UKC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40874488

"Police Scotland has advised visitors not to come for an overnight stay on the island unless they have a reservation."

I know that when we spent a week in Plockton last year and fancied tagging on a couple of nights on Skye at the last minute, I eventually gave up trying to find somewhere to stay. (The first night would have been a Saturday, though, which you might expect to be busiest.)

It seems odd that, if there is the demand that some people in the article seem to allege, no-one is interested in stepping up to meet it.

On the other hand, if the real problem is "infrastructure" - and by that road capacity is meant - then I'm not sure simply widening the roads, and building a bigger car park for the Fairy Pools, to allow the selfie-snappers to get to and from more easily will benefit the island much.

If a lot of the growth in demand is being driven mainly by Skye having featured in a few recent films and music videos (like the "Lord of the Rings" effect in NZ) then there would seem to be a risk of blighting parts of the island with high-capacity infrastructure that ends up under-used in a few years' time.

I'm off to Skye in just over a week's time (with booked accommodation this time) so I'll be interested/concerned to see how much there is to this story.

Anyone else have any views?

In reply to Martin W:
So they build a bridge to make the island more accessible and then complain when more people visit.

In reply to Martin W:



My view is not as scenic as Skye.

If people took a tent with them to Skye they would have somewhere to spend the night.

Enjoy your trip, it is a nice place, you may be lucky in that the worst of the midges may have passed and its not yet the monsoon season

In reply to Martin W:

Off to skye a week on monday for a week have no resevations, but im wild camping. Apart from the midges can anyone see any problems with this, im on a solo trip with no fixed agenda so can please myself what i do on Skye and when.

In reply to Martin W:

Go and crash at BnB's, I'm sure he won't mind!?!?

In reply to Martin W:

A 'Tourism tax' would seem like a good idea. Certainly some investment by the local authority in improving amenities would be welcome- this goes for the NC500 route as well. There has been a massive increase in numbers on these roads and the LA needs to match this with toilets, overnight parking for motor homes etc.

People can wish all they want for the roads to be quieter, for motor homes to bugger off etc but it's not going to change so we (as a Highlander) have to look at ways of ensuring that it works for tourists and locals alike.

In reply to subtle:


Early August? I don't think so. Usually v bad until early to mid-Sept (e.g c 6-12th Sept). They often disappear completely for the year on a single day.

In reply to Russell Lovett:
Away from tourist selfie spots it's fine. Just don't expect to park easily at such a tourist hotspot, it's x20 busier than 10 years ago. Also don't expect to get anywhere quickly on a single track during the day. Any parking with a view will be occupiedby camper vans in the evening.

Once away from the road it's still Reasonably quiet.

Traffic is accentuated by people trying to do Skye in one or two days moving from photo spot to photo spot.

In reply to Lusk:

Who,s BnB?

In reply to Russell Lovett:

This guy?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=160927

Profile says he's based in Yorkshire. Seems to know his way round the Cuillin, mind.

In reply to Russell Lovett:

Wild camping will be fine so long as you don't want to be roadside where camper vans and tents will be in many lay-bys, parking spots etc. A bit off the beaten track and you'll have the place to yourself. Today did Pinnacle Ridge and had it to myself and only saw maybe half a dozen people on the initial walk in. Contrast this with a little way up the road by the Slig and it's tourist hell with coaches regularly disgorging hordes of iPad and self stick toting tourists who pose on the old bridge before being whisked off to their next stop. Yesterday out for nearly 8 hours in Red Cuillin and didn't see a soul all day. Midges bad so bring Smidge . Enjoy it and drop in at Sconser.

In reply to Martin W:

Definitely busier than it used to be...and there is actually a tender out for a big new car park at the Fairy Pools. Away from the tourist spots it's as quiet as ever. Spent the last weekend of June at Olisdal bothy and around Macleod's Maidens and saw about 3 other people away from the car.Traffic jam to get through Broadford though.

In reply to Lusk:

I'm not there this month so I won't notice until the nosy neighbours tip me the wink

Edit to add.

Skye is being over-run. It's easy to escape the crowds on foot but sometimes I want to park at the Fairy Pools too. And as for the motorhomes. Every layby from Kyle to Staffin is occupied. When they aren't crawling at barely more than parking speed along the A87.

In reply to Martin W:

I was in Skye a couple of weeks ago. We tried all sorts of places but all full. So we camped instead, and there was plenty of room in the Sligachan camp-site (where we stayed) and also in the Glen Brittle camp site. Neither take bookings so they can't be full. There could be the midge problem but there was a light breeze and it was enough.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

I wonder what the midge population of Skye is?!

In reply to John Stainforth:


Who knows! But I haven't found Skye any worse than other west coast places. Maybe better, because there's often a breeze.

In reply to Martin W:

Scottish tourism is very high this year

I) low pound
II) lots of consolidation in the market over previous decade, no building of new facilities - no room at inn.

D

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

I camped at the Slig for a couple of nights in early June and it was rammed -- many tents only a few feet apart, which was kind of worrying. The overcrowding was mainly due to the central part of the site being closed for re-seeding, but people just kept turning up and pitching (like me).

Is the site fully open again now?

In reply to Martin W:

I used to spend a lot of time on Skye around 10 years ago, but it turns out I hadn't been during the main tourist season for quite some time until this year. I spent a few weeks on Skye this summer and was genuinely shocked by what I saw. Every B&B had a 'No Vacancies' sign, the roads were very busy but no one seemed to venture more than 10 minutes from the road. Once you get past the first kilometre or two it was the Skye I know.

I spoke to some people about it and yes, the Fairy Pools and Neist point are big problem areas where the police have to come out to sort traffic out regularly apparently.

I was very saddened by what I saw but was under the impression that all this is happening because Skye is in vogue at the moment. I can easily believe that in 5 to 10 years time it will be forgotten about as some other location goes viral. I think viral is probably a good word to use because I personally believe that hype on social media is responsible for a lot of people's decisions on what they want to do on their holidays... or at least, what they want other people to think they have done.

Mehmet

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

Out of interest, what was it that saddened you?

Thanks everyone for your input so far.

I've been to Skye a number of times, but this will be the first time for the missus (except for the time that we got blown off the Glenbrittle camp site after one night and ran away).

Pity about the Fairy Pools, as I know she would like to visit and swim there. Sounds like the thing to do would be to get there as early in the day as possible - or else walk through from the Slig, which should provide some stunning scenery en route.

What is the specific attraction of Neist Point? I've never been there but it looks similar to Strumble Head in Pembrokeshire form the photos online. A nice breath of air and sea view, but nothing that makes it an obvious must-visit location for coach parties that I can see. It's certainly not on our agenda for this visit at the moment.

I'm surprised that camper vans don't get moved on from laybys. The authorities seem pretty hot on that sort of thing in other hotspots like Glencoe. Blocking turning/passing places on single track roads is something that we used to find in Pembrokeshire in the 1960s but I'd have thought that most people these days would be aware that it's not on, if only because traffic volumes have grown so much in the intervening time. (It's possible that some of the characters who did it in Pembs back in the '60s really did think that no-one would be along for ages. I'm sure, though, that some of them were just idiots. We met one fellow there who refused to reverse back into the passing space immediately behind him because it was muddy and he was afraid that he'd get his whitewall tyres dirty. Didn't take him long to realise that, when my Mum said that she could wait for him to move because she wasn't in a hurry, she meant it.)

Do the coach parties get put off by bad weather, or do the operators have to make sure that their customers get to tick off all the promised sights?

Another piece about the issue in yesterday's Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/09/skye-islanders-call-for-hel...

...tensions erupted earlier this week after a tour bus trying to park disturbed a family funeral at a church in Glen Brittle

Nice.

I wasn't aware of the arrival of "cruise ships" mentioned in the article. I was going to say that 2,200 passengers doesn't sound too bad, but it seems that's more than half the capacity of some of the floating apartment blocks that are ruining Venice so I can see that they could well be problematic.

I also note the reference to the rise in Airbnb lettings. I do hope it's not getting the "buy-to-airbnb" disease that seems to be taking hold in Edinburgh (as an aside, it's noticeable how many foreign-registered cars are parked in the streets round my way, on the southern outskirts of the city, at the moment - it's festival season, of course).

The majority of politicians seem to believe that tourism is good for their local economies, but it looks like more and more actual local people are starting to react against the downsides: https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2017/aug/10/anti-tourism-marches-spread-...

The root of the problem, IMO, is that too many people can't be trusted to behave themselves in a civilised way - especially so when they're on holiday, when some seem to treat the places they visit as just another theme park rather than real places populated by real people who, not unreasonably, want to be able to get on with their normal daily lives.

In reply to Martin W:

Funny that when people complain about too many tourists they never seem to include themselves. Rather like sitting in a traffic jam, complaining about the volume of traffic.

In reply to Martin W:

About 20 years ago, in Mallaig, the evening before we got the ferry to Rum; I had to laugh when I overheard some people from a coach trip saying "Tomorrow we're doing Skye, then in the afternoon Loch Ness".

In reply to Hat Dude:

To really do sky, you need to sit in your tent for three days, drinking wine from the bottle, cause the weathers so .... theres nothing else to do!

It does make the days when out and about even more sweeter though!

In reply to Martin W:
I've been visiting Skye for more than 20 years, sometimes in the peak season, sometimes out of it. The main tourist hotspots have always felt quite busy. An exception to that is the Fairy Pools, up until about 10 years ago they were very quiet, maybe a few small groups and if you went at say 6pm perhaps no one or just the odd walker / climber returning from the Cuillin. I've got a copy of Daniel Start's original "Wild Swimming" book which was published in 2008. The Fairy Pools are actually listed as a potential skinny dipping spot. You would have to be an extreme exhibitionist to try that these days.

My profile picture is me swimming in the Fairy Pools. It is a couple of years since we where last on Skye and whilst we managed to get a spot in the car park on each occasion we visited the pools, there was a lot of inconsiderate parking on the verges. The Pools were packed with people, although hardly anyone in the water. Almost felt like you were putting a show on for the gathered crowds. It seems it may have got worse. Next time I think I will walk from Sligachan.

In reply to Hat Dude:


I have been over a hundred times and I'm still discovering new delights. Nowhere else in the UK has such a range of wonders. It's the variety as much as the spectacle.

In reply to Hat Dude:


I had a similar experience at about the same time, I can't remember exactly where we were, but somewhere scenic near to a car park. A coach pulls up and the driver say "5 minutes" one of the Australian tourists uses one of those minutes to explain to us that they are touring the "whole of Scotland" in two days.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I think that in both articles I linked it's the locals that are complaining about the tourists.

If you're referring to my last post, I was specifically highlighting behaviour as an issue, not volume.

In reply to Martin W:

I found picking up a magazine and starting to read does get the message across

In reply to Martin W:


and (whisper it) takes you right by some pools which are every bit as good..!

(though I don't think there's an underwater arch at them)

In reply to Martin W:

I've worked on Skye for the last 20 years and it has been busier than I have known it, but as has been said before on this thread away from the roads and hot spots it's the same as it was. Having struggled through the crowds in Somerled square found a queue of cars waiting for my parking space and then struggled to find the same at Sligachan I have been pleasantly surprised to get Bruach na Frithe to myself.
Just don't expect to enjoy the driving!

In reply to ScraggyGoat:
Any parking with a view will be occupiedby camper vans in the evening.

I think it was when I was on Coll that I heard that they insisted that Camper vans used designated areas,( and I think you may have needed a reservation before coming, not sure on that point. )

Either way, some controls are needed.

There is a very nice Eco campsite at Armadale, lovely people.
http://skyeforestgarden.com/

I particularly liked the notice in the toilet not to remove the spiders web from the window frame ( no glass) as that was all that was the only thing that protected you from the midge.
( all waste products are recycled)

In reply to Jim C:

>


Just for my UKC peers, please don't spread the word, there is a beautiful little walk laid out through the woods on the headland shared with the campsite, complete with hammocks, tree house, seal and otter hide, sheepskin duck walk etc. 15 mins to hurry around the peninsular but do take a couple of hours and soak up the surprising variety of perspectives. Combined with an ice cream at the pier it's a perfect half day family outing.

In reply to Jim C:

I remember camping there back in late spring 2002 when the last ferry to the mainland was cancelled due to bad weather. I asked a passing lady if she knew of anywhere I could camp overnight, and she said she had some land. She wouldn't take any money and I don't think it was officially a campsite at that point - just some overgrown land behind a (from memory) slightly hippy-ish gift shop. It was nice and peaceful when I wandered back from the Ardvasar Hotel - until about midnight when other campers in a nearby clearing started dancing round a campfire and drumming until the dawn.

Nice place though, and I'm sure its more glamping and less woad now.

In reply to BnB:

Thanks for that.


As performed by Chuck Berry when he was moonlighting as a second-hand car dealer?

In reply to Martin W:



Ewe know it

In reply to BnB:


I arrived with a fellow tourer on bikes and they were really full, it was pissing down we were drenched having ridden in that all day through Skye , we ended up being given a tasty hot meal, dried off in front of their fire and we were later invited to sleep in front of their fire.
( instead of under their log shelter that we were eying up as our best option)

They did not take any money, I later made a donation, and did so the next year too when I again remembered their kindness.

In reply to Martin W:

OK, thought I'd add an update following my return from the Misty Isle.

We stuck our noses briefly down Glen Brittle for the OH's benefit, on the off-chance that the Fairy Pools Experience wasn't as horrific as had been portrayed in the media. It is. The verges are being torn apart by vehicles parking off the edge of the single-track tarmac - there were some huge ruts, very likely caused by numpties getting stuck. There were two "no stopping" signs on the left hand side as you headed downhill towards the official - but grossly inadequate for the demand - car park: both had cars & vans parked right next to them. I doubt that they are ever enforced, which makes them utterly pointless (and IMO simply encourages more general, widespread abuse of traffic regulations). The made path to the pools was extremely busy: I can understand why it's needed, given the numbers of visitors, but looking at it from the road I could for the first time understand the Cornish term "emmets" (ants) for tourists.

Half a mile uphill from the horrible mess in the vicinity of the Fairy Pools car park, the Forestry Commission's (admittedly not particularly large) Square Mile car park was half empty. Go figure.

We ran away as quickly as possible.

It was announced last week that Highland Council have committed £100K to fund the expansion of the Fairy Pools car park from 30 cars to 137 cars and 20 minibuses/campervans: http://www.scotsman.com/regions/inverness-highlands-islands/skye-s-fairy-po... I can understand why this is felt to be needed, but it's not going to do anything to reduce the pressure of visitors on the place which is what makes it far from the idyllic location that it used to be when only hairy-arsed walkers and climbers ever bothered going down Glen Brittle. I can't see it helping the traffic volumes on the still single-track-with-passing-places Glenbrittle road, either.

I can't help wondering whether a park-and-ride near the Talisker distillery, with a shuttle bus service to the Fairy Pools, might not be a more sustainable long-term solution which wouldn't involve tarmacing ever more of the glen simply to accommodate the five-minute-visit-including-selfie hordes. Ultimately, it's not so much the sheer numbers that I find disquieting: it's the selfish, bloody-minded abuse of the area that these people have come to visit - presumably because of its supposed natural beauty - that I find difficult to make sense of.

A few days later we drove past the car park provided for The Storr, and it was a very similar story. Vehicles abandoned (it would be too charitable to describe most of them as having been "parked") for hundreds of metres along the verge of the A855. There are double yellow lines there, obviously being policed with the same lack of diligence as the no stopping signs in Glen Brittle. And, again, another car park within half a mile that was nowhere near full. Apparently the Staffin Community Trust wants to fix this by...enlarging the car park. I can't help feeling that this simply concentrates the problem in one place, when a bit of lateral thinking might be able to spread the load a bit and reduce the overall impact.

Apart from the above, Skye was mostly lovely. The midgies weren't too bad, and even seemed to be kept fairly effectively at bay this time by Avon Skin So Soft (which had failed miserably against the beasties at Loch Creran and the Invercoe camp site a few years back). Our cottage had a fine view of Bla Bhainn and the Red Cuillin. We had a golden eagle regularly patrolling the ridge behind the cottage, and a merlin in the fields nearby. We saw more seals than you could shake a stick at, a fair few red deer, three pods of dolphins, the odd porpoise and plenty of other more commonly-seen but nonetheless welcome wildlife. And, of course, sheep. The walk to the Point of Sleat was pleasant (although horribly boggy for the bit over the shoulder of the hill once you were turned off the landrover track at the gate - I couldn't help wondering, given that the Land Reform Act has been in force for twelve years now, about the legal status of the roughly 25-hectare gated enclosure around the half dozen or so properties there which basically forces you on to that less-than-ideal route). Despite the doom-laden forecasts the weather was consistently very amenable; it did rain heavily once or twice, but almost always at night when we were tucked safely up in our beds! Not to be forgotten, either was the thoroughly enjoyable concert at the Gaelic College on the Tuesday night given by Adam Sutherland, Mairearad Green, Anna Massie and Hamish Napier - truly uplifting stuff.

Would we go back? Most definitely. But with better plans as to where to go and how to get about (I had only ever been to the Slig and Glen Brittle before, so I was still getting used to finding my away about the island this time). And avoiding at all costs the places that the coach parties go! (We encountered a classic of that genre as we passed by The Quiraing: coach completely occupying the passing place opposite the cemetery, and a party of fifty-odd folks some of whom were indeed wearing crocs or flip-flops, and apparently all intent on ascending 300ft of rough moorland to gain the main path.)

And if we do back, we will need to book ahead: I don't think I saw a single "Vacancies" sign all the time were were there, so accommodation is clearly tight, at least at this time of year.

One final point: a number of folks mentioned Rubha Phoil aka the Skye Forest Garden. When passing through Armadale coming off the ferry I noticed that there was an "under new management" sign there. Does anyone know any more about this? Has it made any difference to the place? We didn't call in this time, but it would be good to know whether it would be worth a visit another time.

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:
Well, let's hope so. Skye has been totally on the tourist radar for the last few years due to new films and promotional videos on trip advisor (Nort Coast five hundred e.g.), but things come and go. About 15 years or so ago my mum (in Germany) was talking to some lady from my dad's work and saying that I (her daughter) lived in Scotland and that they had been to see me and I had taken them to Skye. The snotty woman said ' Ohh, Skye, I have been there years ago, that's so passe". We still laugh about this. Hopefully, this will be another fad...However, clearly, tourism is a big earner on Skye which is great, but it has to be managed. 20 years ago, you would have struggled to find more than one car parked at the Fairy pools, but what do people expect if it's advertised everywhere with a monstrous path suitable for all? Then you need to put in place the car parking and the facilities such as toilets and bins to go with it. Maybe even charge for it? (Controversial..., but after what I have seen there the last couple of years...I might even come round to the dark side)

In reply to Martin W:

Policed with a lack of diligence is a bit unfair.
On Monday there were 3 cops for the whole island and one was stuck in court.
There have been occasions recently when there's been just one.

Policing for the whole west coast needs a rethink.

In reply to Martin W:

Go to Shetland. For coastal scenery, welcoming locals, amazing sea food. NO MIDGES (well almost). The sea cliff climbing looks the dogs and the possibility of new routing looks tremendous. We'll it did from my kayak.

More wildlife (apart from the midges) than u can shake a stick at.

Admittedly no mountains.....

Only one sleep from Aberdeen.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to rogerwebb:

Sorry, perhaps a poor choice of words. The "lack of diligence" applies more to the officials who put regulations in place without any consideration as to whether sufficient resources are in place to police them, rather than the police officers themselves. (Remind you of any other recent instances of bad things happening because the body responsible for enforcing regulations has had its headcount slashed?)

Three police for Skye, you say? When I was discussing it with the OH I jokingly suggested there were only 1½. I didn't expect to be wrong only by a factor of two. I think I must have seen all three of them on the Thursday when the junction at the Slig was closed following an accident involving a motorcycle and a bicycle. We were only held up for 20 minutes, though, which wasn't bad in the circumstances. (I understand that the riders involved both suffered quite serious, but not life-threatening, injuries, which puts an enforced wait in the car in pleasant surroundings sharply into perspective.)

In reply to Heike:


Why ever not? This stuff doesn't get built and maintained for free, despite what some folks seem to assume.

I spotted an editorial in the West Highland Free Press last week, insisting that 'Skye is open for business' but just needs money spending on infrastructure.

http://www.whfp.com/2017/08/17/editorial-despite-reports-elsewhere-skye-wel...

The article was very dismissive of the idea of a local tourist tax, offering all sorts of non-arguments about the difficulties of its collection which seem to utterly ignore the fact that plenty of other popular tourist destinations seem to manage it perfectly well. I've definitely been charged tourist tax on bills in Naples, Amalfi and on Sicily. If they can manage to collect the tax in southern Italy, it really can't be that difficult (though I'll admit that whether the monies get to the intended budgetary pot afterwards might be a slightly different issue...)

No, according to the WHFP Skye just needs to get its 'fair share' of national tax revenues (although no figures were offered to quantify that) with perhaps a bit of a top-up from the Inverness city deal pot. I think they might find that the contents of that particular purse have already been earmarked; you don't tend to get funds from central government without some kind of explanation of what they're going to be spent on...

In reply to Martin W:

In most places in the Alps/Continental Europe you pay a tourist tax for taking the rubbish away etc, usually a Euro a day or so for adults. I think that's only fair as you are going to produce rubbish, need the toilet etc. and the stuff doesn't disappear on its own.

In reply to Martin W:

Sorry shouldn't have been so defensive.
I just know how hard those cops have been working, part of which is my fault as I'm the defence!

Still a great place to work

In reply to Martin W:

I was there a few years back in the summer. My companions and I had epic on the ridge, due to bad weather. Retreated to Portree, only to find all the tents on the campsite had been flattened. Phoned every guest house, hotel and bnb, with no luck. Finally ended up sleeping in the car at 02:00, me, my wife and two kids.

One October the ferry to Harris was cancelled, due to a huge storm. Again no bnb's available, as it was off season. Managed to get a room at Sligachan.
"The ferry has been cancelled, you say? That's terrible. That will be £140, for the night, please." He said with glee.

In reply to Martin W:

Was in Skye Friday to Monday and the issues for me were about actually getting there, moving about wasn't that bad (Glenbrittle road was busy but not unmanageable)
But the A86/A87 and especially the A82 were a **** nightmare with 35 mph crocodiles on & off the throttle with no rhyme or reason, so much so it was a relief to get behind a bus that actually just travelled at a steady speed.

Accommodation issue is different (being a privileged BMC hut dweller) and not really solvable without planning changes and investment. And the season is probly short enough for the Japanese tourists that yourinvestment might be quite hard to get a return on. Any tourism experts on here?
(And I can't resist this one) - and no more EC Development Finding to be had to help,the skint local authority to create income opportunities from.....

In reply to colinakmc:


Yep, the nice new bit of road at the top end of the Sleat peninsula giving easier access from Armadale to Broadford is by no means the first stretch of road I've seen in the Highlands with discreet (and sometimes not so discreet) roadside acknowledgement of EU funding assistance.

In reply to andyjohnson0:

nothing worse than a camper around a fire drumming until dawn..there are solutions but many I can think of aren't legal

In reply to Martin W:

Skye in may this year was sunny warm and quiet, with nobody on the ridge. Nothing like any of the comments here

In reply to PCD:

Funnily enough I was on Skye during the good weather in May too, and would have agreed had we not tried to find a bed in Portree - everywhere full - or driven to Neist - stupidly busy. This was on a weekday outside any school holidays.

In reply to Martin W:

I was surprised that the Isles are now visited by so many cruise ships and you'd think that at least they provided an income to their ports of call; however a recent program about those stopping at Orkney showed that they're a very mixed blessing to the island's economy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40731839

In reply to Martin W:
Insightful Facebook commentary by Jamie B, deserves wider circulation -

https://www.facebook.com/jamie.bankhead/posts/10155788035904994

In reply to Adam Long:

but they weren't on the ridge, thank god!

In reply to The New NickB:
My friend skinny dipped in the Fairy pools last year in June, and was not exhibitionist, perhaps as it was prior to school holidays. He did get skinny midged though..
I suppose it was late in the day too, as we had been up on the ridge, so perhaps the hoards had gone to get fed.

In reply to LizS:

I can't imagine they do a lot for the air quality sitting there emitting diesel fumes

In reply to Bob Aitken:

aye - keep the poor hoi poloi from Skye at all costs

In reply to wercat:

You can choose to interpret it that way, but not really what I'm driving at.

In reply to Jamie B:

yes, I'm sorry for being a bit bloody minded - I can see what you're getting at and I partly agree - however, living in Cumbria I also see what is happening in terms of making visitors spend more and how that affects those of us who have to be more careful - the YHA thread is a case in point.