisation and search theory to assess the performance of problem solving algorithms.
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
Reminds me of when I passed my test whilst at university.
It wasn't until 4 years later that I sat in a car, and planned a trip from Sheffield to Bakewell.
I was terrified of turning right, and therefore would only turn left, but managed to work out a route most of the way, mainly by turning left, left, left then straight on, to turn right.
Reminds me of when I passed my test whilst at university.
It wasn't until 4 years later that I sat in a car, and planned a trip from Sheffield to Bakewell.
I was terrified of turning right, and therefore would only turn left, but managed to work out a route most of the way, mainly by turning left, left, left then straight on, to turn right.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
I believe in the US you can still turn right on a red light if it is clear/safe to do so which makes only turning right more beneficial. Also, their cities tend to follow more of a grid-pattern, so it is easier to get back on course by taking 3 consecutive right turns instead of a left.
Not saying it won't work at all in the UK, but will be less beneficial and will probably depend on the specific area/route.
Incidentally the indicators stopped working altogether for a few weeks on a car I used to own and as a consequence I could only make left turns since it is a lot more difficult/dangerous to turn right without indicating.
I believe in the US you can still turn right on a red light if it is clear/safe to do so which makes only turning right more beneficial. Also, their cities tend to follow more of a grid-pattern, so it is easier to get back on course by taking 3 consecutive right turns instead of a left.
Not saying it won't work at all in the UK, but will be less beneficial and will probably depend on the specific area/route.
Incidentally the indicators stopped working altogether for a few weeks on a car I used to own and as a consequence I could only make left turns since it is a lot more difficult/dangerous to turn right without indicating.
Post edited at 13:59
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In reply to SuperLee1985:
That's what hand signals are for...
> Incidentally the indicators stopped working altogether for a few weeks on a car I used to own and as a consequence I could only make left turns since it is a lot more difficult/dangerous to turn right without indicating.
That's what hand signals are for...
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In reply to Dax H:
You wouldn't have to wait for cars to signal at turnings either. Each car would know where the other car was going.
You wouldn't have to wait for cars to signal at turnings either. Each car would know where the other car was going.
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In reply to marsbar:
There's a few roundabouts I know where the traffic is backed up waiting to turn left. Driving down the right hand lane and going all the way round the roundabout to turn left seems to work well and no one really notices. Unlike the muppets who drive down the middle lane and turn left forcing their way into the left turn.
> Interesting idea. I think pulling out of a side road turning right when is busy but moving is more of an issue than turning right against traffic flow. You need a gap both ways.
> Some mornings I'm quicker turning left out of my road and using the roundabout 1/4 mile away to u turn.
There's a few roundabouts I know where the traffic is backed up waiting to turn left. Driving down the right hand lane and going all the way round the roundabout to turn left seems to work well and no one really notices. Unlike the muppets who drive down the middle lane and turn left forcing their way into the left turn.
Post edited at 18:17
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In reply to DancingOnRock:
If I lived a mile from where I worked I'd walk.
I do normally, but if it's raining or I'm going shopping straight after work I take the car.
If I lived a mile from where I worked I'd walk.
I do normally, but if it's raining or I'm going shopping straight after work I take the car.
In reply to SuperLee1985:
You are dead right (so why should this be disliked?). In the US, a right turn at a red light is treated as a give way, which increases the benefit of turning right. I wish we in the UK were allowed to turn left at red lights in an analogous way.
You are dead right (so why should this be disliked?). In the US, a right turn at a red light is treated as a give way, which increases the benefit of turning right. I wish we in the UK were allowed to turn left at red lights in an analogous way.
In reply to DancingOnRock:
There's a few roundabouts I know where the traffic is backed up waiting to turn left. Driving down the right hand lane and going all the way round the roundabout to turn left seems to work well and no one really notices.
I do this and some people definitely notice!
There's a few roundabouts I know where the traffic is backed up waiting to turn left. Driving down the right hand lane and going all the way round the roundabout to turn left seems to work well and no one really notices.
I do this and some people definitely notice!
In reply to SuperLee1985:
That's a very good point. I had been thinking about the roads around me, and that in many cases, just turning left would get you nowhere; into a dead end, or miles out of your way. A regular block system would eliminate the dead ends.
But I can't see how you can get to your intended left turn destination (in US), without having to cross the road you came in on. Doesn't that cause as much delay as turning left? You have to take a tour of the block beyond and to the right of the road you wish to reach.
Maybe US cross-roads junctions only allow cross-traffic and right filter, and don't support a left turn across traffic? Unlike most UK traffic control systems.
> Also, their cities tend to follow more of a grid-pattern, so it is easier to get back on course by taking 3 consecutive right turns instead of a left.
That's a very good point. I had been thinking about the roads around me, and that in many cases, just turning left would get you nowhere; into a dead end, or miles out of your way. A regular block system would eliminate the dead ends.
But I can't see how you can get to your intended left turn destination (in US), without having to cross the road you came in on. Doesn't that cause as much delay as turning left? You have to take a tour of the block beyond and to the right of the road you wish to reach.
Maybe US cross-roads junctions only allow cross-traffic and right filter, and don't support a left turn across traffic? Unlike most UK traffic control systems.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
A key point with the ups drivers is that they are not going a to b, but linking dozens of addresses. This gives more far more opportunity to minimise r turns than an a to b route does- simplistically you can imagine a going anticlockwise in a circle.
With regards to going round a roundabout to turn left, its cunning but pretty anti-social! You'll end up delaying people at every road on the way round. I used to do it occasionally, but decided that massively reducing the capacity of an already busy junction is not on!
A key point with the ups drivers is that they are not going a to b, but linking dozens of addresses. This gives more far more opportunity to minimise r turns than an a to b route does- simplistically you can imagine a going anticlockwise in a circle.
With regards to going round a roundabout to turn left, its cunning but pretty anti-social! You'll end up delaying people at every road on the way round. I used to do it occasionally, but decided that massively reducing the capacity of an already busy junction is not on!
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In reply to captain paranoia:
It's more that you can turn right on a red light as long as you give way to pedestrians. (As noted above)
It's more that you can turn right on a red light as long as you give way to pedestrians. (As noted above)
In reply to DancingOnRock:
That doesn't address the problem that you still have to cross the road you originally started on (and could have turned left across). Hence my pondering about whether left turns across traffic are not actually allowed at most US block intersections (crosroads).
That doesn't address the problem that you still have to cross the road you originally started on (and could have turned left across). Hence my pondering about whether left turns across traffic are not actually allowed at most US block intersections (crosroads).
In reply to DancingOnRock:
Er... yes. And, for a delivery driver going from point to point to point to point to point... it might be possible to plan a route that is more efficient by not turning across traffic.
But the specific observation I made was about a block-based layout, and a 3 right turn approach vs a single left turn. Both have to cross the same stream of traffic once. So unless it's quicker or easier to cross at right angles than it is to turn left, I don't see the benefit.
Er... yes. And, for a delivery driver going from point to point to point to point to point... it might be possible to plan a route that is more efficient by not turning across traffic.
But the specific observation I made was about a block-based layout, and a 3 right turn approach vs a single left turn. Both have to cross the same stream of traffic once. So unless it's quicker or easier to cross at right angles than it is to turn left, I don't see the benefit.
In reply to Blue Straggler:
There is one crossroad I take where, instead of turning right, I go straight over, turn on a factory entrance and go back to the junction and turn left.
The original road I exited is a minor one, facing a busy one with cars going left towards the motorway.
There is one crossroad I take where, instead of turning right, I go straight over, turn on a factory entrance and go back to the junction and turn left.
The original road I exited is a minor one, facing a busy one with cars going left towards the motorway.
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In reply to Blue Straggler:
One of my theories.
London would be a lot less clogged up if buses and lorries didn't turn right at lights without a feeder light. As soon as they do nothing else gets through the green light.
I believe someone at Imperial once modelled the reduction in pollution this would lead to as well. A positive side effect.
One of my theories.
London would be a lot less clogged up if buses and lorries didn't turn right at lights without a feeder light. As soon as they do nothing else gets through the green light.
I believe someone at Imperial once modelled the reduction in pollution this would lead to as well. A positive side effect.
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In reply to Dan Arkle:
So I did a speed awareness course recently, and they pretty much encouraged us to go all the way round the roundabout to turn left.
Also I'm pretty sure there was an episode of Myth Busters where they tested the 'only turn right' theory, from memory they found out that it takes slightly longer but used less fuel due to less stopping & starting and waiting in traffic. Obviously this show I a highly reliable source of information.
So I did a speed awareness course recently, and they pretty much encouraged us to go all the way round the roundabout to turn left.
Also I'm pretty sure there was an episode of Myth Busters where they tested the 'only turn right' theory, from memory they found out that it takes slightly longer but used less fuel due to less stopping & starting and waiting in traffic. Obviously this show I a highly reliable source of information.
In reply to SuperLee1985:
I've done three such courses (shows how effective they are!) and this has never come up in discussion! What was their logic? To save YOU time by letting you sneak in?
> So I did a speed awareness course recently, and they pretty much encouraged us to go all the way round the roundabout to turn left.
I've done three such courses (shows how effective they are!) and this has never come up in discussion! What was their logic? To save YOU time by letting you sneak in?
In reply to FactorXXX:
You drive a mile to work? Everything that is wrong about driving in this country summed up there.
> I live about a mile from where I work and that consists of four right turns and zero left turns.
> The shortest route just using left turns is about three miles and has five turns.
> Saying that, there is some validity to the concept. If I go to fill my car with petrol, I go one route there and another one back. The return one is longer, but seems more logical and strangely enough consists entirely of left turns.
You drive a mile to work? Everything that is wrong about driving in this country summed up there.
In reply to Lion Bakes:
You drive a mile to work? Everything that is wrong about driving in this country summed up there.
If it's raining, or I'm going elsewhere after work I drive. Otherwise I walk.
Is that acceptable behaviour to you?
You drive a mile to work? Everything that is wrong about driving in this country summed up there.
If it's raining, or I'm going elsewhere after work I drive. Otherwise I walk.
Is that acceptable behaviour to you?
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