UKC

Hi All,

Will be visiting UK from Abroad ,I am planning to go to peak district, for 4 days, new to trad.

The plan is to climb at Stanage edge , trying to figure out if i should bring single 70 meter 9.7mm or two half ropes 50 meters 8.5mm.

also is there any multi-pitch in the crag or nearby area ?

Appreciate any help

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

One half rope in double over fine for most routes I would think

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

I'd bring the half ropes, but the 70 would also do since you could use it doubled or as a single according to the route. There are some 2 pitch routes on the limestone, and Hen Cloud has multi pitch on grit.

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:




I'd bring the two 50m ropes in case the 70m gets damaged, and on longer Limestone routes two are better where
routes may 'meander'.
Take a look at the ZOOMTOPO.com website? It shows amazing 'up close' views of Stanage climbs, and other crags

In reply to brianjcooper:


In case one gets damaged?!?? is that a thing?

In reply to ashtond6:

Not sure what you mean? Or is it my bad grammar.
A rock landed close to the middle of one of my ropes rendering it almost useless.

In reply to brianjcooper:
no the grammer is fine - just didn't understand quite what you meant.

I guess that can happen but its pretty rare on gritstone. My friend lost a rack of friends in a chimney in Yosemite but you wouldn't take a double double set in case of this!

In reply to ashtond6:



True.
I bet he was crying all the way to the top. I've dropped gear into the sea before. Bugger!

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

To answer your other question, there's no meaningful multipitch at Stanage. Your best bet for multipitch on grit would be the Roaches.

Rope-wise, I usually take either a 35m single or one 60m half, used doubled. Almost everything is under 20m.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Is it wise to double a single rope?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Absolutely fine, just a bit heavier than using a half.

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

We climb on Stanage with a single 10mm 60m rope. We use it single on the straight up stuff, and double it up on a route that weaves about. I generally prefer it over half ropes on grit as it's more abrasion resistant than a skinny rope.

Gear-wise, make sure you have a decent rack of friends as a lot of the cracks and breaks on grit can be parallel (although there are usually good nut placements too). I personally carry a friend of each size from 0-3 for a day on the grit plus a couple of bigger ones in my sack for any wide cracks.

In reply to tehmarks:


Girdle traverse?

In reply to ianstevens:

If it's fine why do half ropes exist?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Lighter

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
^

They also stretch a bit more, making them more comfy to fall on and lessening the impact force on runners and you. Also spread the force of any fall between two pieces (although not equally) which may help if they're marginal. On short grit routes stretchy halves are probably, IMO, more dangerous, as you're always so close to the ground and extra stetchiness increases your chance of befreinding it (and a pair of crutches to boot)

In reply to Jon Stewart:


There's multipitch routes on a few gritstone crags, but I generally wouldn't bother seeking them out specially unless the OP really wants the practice. They're mostly normal-ish gritstone length routes where you need to belay on a ledge halfway to avoid some complicated rope drag issues rather than thrilling mountain adventures full of drama and commitment, those people who got benighted on Valkyrie notwithstanding.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

...and most of those complicated rope drag issues can easily be overcome with two ropes and extending a runner or 2. I've never done the Hen Cloud routes (except Encouragement) but they really are multi-pitch.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

What were your views on Encouragement?

In reply to Offwidth:

great route, tricky. yours?

In reply to Offwidth:


Needed to be done in two pitches

In reply to Jon Stewart:

So you don't think that it'd possible to expose the leader to excessive force if taking a fall onto two single rated ropes clipped at the same height?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

I've no idea. It's not the kind of thing that bothers me - all of the risk in trad climbing is in falling off and hitting something and that depends on where the gear is and whether it holds. The diameter of one's rope is not going to make a significant contribution to the overall risk of getting hurt.

In reply to ianstevens:
Diameter of rope is absolutely no indicator at all of the stretchiness of the rope. Impact force gives you soem measure, but direct comparison is difficult as the tests for a half rope are done with a 50kg weigh as opposed to an 80kg force so resultant impact force is bound to be higher. Stretch has to do with the tightness of twist of the core. Most skinny doubles for example have a higher or equal impact force to fatter ropes.

As for lighter to the other poster? What a load of cobblers. A 10mm Mammut Galaxy (a fat single) is 68g/m whilst an 8mm double is 42g/m but you need 2. So their thinnest ropes are still 1/3 heavier than a pretty fat single. The only way you'd be able to claim it's lighter is if you were carrying one and doubling it over, and even then the weight that you are dragging is still the same as using two!

Pretty much only reasons for double ropes (in rock climbing atleast) are as follows (fully expect someone to come and put me in my place with a few more seeing as I've been a bit bolshy):

Drag - if the route wanders you can reduce friction caused through runners by clipping alternate ropes, or directing them your ropes up seperate lines to make use of geometrically divergent placements. That said if you extend sufficiently well, you'll have no problem on a great many routes.

Reducing impact force - by placing gear in parallel, i.e. putting pieces in very close to one another and clipping one rope into one piece and the other rope into the other, you are halving the impact force on the pieces reducing the chance of a placement failing, or if it does having a second which will see a reduced impact due to the other having taken some of the force.

A fall onto double ropes where the force is not at least partially spread between pieces does absolutely nothing to reduce impact force unless the rope you are using in preferance to a single rope is more stretchy. Or the person magically loses weight

And abseiling more than 25m.

In response to the OP, bring either a double or a thin triple rated single as you will be able to climb just about anything in England with it. The only time you migh need a second rope is on particularly wandering pitch, or if you need to do a full length abseil, which frankly is not that common. If yu have baggage restrictions and are buy ropes specifically fo the job, it's the most versatile option - get a 60m one and you can still do 30m pitches - that's longer than most crags in the peak district.

In reply to beardy mike:


I am aware. However in practice every single half I have owned has been more stretchy than any single I have owned.


That's exactly the comparision being made; two halves and a doubled single (i.e. two strands of either whilst on the route)






30 m, we live in a world of 60m ropes

In reply to ianstevens:


Ahh OK - I see what you mean. Not sure why you'd bother though - it's so rare that you really need double ropes especially when you're just starting out. A single will be less confusing for a trad newbie - you see so many beginners in a veritable cats cradle because we brits seem to have a slavish obsession with using double ropes... all you need is some slings

PS - if your double ropes are more stretchy but have similar impact forces and similar stretch rates under the same loading, how does that work then...

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Those *Legends* I think you mean.

In reply to nufkin:

Where I've defined meaningful as the stereotypical 'several pitches in an upwards direction' meaning of multipitch. Girdle traverses and short routes needing to be pitched for drag-related reasons not included!

In reply to beardy mike:

You missed that being tied to two ropes feels less scary than only being tied to one!

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

A friend of mine was killed because his single rope caught over a sharp edge when he fell off. If he had been using doubles he would probably have been fine.

Al

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

The poor OP is probably cancelling his ticket as we speak after such a torrent of misguided and irrelevant drivel.

To OP it's fun enjoy.

In reply to Pedro50:



Agreed. I think the OPs thread has been somewhat hijacked! Enjoy your stay OP

thank you all for the input, i actually learned few new things in which i appreciate !

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

i have a question Cheese Monkey if i use half rope as double, what my belayer will do ? the belayer will follow via figure 8-knot through loop using locking carabiners on his belay loop ?

In reply to brianjcooper:

thanks the website is amazing !!!

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:


There are lots of methods, all with virtually no additional risk. Personally, I do the whole-body larksfoot which then gets laughed or frowned at by pretty much everyone, especially when I try to undo the thing at a hanging belay (you won't have that problem in the Peak). So, I guess I'm saying don't do this (although it's perfectly fine in many circs).

Let's see what the cross-load obsessed UKC nerdosphere can come up with in terms of useful advice (probably none, they'll just argue about stuff that contributes only infinitesimal risk to the game of trad climbing, in which you're far more likely to get injured by either falling off with all safety gear done to the highest possible standard but the ground gets in the way, or by doing something genuinely stupid like forgetting to tie in or abseiling off the tails).

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:


Or often just tie a thick figure of eight, in the normal way, but using both ropes. Or sometimes the leader ties into the middle in that way.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

if you can do a step-through Lark's foot, why not the step-through Bowline? Possibly my favourite knot!

In reply to Jon Stewart:
The infamous Chris Tan death knot.... saves a lot of rope and bulk at the tie-in. Not done Encouragement btw, but seen a few mini epics.

Every time the half rope benefits get listed on UKC a few key ones get missed off: much simpler top belays; flexibility if a rope gets jammed (eg Pedestal route on Roaches... tie off the stuck rope and continue up on the other); gives you a safer tag line to collect the gear you forgot to get from your belayer; allows backrope protection posibilities for a nervous second on a traverse; beter facilitaes a 'three rope' two person belay (useful on routes like Wuthering to stop a slip falling back into the gully.... only really E1 this way). Then there is advanced stuff, as an example, tieing off and weighting a skyhook on one rope and using it for a runner on the other.

I take Beardy Mike's point about some beginners and tangles but most seem better than that in my wide experience (and I'm not sure I want to encourage really clumsy people to climb) and lower grade routes usually have more ledges you really don't want to hit in a fall, so two ropes can be a lot safer and the (hopefully) more experienced belayer with them wont be fussed about the belaying but can worry less otherwise.

Having done a lot of long trad pitches in the US I know it doesn't take much route wandering to make the extra drag reduction beat the weight increase of half ropes (given all the extra slings and long extrenders you would otherwise need). I find it bizzare people climb with a second rope in a rucsack for the raps.

In reply to Adam Long:

Sounds good, but I can't visualise it?

In reply to Adam Long:

Yes, .. do tell.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


I usually do the latter because it leaves the ends free to untwist.

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

That's it mate that is what I do

In reply to Offwidth:
Start with middle of rope bight, pass through leg and waist loops as normal to tie in. At this point stepping through the loop would give you a Lark's foot. Instead make the bowline starting twist 'rabbit-hole', poke the bight 'rabbit' through it in the direction required by the twist, then instead of going 'round the tree', pull the bight over your head and step through it as per Lark's foot. Ta-dah, bowline! Adjust it down and neaten.

The great thing about this knot is it removes the major issue with bowlines - it can't work loose and come undone - whilst remaining small, neat and easy to untie. Also stronger than standard bowline.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

re. faling on both strands of a folded 10mm full rope


Best fall you'll ever take! Seriously... I've had loads, you really can't tell the difference between a full rope baby-bouncer and a single strand half rope catch except on two strands there's often no swing across the face to deal with and it's rather more reassuring as you whistle down past 2 fat ropes in 2 bits of gear

OP: Stanage is a good base to learn trad climbing, the placements are generally good and obvious. It's never more than about 20m, generally <15m with simple crack/boulder belays at the top so any one of your ropes will do, just fold it in half if you want two strands (or bring a half rope). Pretty much everything at Stanage is best climbed in a single pitch though many routes could be split up simply for the sake of doing so if you're mad keen to experience climbing in pitches.
jk

In reply to jkarran:

Yeah, real world experience is that you can't tell the difference even on an 11mm. Besides, there is data on the "fall on 2 strands of a full rope" scenario for triple rated ropes.
Singe: impact force for 80kg 1 strand
Half: 55 kg 1 strand
Twin: 80kg on 2 strands

Last time I looked it up I seem to remember it was 10-20% increase in impact force falling on 2 strands rather than one. Ropes aren't hookian springs I guess...

In reply to Adam Long:

Using one rope or both (as one) to make the rabbit hole? Do you have a picture of the knot formed as I've tried various ways and it doesn't look right.

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:






The advantage of climbing at Stanage is that after successfully sending a route, one can reach down and shake hands with the belayer in celebration.

In reply to Si_G:

Don't be silly.
.
.
.
That's Burbage.

At Stanage the belayer needs to do a little jump in order to high five your downward stretched hand.

In reply to Offwidth:

Both. The 'step through' bowline is a bowline on the bight.

In reply to ianstevens:


That's largely not true the lower impact force quoted is mostly due to the lower weight being tested. The easiest way to verify this is to compare the stats of triple rated ropes with those of singles and halfs. Triple rated ropes quote stats for both 80kg and 55kg tests

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I looked systematically at single rope diameter vs claimed 80kg impact force for the various manufacturers a while back.

It seems to vary manufacturer to manufacturer but for some of them diameter and impact force correlate the opposite way to expected so lower impact force for the fatter rope. I.E the "use a skinny half to reduce impact force" is not true.

This make sense in terms of individual strands within the core equalising, more strands: longer time to equalise and therefore more impact absorption.

In reply to Offwidth: in this case I am making a recommendation to someone who is starting out, hasn't trad climbed, is going to climb somewhere where a double thin single will work adequately should they want to double it over and provides a versatile system. They are asking if they need 2 doubles and a single, when really all then need is a single to suit all. Of course there are other reasons for doubles, but not ones you're likely to find when you are climbing diff - hvs. The most compelling argument is being able to place gear in nests to half the impact on your gear. But speaking from a teaching point of view, singles just give you less to think about in an already complicated process where mistakes count.

As for climbing with a rope in your pack, carrying a second full rope is extremely odd. Carrying a thin pull down cord on the otherhand is not - works perfectly for long moderate alpine routes which are long and you don't need the clutter of double ropes... but that's a different story!

In reply to beardy mike:

No need for doubles on diff to HVS? Try doing Dream of White Horses, chequers buttress or valkerie at the roaches without doubles. Even some severes in the lakes and Snowdonia are best protected with doubles. Maybe we should tell people not to use cams before they climb e1? It's a climbers assessment as to what kit they carry.

In reply to JohnBson:

He's not climbing Dream though is he. He's climbing short peak district routes, unlikely to be traverses for he first time. If you read what I said, one of the only reasons to use double ropes is to avoid drag like you get on dream. Or valkyrie and chequers buttress. And if he does decide to do a route which traverses he can double up his 30m skinny single and use it as a double. Go back and read what I wrote again properly and see whether you can find real fault with it without getting your knickers in a twist

In reply to beardy mike:

I taught more students than I can remember in our Uni club the use of double rope technique from their first lead trips outdoors. There were very few problems, they were already fine on basics and keen enough to be worth investing more time with. They were much safer when leading (and not just drag... those long extenders and slings unless the route is straight up mean you are much more likley to hit something in a fall on a lower grade route and simplifying the belay process is also a big gain) and after a few sessions they could belay me on stuff I wanted to do, which was part of the deal for the free instruction. The risks more than balanced in my view and the benefits were way better medium to long term. We also ran a system of half ropes 'loans' for experienced climbers in the club for the duration of their membership (or until the rope needed retiring) which was massively easier for the club to administer (the member was mostly responsible for logging the rope use), cheaper and more suitable for our mixed use summer and winter. It worked well for us... for more sport focussed clubs it would have been daft.

Seen lots of climbers carry a standard half rope in their rucksack in Red Rocks, NV on and around my moderate graded climbs. A retrieval cord is maybe a bit specialist for such local weekend warriors.

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

How on earth did this get to 55 posts?

In reply to Offwidth:
Flippin heck - this is a circular argument. I agree there is nothing wrong with double ropes or teaching people how to use them. My original answer was in reference to the OP. What you did at university is completely irrelevant - he can't loan double ropes, he has to buy them. My point all through this 55 post (now 56 post) thread is that he could get everything he needs from one thin single for his trip to the peak district.

PS you're not the only one with teaching experience.

In reply to beardy mike:
Maybe its circular because you don't seem to get that climbing Diffs is where double rope techniques can have the biggest safety benefits for reasons you seem to have written off. Lower grade routes tend to wander a bit more following the easiest line and have more drag to mitigate against, and lower angles and things to hit in a fall. Most beginners don't realise how far they will go in a fall and adding the length of a sling can make the fall a metre longer and cause more of a swing and so be more likely to hit something and less likely to be in a controlled fall when they do. Simpler top belays are also a real important benefit you seemingly ignored. Another benefit I forget to mention earlier was you get the newer climber to focus on which rope they are clipping and why... getting people thinking is important and it builds practice in problem solving and distracts a little from the fear (if fear is really dominating the route is too hard for the climber).

The university bit (20 years looking after the club gear) was only to illustrate why I started out teaching on half ropes... I still advise the techniques today.

Both methods are obviously valid and have different benefits and problems but I prefer belaying on half ropes for less technically adept leaders. I'd much rather new leaders have the most important issues clear in their heads than worry about more advanced stuff like gear nests (something that should rarely be a need for concern for a Diff leader). I'd always advise a newer leader to get as much traffic with an experienced belayer as they can whatever rope system they use. Lots of experienced people on UKC have helped newer climbers in the past so its always worth posting here if you are concened.

In reply to Offwidth:
Can you please just read what I wrote. I've studied for MIA and I design climbing kit for a living so get what you are talking about. The way you're talking is to be honest just a tad OTT. The very first thing I said was that one of the only reasons to use double ropes is to avoid drag on wandering routes, and the next thing I said was that it helps optimise your protection possibilities. But I also think you can get away with a single rope on MOST if not all routes. Can I refer you back yet f*cking again to the fact that I said a single rope used folded over as a double will give the OP everything he needs for a fraction of the cost for his first trad climbing trip. Can you explain to me why that is wrong? Or are you just being obtuse?

In reply to beardy mike:

A folded rope is a double rope system. On the vast majority of my grit trips thats what I do and a folded half works better than a folded single.

I suggest you calm down a little and read what you wrote again and how it might be perceived from my side of the argument: putting yourself in someone elses shoes and not geting angry are a key part of all that extensive training. Mainly using single rope technique and trying to switch to double without practice isn't such a great idea. Even on straight up routes clipping alternate ropes cuts the fall distance, which matters on most diffs.

In reply to Offwidth:
Sorry, this is like banging my head against a brick wall. So you're saying you do exactly what I'm saying and yet you disagree with what I'm saying on the basis of what precisely? I don't disagree that doubles have advantages, the only point we seem to disagree on is whether it is easier to teach using a single or a double system. And both our reasons have merit, only you seem to think yours is more right, which frankly is a somewhat lame argument. Anyways, we're now detracting from this thread so crack on - I'm out.

In reply to beardy mike:

One of the reasons I hardly ever post on UKC these days is, in part, because of people like Offwidth. It's as if he always has to have the last word. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy and means well but he has managed, on several occasions, to piss me off in exactly the same way he has you. Sorry Offwidth.

Al

In reply to beardy mike:
I simply think you overstressed the comparative simplicity of the single rope system compared to the double rope to teach and compartively understated its disadvantages. Its perfectly reasonable to have a discussion about such things. Yes I prefer double rope for lower grade trad beginners but I would't imply the other system is so much better than the other or get ratty and start willy waving qualifications. I know exactly who you are and what you do and happen to agree with the vast majority of your posts... they are especially useful for UKC on the kit front.

In reply to GridNorth:

The internet works that way sadly... good intent becomes angry argument much more so than in real life. If I care about something and someone keeps trying to unpick my position I will try to calmly further explain it. I don't expect the other person to agree in any debate (especially if contentious) but they should respect the different view and debate has a wider context and an audience. One of my favourite 'issues' is treating lower grade climbers better, they are the majority after all (the average logged lead in UKC is HS) but too often overlooked or mischaracterised. My improved lower grade omlette needs some cracked eggs.

In reply to Offwidth:

Willy waving? FML. You questioned whether I got the very basic principles of why we use double rope technique. And in addition you're the one who started stating your qualifications by telling me about how many people you've taught. Sorry if that might lead me to be slightly defensive, especially when we essentially agreeing on nearly all points apart from one which is about the semmantics of teaching something - which is irrelevant to the OP as he is not going to be taught. He most likely sport climbs so will be used to single rope technique, most likely will be with a partner of equal skill so will not have the benefit of being belayed by a double rope experienced belayer (otherwise he wouldn't be asking the questions in the first place) and furthermore will already own a single rope. I am coming at this from a practical point of view which is of use to the OP, trying to point out that if that is wht he already has then he doesn't really need to buy anything else.

In reply to GridNorth:



Can't make my mind up about this sort of thread - are they (unintentionally) very funny, or do they just make the viewer lose the will to live. A bit of both perhaps....

In reply to Scotch Bingington:

Not just the viewer

In reply to beardy mike:

I am coming at this from a practical point of view which is of use to the OP, trying to point out that if that is wht he already has then he doesn't really need to buy anything else.

In all fairness the OP does make it sound as if he already owns double ropes and is merely trying to decide which to bring.

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:
Sorry I'm late Aboud. If it's all gotten too much then:

https://www.alpkit.com/products/mujo

Although once you start the 'which beanie for grit?' I'm out...

In reply to Aboud_kanfoosh:

There are some dastardly pitches at Stanage, not sure if there are any Mutli ones though...