UKC

Harrison's Rocks
Having spent a great dal of my youth climbing at Harrisons, I would like by grandchildren to get the experience too.
When I climbed here it was sufficient to belay with a bowline tided round the waist but is this still acceptable for top roping?

Mike Latter

In reply to MikeLatter:

A waist belay you mean? Anything is acceptable as long as you safely do it. Which I'm sure you will with your own grandkids. If in doubt tho, a belay device can be sought for less than a tenner.

Actually climbing with the rope tied around their waste? That hurts and will probably put them off climbing for life if they slip off.

In reply to MikeLatter:
Unlikely to be regarded as acceptable now, especially for novices and/or children, but maybe you could provide more detail. Whose waist is the rope tied around? Any sort of belay device used, or just a friction hitch?

In reply to MikeLatter:

We used to top rope at Harrisons with the rope tied round the waist, it was quick and avoided getting grit in our nice harnesses.
However if suspended by a rope round the waist you will die quite quickly.

I once fell off dangling in space, the rope jammed at the top. Fortunately we were familiar with the baboon roll, whereby using a sling you can improvise a crude harness and get the weight off till the problem is resolved (difficult to explain in words). Probably best use harnesses particularly with novices/children.

In reply to snoop6060:


For children it could easily result in serious injury.

In reply to MikeLatter:

still see a fair few of locals belaying that way down there, usually with thicker ropes but might not work so well with kids as they often have little to no waist.

Not sure if it was the same in your youth but there is a big enthuses on conserving the rock down there which affects best practices for rigging, brushing, route choice etc.

Theres a good series of videos by the BMC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LxhBAQf_Yg) or the people there will be really happy to help. They'd even be happy to spot you when belaying if its been a while.k x

In reply to MikeLatter:
I would be more interested in what my wife or grandchildrens parents thought acceptable than some annonymous looney off UKC thought. IME my wife expected me to bring the same number of children home as I took out, in an unbroken condition, she was and is quite strict on this matter.
To this end state of the art safety systems would seem the way ahead.

In reply to MikeLatter:

You can get cheap harnesses and other basic equipment from Decathlon...
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/kids-easy-harness-id_8359208.html
(full body also) if they are really young.

If you don't want to invest in equipment in case they don't take to it, just try an indoor wall...

In reply to J1234:



Well all of us anonymous loonies have counselled caution so far

In reply to Keiran.A:

I saw someone literally just holding the rope down there. And there was an adult on the other end, too.

The mind boggled. Waist belaying a kid isn't hard, but this guy was to all intents and purposes soloing with a false sense of security.

Better get a couple of harnesses and a belay device, though, won't cost much.

In reply to MikeLatter:

I'd say no!

It seems like you've not climbed for a while, and a refresh would be a good idea.

Children and novices should definitely wear a harness whilst climbing.

It's a good idea to belay with a belay device in general - and especially if you've not belayed for a while.

Why not go to a local indoor wall with the kids and book an instruction session? Then, when your questions have been answered by an instructor, and you feel refreshed on the skills, and the kids have already had a go at climbing, you could head outside.

I'd also say: be very careful about using old gear, e.g. old ropes.

All best,
CW

In reply to Pedro50:

Rope jammed when climbing with a mate many years ago. However its very unlikely now as the old deep rope grooves have been cemented over and belaying etiquette now requires the krab at the top to be arranged so the rope runs freely and doesn't erode the sandstone.
An easy way to get weight off the waist if you have no extra slings is for the belayer to let out a little slack, climber ties fig 8 or overhand loop on bight and stands in it.

In reply to oldie:



I think you need to run that idea past yourself again!

In reply to andyjohnson0:


I still climb with a bowline tie on and use a waist belay on sandstone and some other older climbers do the same. Quick, simple and absolutely safe if done correctly. Avoids spending money on equipment if your ambitions are limited. However one will definitely face some criticism at the rocks from those not familiar with the technique!

Children/novices used to be tied on at the waist, it is obviously more uncomfortable than a harnesses when suspended on the rope but I don't remember anyone being discouraged because of this. Just don't leave lots of slack in the rope.

None of this is meant to imply that harnesses and belay devices are not the optimum for comfort and are perhaps more foolproof especially for inexperienced/small belayers.

In reply to Pedro50:
>An easy way to get weight off the waist if you have no extra slings is for the belayer to let out a little slack, climber ties fig 8 or overhand loop on bight and stands in it.<

>I think you need to run that idea past yourself again!<

I used it myself at Harrison's when the rope jammed in a groove. Belayer let out just enough slack to allow me to tie a loop in the rope FROM HIM and I stepped into this which immediately took all weight off my waist. Belayer still kept hold of rope in case it unjammed suddenly!
It was over 45 years ago.

In reply to Neil Williams:




you'd be surprised how much holding power there is on a thicker, sand impregnated rope and there'll be more friction in the top crab so less force held by the belayer.

i always setup on sandstone with 10.5ish mm static, harnesses and belay device but if a friendly locals got line i'd like to try setup with a thicker rope i can go for a bowline and a bum belay

.k x

In reply to oldie:

A couple of things with this.

1. Climbing involves risk, and participants need to be able to be able give informed consent to that risk. Novices (and this includes non-climbing parents of children being belayed) may not know that the technique used, while common when climbing equipment was more primitive than today, is not commonly used now. Keeping this knowledge from them means they cannot make an informed decision.

2. The OP needs to give serious thought to the personal consequences for himself if an accident were to occur and it emerged that he was using equipment and/or techniques that are have been superseded by modern gear and methods.

In reply to andyjohnson0:

You are absolutely right that these things should be considered and nothing should be hidden from novices or their parents.

Perhaps my main point/personal opinion was that older techniques can SOMETIMES be as safe as in practice as those now used. For instance I was on a seaside holiday with my son and some friends with just a rope, and a few slings and krabs (no car so little space for climbing gear). I toproped them up a long pitch using waist belay and simple waist attachment.... the risk in those circumstances was no different than using harness and belay device. Not to do so would have denied them an experience which they all enjoyed.

In reply to oldie:

OK got you now.

In reply to MikeLatter:

Given the price of harnesses and belay device nowadays I can't believe you're even thinking about it!
Hopefully the kids will get the bug and want to climb other areas so why start them off with out-dated and unsafe practises that they should certainly not attempt elsewhere?

In reply to MikeLatter:

Simple answer, no buy a harness and belay device. Think what the coroner would say if a child died and where the blame would be placed... it's simply not worth the risk.

In reply to MikeLatter:

There are two separate issues here. For the climber, a harness is undoubtedly the better option - both safer and more comfortable than a waist tie, especially when lowering off. However a waist belay, done properly, is effective, as anyone old enough to remember when this was the usual method will know. Holding big lead falls by adults might involve the risk of some injury to the belayer, which is why it was superseded by belay devices, but for top-roping kids it will be fine. However you can expect to be criticised by younger climbers not familiar with the technique.

In reply to Howard J:

Thank you all for your helpful if slightly conflicting advice.

In fact many of the indoor climbing walls I have been to over the last 20 years allow a bowline tie on and a waist belay. After all (for those not familiar with Harrisons - if there are any such people) the height for the easier climbs (which amount to little more than scrambling) is less than 5m and when top roping the belayer can ensure that the rope has almost no slack. In addition, the relative masses of the belayer (me) and the climbers (children) is perhaps 3:1 so there should be no difficulty in holding a fall of less than half a metre provided the proper rope handling technique is used. However, a stitch plate or figure of eight attached to a harness might be preferable to just a waist. A small fall, I don't think, will result in injury although I take the point about defending one's self before the Coroner.

Finally, I climbed for much of my youth on sandstone outcrops using a polyprop rope and screw gate Krab (as supplied by Terry Tullis) and it certainly did not put me or any of my friends, fellow Scouts or pupils off the wonderful experience.

In reply to MikeLatter:

You have been to some unusual walls. Most use fig 8 for tying into a harness for new and/young climbers. I have never yet been to a wall where a waist belay and tying around the waist is acceptable.
I am from the era pre-belay devices and pre harnesses and so learned the art of the body belay. I and several of my friends have had problems from catching falls on body belays and from being tied into the rope. (Think rope burn from waist to armpits even on a short fall, made worse for children by not having anything to stop the rope slipping up!) The moment we found out about good harnesses and belay devices we instantly invested the small amount of cash required (equivalent to about 60 l of 4*).
Invest in cheap harnesses and a belay device, some slings or static rope and screw-gates for anchors and a cheap rope for climbing on. It is much better to have wasted money than to have wasted the chance of introducing a novice to our great sport without putting them to the risk of injury and dislike of the pastime!

In reply to MikeLatter:



would "over the last 20 years" be more accurately stated as "20 years ago"? Every single climbing wall I have been to has insisted on a belay device and harness, usually with an assessment of your competance, with the use of bowlines seen as a controversial aberration by the staff.

In reply to MikeLatter:

I don't believe you. Bowline, yes, but I defy you to name one wall, just one, that will allow a body belay.

In reply to johncook:


The OP is not considering using a waist belay for anything except bottom roping as I understand it. There is virtually no slack and the fall is held with little effort, especially when the climber is small.
Yes one can get burns holding a leader fall (irrelevant to OP post). Like you I held numerous leader falls and (being a wimp) was always very careful to wear at least long sleeved shirts and grippy gloves with long wrists....I never got any burns. I did forget to wear a shirt with a collar for a classic abseil and bore the scars for many months.

>The moment we found out about good harnesses and belay devices we instantly invested the small amount of cash required<

Same here. I bought a pre-Whillans sit harness as soon as it appeared on the market. Same with sticht plates of various sizes but it took me many years and the arrival of slicker devices before I used them much, as I preferred the speed and ease of the waist belay.


The sandstone etiquette requires the use of slings and screwgates anyway. I must admit to using trees direct in the old days. Incidentally the OP's "kit" from Terry would have contained a sling and screwgate, the extremely hairy and frayed hawser laid polyropylene was really rough on the rock ( but I never heard of it breaking)....better stop here as I will be hounded to the ends of the earth if I seem to be suggesting their use! Happy climbing everyone.

In reply to Neil Williams:



On the contrary. Those guys are there regularly and I've seen them take some decent falls off overhangs. They know exactly what they are doing.

In reply to Hooo:

Must have a very strong grip to catch a fall just holding the rope, not even using a waist belay.

In reply to Neil Williams:

can you hold your own weight on a rope? If so you can hold a top-rope fall this way. Worse case scenario you both meet in the middle and the belayer rope campuses back down.

In reply to MikeLatter:

It's easy to be proud and say "I know what I'm doing." But, you're asking safety questions about a potentially dangerous activity on an internet forum - before taking grandchildren out. So, self-reflection is probably a good idea.

A waist belay works - but only if the technique is used correctly, in the correct circumstances.

A harness is definitely a good idea for kids.

Difficulty is difficult to judge with young kids, too: they don't always respond in the way you expect, don't have a full understanding of cause and effect, and easily get scared. They often wander off-route. They may start traversing sideways, creating the possibility of a swing. Sometimes they don't see things like holds or loose rock or the logic of your explanations. Even if it's "easy", they may get scared about the height. They also sometimes find being lowered down scary, and may do odd things, like grab things or refuse to lean back or lean back too much.

I'd also add that they don't always appreciate the "game" of climbing - i.e. starting at the bottom and trying to get to the top without falling. When I took my 6-year-old sister (indoor) climbing, it was easier to play bouldering games like "climb to the bandana and take it off the hold" or tag than to get her interested in ascending "routes". She didn't see the point of trying to get to the top...

In reply to MikeLatter:

You're a grandparent. Buy a harness and belay device and belay them properly or let them go climbing with someone more suitable.

In reply to DampRice:

I'm all for a bowline and waist belay, but recommending campusing down the rope, probably isn't overly helpful! If you're belaying someone considerably heavier than you, its best to use a harness / belay plate.

In reply to DampRice:

On a 10.5mm climbing rope? I very much doubt it.