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Turned up to The Roaches yesterday morning to find a large group with 5 top-ropes in place of which one was down the first pitch of Valkyrie. Luckily for us we had plenty of other options on the upper tier but seriously someone leading this kind of party must surely understand that rigging a top-rope on one of the most popular routes in Britain on a sunny summer Saturday is totally out of order.
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In reply to radddogg:
Isn't it just the same as a multitude of other groups being infront of you on the route, but leading?
Yes they're less experienced and they aren't leading the route, but they will still be using it just as much as anybody else?
However, if the route is free and nobody is climbing (even with a rigged top rope), then I also see no reason why you wouldn't be able to do the route, while they're not.
Isn't it just the same as a multitude of other groups being infront of you on the route, but leading?
Yes they're less experienced and they aren't leading the route, but they will still be using it just as much as anybody else?
However, if the route is free and nobody is climbing (even with a rigged top rope), then I also see no reason why you wouldn't be able to do the route, while they're not.
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In reply to radddogg:
I was at the roaches yesterday and led Valkyrie, there were a few groups there with top ropes set up. The ones on Valkyrie were happy to let us jump on the route and to be fair there top rope was slightly to the right of the first pitch anyway. Did you ask them if you could have a go on the route between their top roping goes?
I was at the roaches yesterday and led Valkyrie, there were a few groups there with top ropes set up. The ones on Valkyrie were happy to let us jump on the route and to be fair there top rope was slightly to the right of the first pitch anyway. Did you ask them if you could have a go on the route between their top roping goes?
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In reply to martinturner:
I've done it before so went to find other stuff to tick off. The question was more around whether or not an experienced party leader would think it's acceptable but seems my crag etiquette barometer needs recalibrating!
I've done it before so went to find other stuff to tick off. The question was more around whether or not an experienced party leader would think it's acceptable but seems my crag etiquette barometer needs recalibrating!
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In reply to radddogg:
As has been said already, top-roping a route is fine, but the people involved should be happy to move ropes aside if someone wants to lead it. But they can't be expected to guess that someone's wanting to lead. You would have to ask, politely!
As has been said already, top-roping a route is fine, but the people involved should be happy to move ropes aside if someone wants to lead it. But they can't be expected to guess that someone's wanting to lead. You would have to ask, politely!
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In reply to BStar:
They must have moved it then. When I arrived at 10:30 the rope was right in the corner straight down the Valkyrie line
> to be fair there top rope was slightly to the right of the first pitch anyway.
They must have moved it then. When I arrived at 10:30 the rope was right in the corner straight down the Valkyrie line
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In reply to radddogg:
To be fair I do sympathise a bit, there were at least 3 different teaching groups set up on the lower tier, which made warming up on something easy a bit tricky. And as much as I don't think they would mind the odd person asking if they can jump in, some groups can have a queue of people ready to jump on the end of the rope straight after the last person gets lowered off.
In addition to what I just put:
They do have just as much of a right to be there as everyone else though
To be fair I do sympathise a bit, there were at least 3 different teaching groups set up on the lower tier, which made warming up on something easy a bit tricky. And as much as I don't think they would mind the odd person asking if they can jump in, some groups can have a queue of people ready to jump on the end of the rope straight after the last person gets lowered off.
In addition to what I just put:
They do have just as much of a right to be there as everyone else though
Post edited at 15:14
In reply to radddogg:
It's an interesting question and I can certainly understand your disappointment if that was the plan. But I also see a risk of elitism too. Are top ropers less worthy than lead climbers? Are beginners less entitled to experienced climbers? Big groups less entitled than small ones?
> The question was more around whether or not an experienced party leader would think it's acceptable but seems my crag etiquette barometer needs recalibrating!
It's an interesting question and I can certainly understand your disappointment if that was the plan. But I also see a risk of elitism too. Are top ropers less worthy than lead climbers? Are beginners less entitled to experienced climbers? Big groups less entitled than small ones?
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In reply to radddogg:
You went to The Roaches on a Bank Holiday - what on earth were you thinking when you made that decision?
You went to The Roaches on a Bank Holiday - what on earth were you thinking when you made that decision?
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In reply to radddogg:
My personal opinion would be it's fine to top rope a route, but you should allow others to use the rock as well so if you have 3 in a party top roping you each climb it once and then let anyone else waiting (lead or otherwise) use the route next.
[Surely style shouldn't matter, you wouldn't lead the same route over and over and not let anyone else in either]
My personal opinion would be it's fine to top rope a route, but you should allow others to use the rock as well so if you have 3 in a party top roping you each climb it once and then let anyone else waiting (lead or otherwise) use the route next.
[Surely style shouldn't matter, you wouldn't lead the same route over and over and not let anyone else in either]
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In reply to radddogg:
For me this falls into the category of complaining about the traffic while being in the traffic. You turn up to a popular route, on a popular crag, on a bank holiday weekend in perfect Sunny weather and seem surprised that you can't get on it.
We went to Hen Cloud on Sat, saw only two other parties all day.
> Turned up to The Roaches yesterday morning to find a large group with 5 top-ropes in place of which one was down the first pitch of Valkyrie. ...rigging a top-rope on one of the most popular routes in Britain on a sunny summer Saturday is totally out of order.
For me this falls into the category of complaining about the traffic while being in the traffic. You turn up to a popular route, on a popular crag, on a bank holiday weekend in perfect Sunny weather and seem surprised that you can't get on it.
We went to Hen Cloud on Sat, saw only two other parties all day.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Not quite the right traffic analogy. Have you ever driven on the M42? The stretch where it goes down to two lanes. It's like driving down there with one HGV overtaking another at a speed differential of 1mph. Yeah it's legal and yes they are entitled to do it but doesn't stop us complaining about it.
> For me this falls into the category of complaining about the traffic while being in the traffic.
Not quite the right traffic analogy. Have you ever driven on the M42? The stretch where it goes down to two lanes. It's like driving down there with one HGV overtaking another at a speed differential of 1mph. Yeah it's legal and yes they are entitled to do it but doesn't stop us complaining about it.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
We went to Ramshaw and the same story. Two other parties all day, and 2&3 star routes all over with no one on them.
So good I'm going back tomorrow
> We went to Hen Cloud on Sat, saw only two other parties all day.
We went to Ramshaw and the same story. Two other parties all day, and 2&3 star routes all over with no one on them.
So good I'm going back tomorrow
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In reply to radddogg:
Have a like for that.
> It's like driving down there with one HGV overtaking another at a speed differential of 1mph. Yeah it's legal and yes they are entitled to do it but doesn't stop us complaining about it.
Have a like for that.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Announcing it on UKC? That's brave. You know what'll happen now...
> So good I'm going back tomorrow
Announcing it on UKC? That's brave. You know what'll happen now...
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In reply to planetmarshall:
Yep. Ramshaw will have a couple of teams and there'll be a queue for Valkyrie.
> Announcing it on UKC? That's brave. You know what'll happen now...
Yep. Ramshaw will have a couple of teams and there'll be a queue for Valkyrie.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Just got home from a brilliant day at the Roaches, had the Skyline from Doxey Pool to Very Far Skyline pretty well to ourselves.
Just got home from a brilliant day at the Roaches, had the Skyline from Doxey Pool to Very Far Skyline pretty well to ourselves.
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
It's so good along there. Went down there a couple of weeks ago. Roaches lower was really busy, Roaches Upper was the same then Skyline was empty apart from one other pair. The rock is nicer, less graffiti carvings, nowhere near as much rubbish and not as much green rock. Absolute pleasure.
It's so good along there. Went down there a couple of weeks ago. Roaches lower was really busy, Roaches Upper was the same then Skyline was empty apart from one other pair. The rock is nicer, less graffiti carvings, nowhere near as much rubbish and not as much green rock. Absolute pleasure.
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In reply to planetmarshall:
It's quite bizarre that if the Roaches are so busy Hen Cloud has virtually no one there. Doesn't it take about 15 minutes to walk between them?
It's quite bizarre that if the Roaches are so busy Hen Cloud has virtually no one there. Doesn't it take about 15 minutes to walk between them?
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In reply to TobyA:
..but the climbing at the Roaches is easy and the climbing at Hen Cloud is hard...
> It's quite bizarre that if the Roaches are so busy Hen Cloud has virtually no one there
..but the climbing at the Roaches is easy and the climbing at Hen Cloud is hard...
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In reply to stp:
> It's an interesting question and I can certainly understand your disappointment if that was the plan. But I also see a risk of elitism too. >
Is elitism necessarily bad? I mean why not put a via Ferrara up it so even more who can't even top rope it can 'experience' it?> Are top ropers less worthy than lead climbers? >
Yes> Are beginners less entitled to experienced climbers? >
Entitled to what? Hog classic lines that they could save until a time when they would better appreciate them?> Big groups less entitled than small ones? >
Big groups have more of an impact. They aren't less entitled but have a greater responsibility to behave courteously.
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In reply to pec:
I think the leaders of such groups might be taught to consider that they are depriving their charges of properly experiencing the route as it is generally climbed by exposing them to it as a game of scrabble without ethics at a time they are unlikely to appreciate it
I think the leaders of such groups might be taught to consider that they are depriving their charges of properly experiencing the route as it is generally climbed by exposing them to it as a game of scrabble without ethics at a time they are unlikely to appreciate it
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In reply to deacondeacon:
The quality of the grit is impeccable, probably my go to Bouldering venue in the whole Peak,. Great climbing on rock that isn't trashed too....
> It's so good along there. Went down there a couple of weeks ago. Roaches lower was really busy, Roaches Upper was the same then Skyline was empty apart from one other pair. The rock is nicer, less graffiti carvings, nowhere near as much rubbish and not as much green rock. Absolute pleasure.
The quality of the grit is impeccable, probably my go to Bouldering venue in the whole Peak,. Great climbing on rock that isn't trashed too....
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In reply to wercat:
Precisely. To a group of novices, the quality of such a route as Valkyrie will largely be lost on them. Their overall experience is going to be just as good toproping an unknown 1 star VS on the nth Cloud or suchlike where experiencing some solitude might also be a valuable learning experience for them. Instead thoughtless leaders are contributing to the erosion, polish and congestion on a route of national significance which many climbers, to whom the route actually means something and who can't easily get to the Peak, might have waited a long time to climb.
> I think the leaders of such groups might be taught to consider that they are depriving their charges of properly experiencing the route as it is generally climbed by exposing them to it as a game of scrabble without ethics at a time they are unlikely to appreciate it >
Precisely. To a group of novices, the quality of such a route as Valkyrie will largely be lost on them. Their overall experience is going to be just as good toproping an unknown 1 star VS on the nth Cloud or suchlike where experiencing some solitude might also be a valuable learning experience for them. Instead thoughtless leaders are contributing to the erosion, polish and congestion on a route of national significance which many climbers, to whom the route actually means something and who can't easily get to the Peak, might have waited a long time to climb.
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In reply to pec:
I think thats more than a bit OTT.
The first corner bit of Valkyrie is polished and hardly great and has been that way for as long as I can remember. The corner is also now a seperately listed HS in its own right. A true aesthete will start Valkyrie via Pebbledash.
Personally I'd rather beginner groups stay away from the clouds.
As others have said, as long as they move the rope and don't route hog its fine.
I think thats more than a bit OTT.
The first corner bit of Valkyrie is polished and hardly great and has been that way for as long as I can remember. The corner is also now a seperately listed HS in its own right. A true aesthete will start Valkyrie via Pebbledash.
Personally I'd rather beginner groups stay away from the clouds.
As others have said, as long as they move the rope and don't route hog its fine.
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In reply to radddogg:
End of the day the crag is for all to enjoy. Sound like the TR group were happy to share the lines they had ropes down.... Atleast it's not something like a completely different activity placing bolts for their needs (say slack liners for example)
End of the day the crag is for all to enjoy. Sound like the TR group were happy to share the lines they had ropes down.... Atleast it's not something like a completely different activity placing bolts for their needs (say slack liners for example)
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In reply to Offwidth:
I guess venues like the lower tier at the Roaches, Stanage popular, Curbar trackside, Stanage plantation et al are the coins we spend to buy relative solitude even on a Bank Holiday on The Skyline or Secret Stanage or most places that are more than ten minutes walk from the car. In terms of route hogging by organised groups top roping, it's nothing compared to the cabaret I watched on Valkyrie while I was bouldering on the upper tier last week. A team of two managed to tie (literally) the route up for most of an afternoon.
> I think thats more than a bit OTT.
> The first corner bit of Valkyrie is polished and hardly great and has been that way for as long as I can remember.
> Personally I'd rather beginner groups stay away from the clouds.
> As others have said, as long as they move the rope and don't route hog its fine.
I guess venues like the lower tier at the Roaches, Stanage popular, Curbar trackside, Stanage plantation et al are the coins we spend to buy relative solitude even on a Bank Holiday on The Skyline or Secret Stanage or most places that are more than ten minutes walk from the car. In terms of route hogging by organised groups top roping, it's nothing compared to the cabaret I watched on Valkyrie while I was bouldering on the upper tier last week. A team of two managed to tie (literally) the route up for most of an afternoon.
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In reply to radddogg:
Is it OK to hog it? No.
Is it OK for two or three people to climb it on top-rope taking no more time than you would for someone to lead it and two to second? Yes.
> Turned up to The Roaches yesterday morning to find a large group with 5 top-ropes in place of which one was down the first pitch of Valkyrie. Luckily for us we had plenty of other options on the upper tier but seriously someone leading this kind of party must surely understand that rigging a top-rope on one of the most popular routes in Britain on a sunny summer Saturday is totally out of order.
Is it OK to hog it? No.
Is it OK for two or three people to climb it on top-rope taking no more time than you would for someone to lead it and two to second? Yes.
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In reply to radddogg:
Judging by the number of Likes for the OP (about twice any other post so far) many of us may agree about top roping clogging up a route. If this is not the case then I also need to update my views.
> The question was more around whether or not an experienced party leader would think it's acceptable but seems my crag etiquette barometer needs recalibrating!<
Judging by the number of Likes for the OP (about twice any other post so far) many of us may agree about top roping clogging up a route. If this is not the case then I also need to update my views.
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Can you think of a harder VS classic of it's length in ropework terms? It's easy for the less experienced to really mess it up but I guess it's more OK to do that and say block the route for an afternoon than to be made to wait half an hour for top-ropers to clear the start of the route. You can also climb the start of Valkyrie Direct, go up the flake to the top and belay and then reverse and finish up the main line (great fun although as an onsight it spoils the neat surprise of Valkyrie). You can climb the nice bit of Matinee directly to the flake belay. You can also abseil in to the top of the flake and avoid the grubby start corner or as I said climb Pebble Dash and traverse over the corner. If someone is stuck lower in the corner on the polish you can also tunnel down behind the top corner and pop out just above the ledge. The OP is reporting a non-problem in my view, for such a super popular crag in good bank holiday weather.
Can you think of a harder VS classic of it's length in ropework terms? It's easy for the less experienced to really mess it up but I guess it's more OK to do that and say block the route for an afternoon than to be made to wait half an hour for top-ropers to clear the start of the route. You can also climb the start of Valkyrie Direct, go up the flake to the top and belay and then reverse and finish up the main line (great fun although as an onsight it spoils the neat surprise of Valkyrie). You can climb the nice bit of Matinee directly to the flake belay. You can also abseil in to the top of the flake and avoid the grubby start corner or as I said climb Pebble Dash and traverse over the corner. If someone is stuck lower in the corner on the polish you can also tunnel down behind the top corner and pop out just above the ledge. The OP is reporting a non-problem in my view, for such a super popular crag in good bank holiday weather.
Post edited at 10:39
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In reply to oldie:
I wouldn't necessarily use that as a guide. Not saying you're wrong, but I rarely use the feature, and never use dislikes. If I disagree with a post I'll just say so.
> Judging by the number of Likes for the OP (about twice any other post so far) many of us may agree about top roping clogging up a route. If this is not the case then I also need to update my views.
I wouldn't necessarily use that as a guide. Not saying you're wrong, but I rarely use the feature, and never use dislikes. If I disagree with a post I'll just say so.
In reply to radddogg:
Aside from the rights and wrongs of groups/top ropes/ethics etc etc, doesn't the fact that there's a top rope rigged up on this pitch - whether it's being used at that moment or not - mean that available anchors for someone leading the route in two pitches, have been used up? Even if there were other anchors available in this case, surely there will be instances where there wouldn't be and a leader would have to trust the top ropers' anchors.
Anyway Rad, if you think that was bad, just wait for this year's freshers meets...
Aside from the rights and wrongs of groups/top ropes/ethics etc etc, doesn't the fact that there's a top rope rigged up on this pitch - whether it's being used at that moment or not - mean that available anchors for someone leading the route in two pitches, have been used up? Even if there were other anchors available in this case, surely there will be instances where there wouldn't be and a leader would have to trust the top ropers' anchors.
Anyway Rad, if you think that was bad, just wait for this year's freshers meets...
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In reply to mrphilipoldham:
is it acceptable to solo the route while the next climber in the top-rope queue is tieing in?
is it acceptable to solo the route while the next climber in the top-rope queue is tieing in?
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In reply to radddogg:
I agree with you, and I think most people would, even if some seem to be being rather facetious now.
I agree with you, and I think most people would, even if some seem to be being rather facetious now.
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In reply to pec:
How much of this is instructors/guides/centres selling 'stars' at the expense of the rest of us?
How much of this is instructors/guides/centres selling 'stars' at the expense of the rest of us?
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In reply to pec:
Unlocking the secret of Valkyrie, while clinging above the void, was one of my best climbing experiences
Unlocking the secret of Valkyrie, while clinging above the void, was one of my best climbing experiences
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In reply to all:
So did anyone go to The Roaches today?
I was wrong about Ramshaw having only two teams, it was rammed, three teams in total
So did anyone go to The Roaches today?
I was wrong about Ramshaw having only two teams, it was rammed, three teams in total
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In reply to TobyA:
Another crag full of 3 star routes. I bet Horseshoe was rammed too.
What did you climb?
> I saw another team of three at Stoney today! Three whole other climbers!
Another crag full of 3 star routes. I bet Horseshoe was rammed too.
What did you climb?
In reply to deacondeacon:
I was meeting a chap to sell my old rack to, but we went and did a few routes too - I led Rosehip Wine which is one of the easier ones I hadn't done before, then he led Parachute and did an excellent job of protecting it with his new/my old rack! Very hot though in the sun.
I was meeting a chap to sell my old rack to, but we went and did a few routes too - I led Rosehip Wine which is one of the easier ones I hadn't done before, then he led Parachute and did an excellent job of protecting it with his new/my old rack! Very hot though in the sun.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Shush, don't tell everyone!
> We went to Ramshaw and the same story. Two other parties all day, and 2&3 star routes all over with no one on them.
> So good I'm going back tomorrow
Shush, don't tell everyone!
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
The internet warriors, the guidebooks and the mags all wax lyrical and great places remain empty and shitty sport quarries are rammed. It won't change so no need to be quiet. I found Ramshaw gets better the more you explore.
The internet warriors, the guidebooks and the mags all wax lyrical and great places remain empty and shitty sport quarries are rammed. It won't change so no need to be quiet. I found Ramshaw gets better the more you explore.
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In reply to Offwidth:
And great for a hot day too.
> The internet warriors, the guidebooks and the mags all wax lyrical and great places remain empty and shitty sport quarries are rammed. It won't change so no need to be quiet. I found Ramshaw gets better the more you explore.
And great for a hot day too.
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In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
not just Ramshaw, Newstones Baldstones and even Wolf Edge are usually quiet
> Shush, don't tell everyone!
not just Ramshaw, Newstones Baldstones and even Wolf Edge are usually quiet
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
What do you mean "even Wolf Edge", only a small minority of peak climbers know it even exists! Idyllic bouldering at low to mid grade.
What do you mean "even Wolf Edge", only a small minority of peak climbers know it even exists! Idyllic bouldering at low to mid grade.
In reply to Offwidth:
Not any more!
> What do you mean "even Wolf Edge", only a small minority of peak climbers know it even exists!
Not any more!
In reply to Offwidth:
even 'mid to high' for connosieurs of the sit start
> What do you mean "even Wolf Edge", only a small minority of peak climbers know it even exists! Idyllic bouldering at low to mid grade.
even 'mid to high' for connosieurs of the sit start
In reply to radddogg:
IMO - no. I don't like top-roping in general. I don't think it's a useful activity, unless you're redpointing something space-age/with no pro, or are in a big group of novices. And if you're in a big group of novices, you shouldn't be on a classic, polishing it to hell.
IMO - no. I don't like top-roping in general. I don't think it's a useful activity, unless you're redpointing something space-age/with no pro, or are in a big group of novices. And if you're in a big group of novices, you shouldn't be on a classic, polishing it to hell.
Post edited at 17:13
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In reply to C Witter:
Pretty much everything I've seen in terms of polish on gritstone routes relates to the use of nailed boots in the early days of climbing or subsequent group use with poor footwear. Rare exceptions include routes like Downhill Racer where climbers who should know better top rope a delicate climb without the neccesary skills.
I think Valkirie start is too hard for such training shoe groups and the polish is ancient. So although I might normally sympathise with what you say Im not sure its so relevant in this particular case, especially as you can bypass the polished start in the ways I've described.
Pretty much everything I've seen in terms of polish on gritstone routes relates to the use of nailed boots in the early days of climbing or subsequent group use with poor footwear. Rare exceptions include routes like Downhill Racer where climbers who should know better top rope a delicate climb without the neccesary skills.
I think Valkirie start is too hard for such training shoe groups and the polish is ancient. So although I might normally sympathise with what you say Im not sure its so relevant in this particular case, especially as you can bypass the polished start in the ways I've described.
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In reply to pec:
Yes it's a prejudice.
Because that would involve making permanent changes to the rock and would be pointless as it would make more sense just to choose an easier route.
Based on what? Does this imply soloists are more worthy than lead climbers then?
You could say the same about anyone having a hard time on any route. That's definitely elitist and if you said that to me when I was struggling on something I simply tell you to f*&k off and find another route.
> Is elitism necessarily bad?
Yes it's a prejudice.
> I mean why not put a via Ferrara up it so even more who can't even top rope it can 'experience' it?
Because that would involve making permanent changes to the rock and would be pointless as it would make more sense just to choose an easier route.
> > Are top ropers less worthy than lead climbers?
> Yes
> Yes
Based on what? Does this imply soloists are more worthy than lead climbers then?
> Entitled to what? Hog classic lines that they could save until a time when they would better appreciate them?
You could say the same about anyone having a hard time on any route. That's definitely elitist and if you said that to me when I was struggling on something I simply tell you to f*&k off and find another route.
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
I think the climbing is better in many of these quieter places but I guess that is the joy of becoming more experienced in climbing and getting to know and appreciate these places.
> not just Ramshaw, Newstones Baldstones and even Wolf Edge are usually quiet
I think the climbing is better in many of these quieter places but I guess that is the joy of becoming more experienced in climbing and getting to know and appreciate these places.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Is that from personal experience, I didn't think you were that old?
Look around you at things that are polished and think what they were polished by, or perhaps do some research on polishing techniques.
> Pretty much everything I've seen in terms of polish on gritstone routes relates to the use of nailed boots in the early days of climbing
Is that from personal experience, I didn't think you were that old?
Look around you at things that are polished and think what they were polished by, or perhaps do some research on polishing techniques.
In reply to C Witter:
Polishing holds on classic routes is fine by me ,it makes them too hard for novices with bad technique so they'll move on to another climb and leave the classics to those with good footwork.
> And if you're in a big group of novices, you shouldn't be on a classic, polishing it to hell.
Polishing holds on classic routes is fine by me ,it makes them too hard for novices with bad technique so they'll move on to another climb and leave the classics to those with good footwork.
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In reply to TobyA:
Ah Parachute. First route I led at Stoney. Felt hard work at HS.
> I was meeting a chap to sell my old rack to, but we went and did a few routes too - I led Rosehip Wine which is one of the easier ones I hadn't done before, then he led Parachute and did an excellent job of protecting it with his new/my old rack! Very hot though in the sun.
Ah Parachute. First route I led at Stoney. Felt hard work at HS.
In reply to Jon Greengrass:
On the history front I read a lot and talked to very old climbers and have dug polished holds from under 20 cm of turf at places like Laddow. Stanage is a great example as it was keepered for a long time but access opened before the fashion for climbing in nailed boots ended. There are early films and photographs showing massive damage in just a decade. My own extensive experience on peak classics since the late 80s.. on some of the most popular climbs in the world and including routes that were popular with groups way before I started ... is things haven't changed much since (very much unlike say some newly popular limestone routes). One of my best pals is a professional tribologist and agrees with my thoughts. Polish is simply more effective using movement and a polishing agent. Muddy boots are a problem even on such hard rocks as gritstone, but good ninjas with careful footwork simply don't polish to any noticable extent.
On the history front I read a lot and talked to very old climbers and have dug polished holds from under 20 cm of turf at places like Laddow. Stanage is a great example as it was keepered for a long time but access opened before the fashion for climbing in nailed boots ended. There are early films and photographs showing massive damage in just a decade. My own extensive experience on peak classics since the late 80s.. on some of the most popular climbs in the world and including routes that were popular with groups way before I started ... is things haven't changed much since (very much unlike say some newly popular limestone routes). One of my best pals is a professional tribologist and agrees with my thoughts. Polish is simply more effective using movement and a polishing agent. Muddy boots are a problem even on such hard rocks as gritstone, but good ninjas with careful footwork simply don't polish to any noticable extent.
Post edited at 10:02
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In reply to Offwidth:
agreed
> Polish is simply more effective using movement and a polishing agent. Muddy boots are a problem even on such hard rocks as gritstone
agreed
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Aye, but to clarify: people often claim toproping is 'useful'. Personally, I think it's often a cop out and against the tradition and the singularity of the experience of trad climbing. My approach, for better or worse, has always been that you don't climb something unless you lead it from the ground up, or follow someone else up. I realise this can be limiting, but I enjoy that self-imposed limit .
Aye, but to clarify: people often claim toproping is 'useful'. Personally, I think it's often a cop out and against the tradition and the singularity of the experience of trad climbing. My approach, for better or worse, has always been that you don't climb something unless you lead it from the ground up, or follow someone else up. I realise this can be limiting, but I enjoy that self-imposed limit .
In reply to C Witter:
Thanks. I have my own ethics to some extent, so I understand. But I guess the point is, they're not useful, except to my own enjoyment and personal challenge. Somebody who top ropes might feel the same about what they do.
> I realise this can be limiting, but I enjoy that self-imposed limit .
Thanks. I have my own ethics to some extent, so I understand. But I guess the point is, they're not useful, except to my own enjoyment and personal challenge. Somebody who top ropes might feel the same about what they do.
In reply to C Witter:
Top roping is as traditional as what we call trad climbing and its just another climbing game. You can't claim any precendence on games in my view. You can say its very unethical to top rope in poor style in dirty (or nailed) boots (nailed boots is probably what polished up the first bit of Valkyrie) or to its unethical to route hog (more common on Valkyrie with trad climbers who haven't sorted their ropework than those top roping the corner). It's demonstrating a worrying lack of adventure that people would look at a toprope group in the corner and think 'bugger, the route isn't possible' when all the best bits of the route can be accessed in a number of ways around the same grade (the route is HVS 4c really as a true onsight in a similar way Dream of White Horses is... exposure, blind moves and complexity of ropework) of which several are much better than the polished HS 4b corner.
Top roping is as traditional as what we call trad climbing and its just another climbing game. You can't claim any precendence on games in my view. You can say its very unethical to top rope in poor style in dirty (or nailed) boots (nailed boots is probably what polished up the first bit of Valkyrie) or to its unethical to route hog (more common on Valkyrie with trad climbers who haven't sorted their ropework than those top roping the corner). It's demonstrating a worrying lack of adventure that people would look at a toprope group in the corner and think 'bugger, the route isn't possible' when all the best bits of the route can be accessed in a number of ways around the same grade (the route is HVS 4c really as a true onsight in a similar way Dream of White Horses is... exposure, blind moves and complexity of ropework) of which several are much better than the polished HS 4b corner.
Post edited at 10:29
In reply to Offwidth:
I would offer one piece of anecdata against your argument, namely Banana Finger (f6A) at Burbage North. I did this some time in the mid 80s and remember thinking it was delightful. Went back last year and was shocked at what a polished horror it has become.
And yet unlike easy routes at the south end of Stanage, it was first done in the late 70s and I suspect does not see nose to tail top-roping beginners all weekend every weekend. Most of the relatively few people on it are presumably competent climbers who know to keep their shoes clean.
I would offer one piece of anecdata against your argument, namely Banana Finger (f6A) at Burbage North. I did this some time in the mid 80s and remember thinking it was delightful. Went back last year and was shocked at what a polished horror it has become.
And yet unlike easy routes at the south end of Stanage, it was first done in the late 70s and I suspect does not see nose to tail top-roping beginners all weekend every weekend. Most of the relatively few people on it are presumably competent climbers who know to keep their shoes clean.
1
In reply to AlanLittle:
It's a boulder problem though. I first did it in about 1990 and it was getting polished then. Back then traffic was lower but mats were uncommon and dirty feet probably more of an issue. It probably sees some of the largest traffic of any problem of its grade (very popular venue and tricky to flash). Volume, dirty feet and poor footwork for the hold size leads to problems and this would be expected to be a much larger issue on such a problem than on the average bumbly grit route. Downhill Racer is a route I bring up which is maybe a better example (incompetent at the grade climbers on top-ropes encouraged by other climbers who should know better). Yes polish is still possible on routes, but it's not the major issue that cam damage is becoming or brush damage is on boulder problems (in 1990 the south facing end wall problem on The Brick was a nice f5+ on 'bullet pockets' now its a trashed f4 on sandy gashes).
I'd add that, like Font, a lot of Burbage North stuff around this grade sees some bad practice from good climbers who should know better doing warm up stuff without carrying a bar towel to keep their feet clean.
It's a boulder problem though. I first did it in about 1990 and it was getting polished then. Back then traffic was lower but mats were uncommon and dirty feet probably more of an issue. It probably sees some of the largest traffic of any problem of its grade (very popular venue and tricky to flash). Volume, dirty feet and poor footwork for the hold size leads to problems and this would be expected to be a much larger issue on such a problem than on the average bumbly grit route. Downhill Racer is a route I bring up which is maybe a better example (incompetent at the grade climbers on top-ropes encouraged by other climbers who should know better). Yes polish is still possible on routes, but it's not the major issue that cam damage is becoming or brush damage is on boulder problems (in 1990 the south facing end wall problem on The Brick was a nice f5+ on 'bullet pockets' now its a trashed f4 on sandy gashes).
I'd add that, like Font, a lot of Burbage North stuff around this grade sees some bad practice from good climbers who should know better doing warm up stuff without carrying a bar towel to keep their feet clean.
Post edited at 12:15
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