/ Lightroom 5 and keyword/tag advice please

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The Lemming - on 30 Jul 2017
I have recently stopped storing all my images as JPEGS and I'm converting all my RAW files to DNG files as I think this is the best alternative for me. The only problem is that I have discovered that Lightroom 5 is not saving the keywords/tags to the individual DNG files like it did with my JPEG files.

Could somebody please explain how I can save my tags to my DNG files?

I used to just select save metadata to file but for some reason this does not work.

Cheers muchly
kmhphoto - on 30 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:
In the Library panel enter grid mode "Keyboard shortcut = G", Select the images that you want to add keywords to then enter them into the "Keywording" text entry area. use a comma between each keyword, then hit enter, then update metadata "Save metadata to file" - CMD S on a mac.
Post edited at 17:37
The Lemming - on 30 Jul 2017
In reply to kmhphoto:
Yes, that is what I do. However nothing actually gets saved to a DNG file.
Post edited at 18:29
kmhphoto - on 30 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

The images on the grid should show the "photo has keywords" icon.

I'm only familiar with OSX but outside of Lightroom if you right click on a file in the finder you can then select "Get Info" and they should be seen under "Keywords".

The Lemming - on 30 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

This is really confusing me because if I export the DNG file to a JPEG file then all the tags/keywords are saved to the JPEG file.

I can then see those JPEG tags/keywords on other image viewing programs. This begs the question, is Lightroom 5 using the catalogue to export the tags/keywords to the exported JPEG files?

Or is Lightroom 5 using the tags/keywords that may or may not have been saved to the DNG files before I experimented with exporting to JPEG files?

I know that many on here love catalogues but I see them as a weakness because the catalogues can and do become corrupted. And what about many years in the future when Adobe is no longer the Industry Standard and those very same catalogues become unreadable and obsolete?

I want to save my images as Digital Negatives with the metadata baked into them rather than RAW files with that metadata saved in a sidecar file which could be lost, deleted or corrupted by mistake.

Is this a fault with Lightroom because I know how to create Tags/keywords and I know how to add them to JPEG files?
Hardonicus - on 30 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Dunno but DNG supports keyword metadata so you must have a setting somewhere?
kmhphoto - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

How are you establishing that the keywords are not stored in the DNG?
The Lemming - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to kmhphoto:
> How are you establishing that the keywords are not stored in the DNG?

I have tried right clicking on an image and looking at the details. I have also used EXIF Pilot and that too confirms that there are no tags/keywords.

I am able to save tags/keywords to JPEG files and have been able to do this for many years through using lightroom so I know this this is not a user error issue.

Does anybody know how I can save tags/keywords to DGN files with Lightroom?

Cheers



Edit
Just done an experiment with the EXIF Pilot, which I have just found nd installed. This piece of software sucessfully added a Tag/keyword to the DNG file. I was then able to import the file into Lightroom where it recognised the new tag/keyword.

This must be a Lightroom problem.
Post edited at 14:35
HeMa on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Seems like your Lightroom settings are messed up. Keywords and settings can reside with the actual photo or in a sidecar (or in the dB).
kmhphoto - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:
Once you've added the keywords to the images are they showing the icon in Lightroom?
If you select a random image are the keywords showing up in the keyword edit box in the Library panel?
Your exported images - tiffs. jpegs etc - contain metadata thats been stored in Lightroom's database.
The DNG's are only updated if you "save metadata to files".
Post edited at 15:23
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The Lemming - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to kmhphoto:


I can not make Lightroom save Tags/Keywords to DNG files but I can make other software save tags/Keywords to the DGN files which Lightroom can then read.

I can't make myself any more clearer than this.
HeMa on 31 Jul 2017
kmhphoto - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:
What you're not making clear is what you are doing to save the data to the DNG's. Its a very simple process that is usually operator error rather than an issue with Lightroom.
I'd be happy to walk you through it over the phone if you send me a private message on here I will give you my number.

Do you have "Automatically write changes to XMP" selected under PC > Edit > Catalog Settings > Metadata?
Post edited at 15:55
The Lemming - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to kmhphoto:


> Do you have "Automatically write changes to XMP" selected under PC > Edit > Catalog Settings > Metadata?

I can confirm that I have this setting.

Thank you for the kind offer of discussing this over the phone.

kmhphoto - on 31 Jul 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Always happy to help. The only way at the moment I can duplicate your problem is if I enter keywords when not in grid mode.
The Lemming - on 07 Aug 2017
In reply to The Lemming:
My confusion continues and I genuinely do not know where I am going wrong.

So far I have wiped my computer clean and reinstalled a Windows 10 operating system onto an SSD. I have deleted all Adobe Lightroom catalogues and reinstalled Lightroom 5.7. As far as I can tell, I have everything at default settings and not something that I may have ticked or changed by user stupidity.

I took a sample RAW file and added keywords to the file before saving them. This gave me a sidecar file.
I then exported the RAW file to a DNG file. I could then add keywords to that DGN file and the keywords could then be read by Lightroom.

My problem still exists though that I can not see or read any keyword files when I get windows explorer and choose properties. There are no tags or keywords.

What is even more strange is that when I use EXIF Pilot it too does not show any tags or keywords. However in the XMP properties it has an Adobe_Lightroom section where the keywords are recorded.

Some how Lightroom is recording keywords but in such a way that the keywords can only be seen and read by Lightroom.

Am I doing something wrong, or should the tags/keywords be easily read by Windows 10 file explorer and other photo viewing software?
Post edited at 14:05
Climbing Pieman on 07 Aug 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

> My confusion continues and I genuinely do not know where I am going wrong.
> So far I have wiped my computer clean and reinstalled a Windows 10 operating system onto an SSD. I have deleted all Adobe Lightroom catalogues and reinstalled Lightroom 5.7. As far as I can tell, I have everything at default settings and not something that I may have ticked or changed by user stupidity.

Note the LR 5 default is NOT to save tags to file. You can still view them in LR itself as they are in the saved catalogue, but not outwith unless you do save them either automatically or manually.

> I took a sample RAW file and added keywords to the file before saving them. This gave me a sidecar file.
> I then exported the RAW file to a DNG file. I could then add keywords to that DGN file and the keywords could then be read by Lightroom.

> My problem still exists though that I can not see or read any keyword files when I get windows explorer and choose properties. There are no tags or keywords.

Did you install the win 10 dng codec? IIRC I needed that to view in win 10 since it is not campatible as downloaded.

> What is even more strange is that when I use EXIF Pilot it too does not show any tags or keywords. However in the XMP properties it has an Adobe_Lightroom section where the keywords are recorded.
Can't comment as I have only ever used LR to add tags.

> Some how Lightroom is recording keywords but in such a way that the keywords can only be seen and read by Lightroom.

If it's not saving to file then this would be the case.

> Am I doing something wrong, or should the tags/keywords be easily read by Windows 10 file explorer and other photo viewing software?

My understanding is reading tags in Win 10 explorer will not happen unless you install the codec, but should in other software if they have this capability. Other thoughts are in your other post https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=668546&v=1#x8609492 .

I'm far from IT knowledgeable, and as I said I can view tags for DNG files in all software I use including explorer file properties. If it were me I would still think something is wrong with your version of LR and I personally would upgrade to LR6/7. Do you have LR on disc or was it a download? If you don't want to upgrade and if you bought LR 5 from Adobe can you not get a direct download from them as they will know you have it if you have registered your copy?

Afraid I can't help any more being beyond my knowledge, but a final thought ... are you getting various dialogue boxes shown when you attempt manual saves, or closing without saving tags, etc? If not I'm more inclined to think LR is corrupted.
Anyway, hope you get it sorted somehow. I do think LR is a great tool.


The Lemming - on 07 Aug 2017
In reply to Climbing Pieman:

> My understanding is reading tags in Win 10 explorer will not happen unless you install the codec, but should in other software if they have this capability. Other thoughts are in your other post https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=668546&v=1#x8609492 .

Unfortunately the Windows 10 camera codecs does not work. No matter if I download the 32bit or 64 bit versions I keep getting incompatibility error messages. And when I follow the biocompatibility instructions I still get the error message saying that the software is not intended for my version of Windows.

I'm not alone in this codecs issue for windows 10.

> If it were me I would still think something is wrong with your version of LR and I personally would upgrade to LR6/7.

This is my last option.

Cheers

HeMa on 07 Aug 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Again, as this was sort of interesting...

It's Microsoft (or Win 10) to blame.

If you save keywords and other stuff to DNGs in Lightroom 5 (.7) they will follow with in the DNG, just like with Jpegs.

Saddly Win 10 fugged up, and also won't allow you to install the Adobe 64 bit codecs (for Win 7 & 8).

The cheapest option I can see is this:
http://www.fastpictureviewer.com/codecs/

A lot cheaper than a new license for LR.

Or simple live with LR as your main tool, and always export (as Jpegs) on Need to Basis.


Or downgrade your OS to Win 7 or 8 ;).
HeMa on 07 Aug 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Oh, this seems to support both Win 10 and DNGs.
http://www.colorpilot.com/exif.html

Verify with that (as it is free), that you are indeed storing exif data on the DNG (as you should, unless your setting' are completely whacked).
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The Lemming - on 08 Aug 2017
In reply to HeMa:

> The cheapest option I can see is this:


> A lot cheaper than a new license for LR.



I had a go with the free trial and it worked a charm so I bought the licence for the princely sum of £7-98.

Thank you so much for all your help.

Cheers.


Toerag - on 08 Aug 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

Oh come on, you can't give up on your original quest now! Fix your lightroom!
The Lemming - on 08 Aug 2017
In reply to Toerag:

The quest is over.

Surely I could not be the only Windows 10 user that was having problems with DNG files?

Or do Windows 10 people only stick to JPEGS?
I'll admit that up to 9 months ago I shot everything in JPEG.
L WalterBoyd - on 09 Aug 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

You use Cmd+S (Mac) or Ctrl+S (Windows). Also, remember to first select the files you want to save the keywords to.
https://photoeditor360.com/

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