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I'm pretty certain that some years ago in one of Steve McClure's columns for Climb he cited the, at that time, doctor for the British climbing team, as telling Steve that there was a physiological reason why women felt more pain when jamming than men. I'm writing about crack gloves and hence this fuzzy memory came back to me.
Are there any doctors or other people with a good grasp of human physiology who might be able to say whether this true or not? I might have just mis-remembered the whole thing but I think not, and I'm pretty certain it was the fact that the doctor was a very good climber in their own right that lent credence to the claim.
My knowledge of physiology is pretty woeful - all I can think about is women surviving the siege of Leningrad or being in the sea after the Titanic sank when men didn't, and this being linked to women have an extra layer of subcutaneous fat. But this could be a) complete bollocks and even if it is not then on simple level it suggests b) a hand jam should hurt less for women than for men!
Are there any doctors or other people with a good grasp of human physiology who might be able to say whether this true or not? I might have just mis-remembered the whole thing but I think not, and I'm pretty certain it was the fact that the doctor was a very good climber in their own right that lent credence to the claim.
My knowledge of physiology is pretty woeful - all I can think about is women surviving the siege of Leningrad or being in the sea after the Titanic sank when men didn't, and this being linked to women have an extra layer of subcutaneous fat. But this could be a) complete bollocks and even if it is not then on simple level it suggests b) a hand jam should hurt less for women than for men!
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In reply to TobyA:
Narrower hand width (on average), resulting in higher pressure on contact points? Of course, lighter weight would work the other way round, but the more you have to twist your hands (for hand jams at least), the smaller the contact areas will be. Otherwise, nothing obvious from a quick scan of the literature.
CB
Narrower hand width (on average), resulting in higher pressure on contact points? Of course, lighter weight would work the other way round, but the more you have to twist your hands (for hand jams at least), the smaller the contact areas will be. Otherwise, nothing obvious from a quick scan of the literature.
CB
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In reply to cb294:
Thanks dude! That makes it sounds reassuringly like you know what you are talking about.
Back in Finland there was a good bunch of pretty hard trad climbing women who I used to regularly meet at crags and they all seemed to wear crack gloves or even tape up. But then again so did most of the guys too so perhaps not much to conclude from that; Helsinki region granite can be pretty harsh with wicked quartz crystals in it and there are some very pure crack routes around the country, indeed the trad routes tend to be the cracks while faces get bolted.
But nobody else remember reading this in Climb? Perhaps I just imagined it... :-/
> Otherwise, nothing obvious from a quick scan of the literature.
Thanks dude! That makes it sounds reassuringly like you know what you are talking about.
Back in Finland there was a good bunch of pretty hard trad climbing women who I used to regularly meet at crags and they all seemed to wear crack gloves or even tape up. But then again so did most of the guys too so perhaps not much to conclude from that; Helsinki region granite can be pretty harsh with wicked quartz crystals in it and there are some very pure crack routes around the country, indeed the trad routes tend to be the cracks while faces get bolted.
But nobody else remember reading this in Climb? Perhaps I just imagined it... :-/
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In reply to cb294:
Thanks for the trust, but I am just a geneticist struggling to switch back from holiday to work mode, and thus had the time for a quick pubmed search.
My suspicion is that, as nb suggested, women are simply less fond of "...another set of scars to boast" (apologies to Motorhead).
CB
Thanks for the trust, but I am just a geneticist struggling to switch back from holiday to work mode, and thus had the time for a quick pubmed search.
My suspicion is that, as nb suggested, women are simply less fond of "...another set of scars to boast" (apologies to Motorhead).
CB
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In reply to john arran:
Note, John, that I did NOT ask whether women are just a bit weak and feeble when it comes to hand jamming but rather is there a physiological reason why it might actually hurt them more!
I don't think there is anything really to debate here is there? I could argue that pain is social construct to annoy Coel and all the other Darwinian materialists and biological determinists out there, but I'm not! I can't even try going back through my past issues of Climb magazine to see if I can find the article as I donated my rather huge library of Climber, Climb, OTE, High and Mountain Review back issues to the Finnish Climbing Association before I moved from Helsinki.
Note, John, that I did NOT ask whether women are just a bit weak and feeble when it comes to hand jamming but rather is there a physiological reason why it might actually hurt them more!
I don't think there is anything really to debate here is there? I could argue that pain is social construct to annoy Coel and all the other Darwinian materialists and biological determinists out there, but I'm not! I can't even try going back through my past issues of Climb magazine to see if I can find the article as I donated my rather huge library of Climber, Climb, OTE, High and Mountain Review back issues to the Finnish Climbing Association before I moved from Helsinki.
In reply to TobyA:
I'm sure I read that women tend to have thinner skin than men and thus we feel the pain when jamming more. I've found some medical stuff that backs up the thinner, less collagen containing skin in older women but don't know if it applies for younger folks.
Personally, I'm just shit at jamming and I don't think being female had a whole lot to do with it!
I'm sure I read that women tend to have thinner skin than men and thus we feel the pain when jamming more. I've found some medical stuff that backs up the thinner, less collagen containing skin in older women but don't know if it applies for younger folks.
Personally, I'm just shit at jamming and I don't think being female had a whole lot to do with it!
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In reply to nb:
As a woman, I would like to protest that I am just as capable as anyone else of a stupid masochistic ego-driven battle to the death with a crack! *g*
Replying to the original post: I believe women generally have thinner skin than men (no, literally not figuratively, quiet there in the back ...), and also a lower pain threshold.
Here's an epic literature view on gender and pain issues:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677686/#S40title
On the other hand, it's not like there aren't plenty of women crack climbers, so it's obviously not an insuperable barrier.
> Woman just don't see the point as much as men. It's an ego thing!
As a woman, I would like to protest that I am just as capable as anyone else of a stupid masochistic ego-driven battle to the death with a crack! *g*
Replying to the original post: I believe women generally have thinner skin than men (no, literally not figuratively, quiet there in the back ...), and also a lower pain threshold.
Here's an epic literature view on gender and pain issues:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677686/#S40title
On the other hand, it's not like there aren't plenty of women crack climbers, so it's obviously not an insuperable barrier.
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In reply to slab_happy:
Thanks for the link.
Yep, Shanti-Pack obviously comes to mind when thinking of stunning ability and horrendous pain tolerance.
Oddly due to birth (and I've been down the business end of two of them and will probably be there for a third by next weekend!) I would have thought women have quite an incredible pain tolerance, but then childbirth and hanging off your hand stuffed in crack are admittedly rather different things!
Thanks for the link.
Yep, Shanti-Pack obviously comes to mind when thinking of stunning ability and horrendous pain tolerance.
Oddly due to birth (and I've been down the business end of two of them and will probably be there for a third by next weekend!) I would have thought women have quite an incredible pain tolerance, but then childbirth and hanging off your hand stuffed in crack are admittedly rather different things!
In reply to slab_happy:
Totally agree - I was just doing that generalisation thing. I once learned a whole load of new French swear words from a woman crack climber! "Putaiiin de sa raaaace!!!"
I'm happier on a slab myself
> As a woman, I would like to protest that I am just as capable as anyone else of a stupid masochistic ego-driven battle to the death with a crack! *g*
Totally agree - I was just doing that generalisation thing. I once learned a whole load of new French swear words from a woman crack climber! "Putaiiin de sa raaaace!!!"
I'm happier on a slab myself
In reply to TobyA:
A few years ago I did a fair bit of research into injection systems and medical implants; I seem to remember that in general women had significantly weaker skin than men although the data was generally on thighs/neck/stomach rather than the backs of your hands.
A few years ago I did a fair bit of research into injection systems and medical implants; I seem to remember that in general women had significantly weaker skin than men although the data was generally on thighs/neck/stomach rather than the backs of your hands.
In reply to TobyA:
I didn't bother reading the whole thing but the sentence in the abstract "Consistent with our previous reviews, current human findings regarding sex differences in experimental pain indicate greater pain sensitivity among females compared with males for most pain modalities" seems to give a basic answer to your question.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1526590008009097
I didn't bother reading the whole thing but the sentence in the abstract "Consistent with our previous reviews, current human findings regarding sex differences in experimental pain indicate greater pain sensitivity among females compared with males for most pain modalities" seems to give a basic answer to your question.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1526590008009097
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In reply to TobyA: As a matter of interest, I believe that the reason that women survive being in the water better is because they have boobs. Makes the natural floating position face up rather than face down in the water.
Obviously, this is a generalisation that depends on boob size and I'm not convinced that it's sufficient reason to grow moobs
Obviously, this is a generalisation that depends on boob size and I'm not convinced that it's sufficient reason to grow moobs
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In reply to TobyA:
More related to anatomy than physiology. Men on average have shorter ape like digits than women, also shorter thumbs, I'm guessing that 'sausage'fingers also come with thicker muscle fascia.
D
More related to anatomy than physiology. Men on average have shorter ape like digits than women, also shorter thumbs, I'm guessing that 'sausage'fingers also come with thicker muscle fascia.
D
In reply to Dauphin:
Sorry just read that again and it reads like gibberish - women tend to have longer digits in ratio to palm size than men, obviously overall total hand size is on average larger in men.
D
Sorry just read that again and it reads like gibberish - women tend to have longer digits in ratio to palm size than men, obviously overall total hand size is on average larger in men.
D
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In reply to TobyA:
I recall some research that indicated women could stand a lower level of pain for longer than men, but men rated individual 'events' (such as having your foot trodden on) as less painful than women.
So the pain thresholds vary for different types of pain? Jamming can get very painful very quickly!
Also swearing increases one's tolerance to pain - so if one is less prone to swearing, perhaps one doesn't have a full arsenal of weapons to combat pain!
I recall some research that indicated women could stand a lower level of pain for longer than men, but men rated individual 'events' (such as having your foot trodden on) as less painful than women.
So the pain thresholds vary for different types of pain? Jamming can get very painful very quickly!
Also swearing increases one's tolerance to pain - so if one is less prone to swearing, perhaps one doesn't have a full arsenal of weapons to combat pain!
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In reply to joshtee2
Seem to remember that swearing actually worked better for those that didn't do it routinely. Sitting in hospital right now waiting to get a kidney stone removed, swearing stopped fecking working fecking weeks ago.
> Also swearing increases one's tolerance to pain - so if one is less prone to swearing, perhaps one doesn't have a full arsenal of weapons to combat pain!
Seem to remember that swearing actually worked better for those that didn't do it routinely. Sitting in hospital right now waiting to get a kidney stone removed, swearing stopped fecking working fecking weeks ago.
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In reply to TobyA:
Two points.
1) Women have a higher pain threshold than men; when subjected to extreme levels of pain, men will loose consciousness before women - most likely this is closely linked to a mother's need to survive giving birth.
2) Studies (e.g. putting one's own hands in very cold water) have shown that when pain is optional, men are generally better at withstanding it - women will opt to end the pain before men.
The latter seems to better fit the example of withstanding pain from jamming so I wouldn't be surprised if men were, on average, better at painful jamming due simply to them being more likely to opt to withstand the pain.
Two points.
1) Women have a higher pain threshold than men; when subjected to extreme levels of pain, men will loose consciousness before women - most likely this is closely linked to a mother's need to survive giving birth.
2) Studies (e.g. putting one's own hands in very cold water) have shown that when pain is optional, men are generally better at withstanding it - women will opt to end the pain before men.
The latter seems to better fit the example of withstanding pain from jamming so I wouldn't be surprised if men were, on average, better at painful jamming due simply to them being more likely to opt to withstand the pain.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Number ii) contradicts number i) which I suspect is largely anecdotal and mythology.
My own anecdotal off the top of my head straw poll of women vs men experiencing both chronic and acute pain in twenty years of healthcare is men are much more stoic, less vocal and use less pain control medication than their female cohorts.
D
Number ii) contradicts number i) which I suspect is largely anecdotal and mythology.
My own anecdotal off the top of my head straw poll of women vs men experiencing both chronic and acute pain in twenty years of healthcare is men are much more stoic, less vocal and use less pain control medication than their female cohorts.
D
In reply to Hyphin:
Clearly this is where I've been going wrong all this time ...
(Hope you're recovered soon.)
> Seem to remember that swearing actually worked better for those that didn't do it routinely.
Clearly this is where I've been going wrong all this time ...
(Hope you're recovered soon.)
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In reply to Dauphin:
I don't see how it contradicts it - they are two different things. As for mythology in the first point, I can't say I'm afraid - that was just my understanding which presumably came from somewhere!
> Number ii) contradicts number i) which I suspect is largely anecdotal and mythology.
>
>
I don't see how it contradicts it - they are two different things. As for mythology in the first point, I can't say I'm afraid - that was just my understanding which presumably came from somewhere!
In reply to TobyA:
Many of the most popular/classic cracks are solid hands for men (~#2 camalot size), so they're generally more painful when your perfect hand size is #1 camalot and you're jamming them on cupped hands...
Many of the most popular/classic cracks are solid hands for men (~#2 camalot size), so they're generally more painful when your perfect hand size is #1 camalot and you're jamming them on cupped hands...
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In reply to cat22:
That is surely the answer! And this only.
Generally men created the grades
> Many of the most popular/classic cracks are solid hands for men (~#2 camalot size), so they're generally more painful when your perfect hand size is #1 camalot and you're jamming them on cupped hands...
That is surely the answer! And this only.
Generally men created the grades
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In reply to TobyA:
This may be too simplistic a categorization. Rather like asking whether men or women are more or less likely to lose their car keys. There is certainly an answer, but it may or may not be illuminating. A quick review of the literature suggests that ethnicity, genetics, mental health are all factors in whether or not two people are likely to experience the same level of pain from the same event in addition to gender. This is further compounded by social and cultural expectations which may affect whether or not someone is likely to report an experience as painful. I believe fMRI is about the best you can do with respect to an 'objective' measurement of the pain that an individual actually experiences.
> I'm pretty certain that some years ago in one of Steve McClure's columns for Climb he cited the, at that time, doctor for the British climbing team, as telling Steve that there was a physiological reason why women felt more pain when jamming than men. I'm writing about crack gloves and hence this fuzzy memory came back to me.
This may be too simplistic a categorization. Rather like asking whether men or women are more or less likely to lose their car keys. There is certainly an answer, but it may or may not be illuminating. A quick review of the literature suggests that ethnicity, genetics, mental health are all factors in whether or not two people are likely to experience the same level of pain from the same event in addition to gender. This is further compounded by social and cultural expectations which may affect whether or not someone is likely to report an experience as painful. I believe fMRI is about the best you can do with respect to an 'objective' measurement of the pain that an individual actually experiences.
In reply to TobyA:
When is your review coming out? I bought a pair of the old Ocun ones ages ago (when I saw them dirt cheap) but only tried them for the first time a couple of nights ago. I had a go at the hand crack in the Manchester Depot they they made it feel like an absolute walk in the park, so much so they seem to fall in to the category of cheating.......
It looks like the new ones have improved on the issues with the pair I had.
(If anyone has managed to climb the finger crack by jamming I'd be very impressed.....)
When is your review coming out? I bought a pair of the old Ocun ones ages ago (when I saw them dirt cheap) but only tried them for the first time a couple of nights ago. I had a go at the hand crack in the Manchester Depot they they made it feel like an absolute walk in the park, so much so they seem to fall in to the category of cheating.......
It looks like the new ones have improved on the issues with the pair I had.
(If anyone has managed to climb the finger crack by jamming I'd be very impressed.....)
In reply to galpinos:
It's with editor Dan currently, so possibly in a week or so. It's sort of half a review, half an article on why crack gloves (or tape) are a perfectly sensible lifestyle choice.
> When is your review coming out?
It's with editor Dan currently, so possibly in a week or so. It's sort of half a review, half an article on why crack gloves (or tape) are a perfectly sensible lifestyle choice.
In reply to planetmarshall:
OK, sounds fair enough. Maybe the UK team doctor was talking bollocks then!
OK, sounds fair enough. Maybe the UK team doctor was talking bollocks then!
In reply to Fiona Reid:
As ever, a comparison of how much of the variance in one variable (pain while jammin') is explained by another (sex) is only valid at the level of a population. It is meaningless to say that my being male is what explains my lack of jamming pain.
> Personally, I'm just shit at jamming and I don't think being female had a whole lot to do with it!
As ever, a comparison of how much of the variance in one variable (pain while jammin') is explained by another (sex) is only valid at the level of a population. It is meaningless to say that my being male is what explains my lack of jamming pain.
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In reply to cat22:
I was going to say something very similar!
If women got to grade routes, thin hand/ off finger cracks would all drop from 5c/6a to 5b/c whereas "normal" hand jamming e.g. the file would go up!
I was going to say something very similar!
If women got to grade routes, thin hand/ off finger cracks would all drop from 5c/6a to 5b/c whereas "normal" hand jamming e.g. the file would go up!
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In reply to planetmarshall:
This is a fair and valid point, but physical factors like thinner skin mean that it may also not *be* exactly the same event in physical terms: jamming with the back of your hand against a gritty surface is going to be different depending on whether the grit is being pressed against your skin or actually puncturing through it.
> A quick review of the literature suggests that ethnicity, genetics, mental health are all factors in whether or not two people are likely to experience the same level of pain from the same event in addition to gender.
This is a fair and valid point, but physical factors like thinner skin mean that it may also not *be* exactly the same event in physical terms: jamming with the back of your hand against a gritty surface is going to be different depending on whether the grit is being pressed against your skin or actually puncturing through it.
In reply to slab_happy:
Well, either the difference is in skin thickness, for example, or in pain receptors in the skin, or in efficiency of motor neurons in relaying the signal to the central nervous system, or in circuit- synaptic- or protein-level differences in the architecture of the brain, which correspond to the 'subjective' differences you differentiate from the 'physical' ones.
I'm not convinced there's a major categorical separation - they are all 'in' the body, and not in the rock.
Well, either the difference is in skin thickness, for example, or in pain receptors in the skin, or in efficiency of motor neurons in relaying the signal to the central nervous system, or in circuit- synaptic- or protein-level differences in the architecture of the brain, which correspond to the 'subjective' differences you differentiate from the 'physical' ones.
I'm not convinced there's a major categorical separation - they are all 'in' the body, and not in the rock.
Post edited at 18:25
In reply to TobyA:
Maybe part of this perceived gender divide is levels of subcutaneous fat, when I was chubby I used to tear my hands up a lot jamming. The flesh just mushed up and rolled around. With my now leaner hands they lock with no movement, and therfore less ripping of skin. I actually think assigning pain and machismo to jamming hinders learning the art. It was only when my skin stopped ripping up I could start to learn the nuances of jamming and start to improve. I would say the usefulness of crack gloves is perhaps getting to the point of learning more quickly.
Maybe part of this perceived gender divide is levels of subcutaneous fat, when I was chubby I used to tear my hands up a lot jamming. The flesh just mushed up and rolled around. With my now leaner hands they lock with no movement, and therfore less ripping of skin. I actually think assigning pain and machismo to jamming hinders learning the art. It was only when my skin stopped ripping up I could start to learn the nuances of jamming and start to improve. I would say the usefulness of crack gloves is perhaps getting to the point of learning more quickly.
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