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Hi everyone, hope you're all having a good long weekends climbing.
I'm going to replace my old second set of nuts and can't decide between a set of standard nuts or some offsets. Could someone in the know tell me if offsets are a specialist bit of kit or will they work OK in standard placements? Also what sort of rock types are they best for and would people recommend them over normal nuts for a second set?
Cheers for any help.
I'm going to replace my old second set of nuts and can't decide between a set of standard nuts or some offsets. Could someone in the know tell me if offsets are a specialist bit of kit or will they work OK in standard placements? Also what sort of rock types are they best for and would people recommend them over normal nuts for a second set?
Cheers for any help.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I place mine more than the normal wallnuts I reckon. My set are these ones https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1066 and they are still going strong. I bought the biggest brass ones a few years back to go with the alloy too.
Once you've got them you'll see placements for them everywhere - these days I climb more on grit than anything else and often just take my set of offsets on routes, rather than them and the wallnuts, or just the wallnuts. I also use the wallnuts in their sideways offset way a lot too, you just get used to seeing offset placements everywhere.
I place mine more than the normal wallnuts I reckon. My set are these ones https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1066 and they are still going strong. I bought the biggest brass ones a few years back to go with the alloy too.
Once you've got them you'll see placements for them everywhere - these days I climb more on grit than anything else and often just take my set of offsets on routes, rather than them and the wallnuts, or just the wallnuts. I also use the wallnuts in their sideways offset way a lot too, you just get used to seeing offset placements everywhere.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
My partner and I were talking about these yesterday. Occasionally they are good in quarries but more often than not they just aren't as good as regular nuts. The offset angle is quite acute so I find the widest edges contact but the narrowest don't. This makes them weaker in a fall and harder to clean.
They are worth having but don't get placed as often as the other nuts.
My partner and I were talking about these yesterday. Occasionally they are good in quarries but more often than not they just aren't as good as regular nuts. The offset angle is quite acute so I find the widest edges contact but the narrowest don't. This makes them weaker in a fall and harder to clean.
They are worth having but don't get placed as often as the other nuts.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I've climbed a fair amount on quarried dolerite and limestone, and I place them as much/more than regular wires.
Got the DMM offsets, and they seat really well, seem to go everywhere. Would absolutely recommend them for a second set. The gold, blue and red nuts are probably my most places bits of gear!
I've climbed a fair amount on quarried dolerite and limestone, and I place them as much/more than regular wires.
Got the DMM offsets, and they seat really well, seem to go everywhere. Would absolutely recommend them for a second set. The gold, blue and red nuts are probably my most places bits of gear!
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In reply to radddogg:
I've used most most passive devices pretty extensively over the years and never noticed any particular problem with offsets getting stuck.. I'd say they are better than average in this respect. As for the weakness point it seems to indicate you don't realise how such passive devices work.. If there is a difference in 'hold strength' its normally negligible in risk terms and depending on the specific crack shape the offset might even be better in a situation where both types work well and of course offsets will work in placements where more conventional devices won't. Andy K is good on independant gear reviews and speaks highly of offset types.
I've used most most passive devices pretty extensively over the years and never noticed any particular problem with offsets getting stuck.. I'd say they are better than average in this respect. As for the weakness point it seems to indicate you don't realise how such passive devices work.. If there is a difference in 'hold strength' its normally negligible in risk terms and depending on the specific crack shape the offset might even be better in a situation where both types work well and of course offsets will work in placements where more conventional devices won't. Andy K is good on independant gear reviews and speaks highly of offset types.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I wouldn't be without mine. I use the the largest 2 brass offsets a good deal, and the 3 smaller standard one's frequently too. I climb in the Lakes where they seem ideal. I carry a selection of wallnuts and rocks too.
I wouldn't be without mine. I use the the largest 2 brass offsets a good deal, and the 3 smaller standard one's frequently too. I climb in the Lakes where they seem ideal. I carry a selection of wallnuts and rocks too.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Thanks for the advice and review everyone, that's really helpful. Seems some people swear by them, but then you get that with tri cams and we all know what they're like .
I'm still wondering about the smaller range/less units than a standard set of nuts but as no one's mentioned it I can't imagine it's a problem. I'll give them a go.
Thanks for the advice and review everyone, that's really helpful. Seems some people swear by them, but then you get that with tri cams and we all know what they're like .
I'm still wondering about the smaller range/less units than a standard set of nuts but as no one's mentioned it I can't imagine it's a problem. I'll give them a go.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I'm a fan, after using some on a mate's rack I rushed out and got the light weight set. They do fit well in some cracks normal rocks don't.
I'm a fan, after using some on a mate's rack I rushed out and got the light weight set. They do fit well in some cracks normal rocks don't.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
End of they day the DMM offsets are slightly heavier but full strength. The lighter weight is a compromise on strength. Remember reading recently of a top climber breaking a wc light weight nut in a fall. For regular outcrop climbing I personally would err to the full strength nuts.
End of they day the DMM offsets are slightly heavier but full strength. The lighter weight is a compromise on strength. Remember reading recently of a top climber breaking a wc light weight nut in a fall. For regular outcrop climbing I personally would err to the full strength nuts.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Quite a confusing thread.
Rocks, Wallnuts, Super Rocks, superlight rocks, superlight offset rocks, the larger alloy offsets and brass micro offsets.
Other posters please clarify what you are recommending.
Forgot to mention rockcentrics and torque nuts.
FFIW in the Lakes Peak and Scotland my preference is a spread of rocks wallnuts rockcentrics and superlight rocks. (and a few micros which hardly get used)
Quite a confusing thread.
Rocks, Wallnuts, Super Rocks, superlight rocks, superlight offset rocks, the larger alloy offsets and brass micro offsets.
Other posters please clarify what you are recommending.
Forgot to mention rockcentrics and torque nuts.
FFIW in the Lakes Peak and Scotland my preference is a spread of rocks wallnuts rockcentrics and superlight rocks. (and a few micros which hardly get used)
Post edited at 10:01
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Wild Country Superlight Offsets are my go to set, extremely versatile and thoroughly recommended.
Wild Country Superlight Offsets are my go to set, extremely versatile and thoroughly recommended.
Post edited at 09:55
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Hi,
My view is they have a place but as a second/third set and on specific rock types. Lots of people like the DMM offsets and they do have a solid bite, but I prefer the WC superlight offsets as they are more like normal nuts on the front profile and light enough to make the take/leave decision easier (DMM offsets are quite heavy). I actually rack them with size 1-3 Metolius curved nuts to make a full size range set of wierd placement nuts.
I think some of the decision hinges on what and how you use "standard" nuts. Others have mentioned Andy K, and I like his view on nut shapes as being simple or complex. Rocks are a very simple shape and quite intuitive to use, however they have less placement options as cracks flare. DMM Wall nuts are more complex and placed sideways can be much more like offsets. I really rate the Metolius curved nuts and in most cases would carry these over offsets. So what am I poorly trying to get over...., I guess this: see nut shapes as a continuum, move to offsets if you are fully exploiting DMM Wallnut type nut shapes and still see a need beyond this.
I tend to use offsets in larger sizes so maybe a half way house is buy a couple and see how you get on, 6 and 8 superlight perhaps.
Hopefully that was useful, though I appreciate nuts use is a bit of a marmite subject and that other opinions are available.
Wayne
Hi,
My view is they have a place but as a second/third set and on specific rock types. Lots of people like the DMM offsets and they do have a solid bite, but I prefer the WC superlight offsets as they are more like normal nuts on the front profile and light enough to make the take/leave decision easier (DMM offsets are quite heavy). I actually rack them with size 1-3 Metolius curved nuts to make a full size range set of wierd placement nuts.
I think some of the decision hinges on what and how you use "standard" nuts. Others have mentioned Andy K, and I like his view on nut shapes as being simple or complex. Rocks are a very simple shape and quite intuitive to use, however they have less placement options as cracks flare. DMM Wall nuts are more complex and placed sideways can be much more like offsets. I really rate the Metolius curved nuts and in most cases would carry these over offsets. So what am I poorly trying to get over...., I guess this: see nut shapes as a continuum, move to offsets if you are fully exploiting DMM Wallnut type nut shapes and still see a need beyond this.
I tend to use offsets in larger sizes so maybe a half way house is buy a couple and see how you get on, 6 and 8 superlight perhaps.
Hopefully that was useful, though I appreciate nuts use is a bit of a marmite subject and that other opinions are available.
Wayne
Post edited at 10:56
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
If it's the Superlight Offset Rocks you are talking about, the main reason not to recommend them is as Curly Stevo say, they have a lower rating. They are a compromise - weight versus strength and as long as you understand that they are a good product. I find they place better than the DMM's (which I find don't place as well as the HB's they were based on either). The question is whether that compromise is a worth while one for you as an individual. Most falls never exceed 7kN so these should be adequate for more situations but not all. That said, I own a set and they place well in slots where you might get nothing else secure, including the DMM's.
If it's the Superlight Offset Rocks you are talking about, the main reason not to recommend them is as Curly Stevo say, they have a lower rating. They are a compromise - weight versus strength and as long as you understand that they are a good product. I find they place better than the DMM's (which I find don't place as well as the HB's they were based on either). The question is whether that compromise is a worth while one for you as an individual. Most falls never exceed 7kN so these should be adequate for more situations but not all. That said, I own a set and they place well in slots where you might get nothing else secure, including the DMM's.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
My second set of nuts are HB Offsets, I find they place well on all types of rock that don't feature perfect parallel cracks. They absolutely come into their own on peg scars on quarried grit.
My second set of nuts are HB Offsets, I find they place well on all types of rock that don't feature perfect parallel cracks. They absolutely come into their own on peg scars on quarried grit.
In reply to Offwidth:
Let me qualify my statement. In my experience good placements are all about contact area. This is why most passive nuts/hexes now have a curve; it increases the contact points. More contact area means the force is spread over a larger area making the placement less likely to blow the rock. Due to the straight profile and fixed offset angle it is much harder to guarantee a perfect seating - I usually find it's the wider edges that bite. It's these that are sometimes harder to clean - not impossible (as I've never lost a nut) but sometimes they pivot on the contact point, you know the ones that you can wiggle around but won't go up, down, in or out.
Now, I'm not saying they aren't any good, far from it, I wouldn't go without them. What I'm saying is that normal rocks get used much more and are easier to place properly. I see offsets like torque nuts; more of a niche piece but when you need them you need them.
Let me qualify my statement. In my experience good placements are all about contact area. This is why most passive nuts/hexes now have a curve; it increases the contact points. More contact area means the force is spread over a larger area making the placement less likely to blow the rock. Due to the straight profile and fixed offset angle it is much harder to guarantee a perfect seating - I usually find it's the wider edges that bite. It's these that are sometimes harder to clean - not impossible (as I've never lost a nut) but sometimes they pivot on the contact point, you know the ones that you can wiggle around but won't go up, down, in or out.
Now, I'm not saying they aren't any good, far from it, I wouldn't go without them. What I'm saying is that normal rocks get used much more and are easier to place properly. I see offsets like torque nuts; more of a niche piece but when you need them you need them.
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In reply to radddogg:
To counter that, I find the narrowness does the same as the cutaway of DMM Wallnuts but opposite. Where wallnuts excel is placing them on crozzelly rock where you can key the cutout around a knobble in the rock side wall, to produce a placement that can't ping out because it's mechanically locked in there. I find the same with offsets in the "standard" orientation, that because they are narrow you can drop them in behind a knobble in somewhat shallow placements to produce a really secure placement. In the other orientation, they have a very wier aspect ratio which makes them very secure, more so in some cases that the DMM's. I was quite surprised by this as I thought they wouldn't be that good that way round!
To counter that, I find the narrowness does the same as the cutaway of DMM Wallnuts but opposite. Where wallnuts excel is placing them on crozzelly rock where you can key the cutout around a knobble in the rock side wall, to produce a placement that can't ping out because it's mechanically locked in there. I find the same with offsets in the "standard" orientation, that because they are narrow you can drop them in behind a knobble in somewhat shallow placements to produce a really secure placement. In the other orientation, they have a very wier aspect ratio which makes them very secure, more so in some cases that the DMM's. I was quite surprised by this as I thought they wouldn't be that good that way round!
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
DMM offsets are great when you have a placement that needs and offset, if it doesn't less aren't as a good as normal nut. Personally I carry two full sets of normal nuts and then the offsets in addition to that.
DMM offsets are great when you have a placement that needs and offset, if it doesn't less aren't as a good as normal nut. Personally I carry two full sets of normal nuts and then the offsets in addition to that.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Love my dmm offsets, no particular scientific basis for this, just use them lots. Probably more than the standard rocks the sit alongside on the biner.
Love my dmm offsets, no particular scientific basis for this, just use them lots. Probably more than the standard rocks the sit alongside on the biner.
In reply to beardy mike:
I have to admit to doing that as well sometimes
> key the cutout around a knobble in the rock side wall, to produce a placement that can't ping out because it's mechanically locked in there.
I have to admit to doing that as well sometimes
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The nut that broke in the recent video was a super light rock with the single strand wire. The WC superlight offsets have traditional looped and swaged wires. Just making sure we are comparing like with like between DMM offsets and the equivalent sized WC superlight offset.
The nut that broke in the recent video was a super light rock with the single strand wire. The WC superlight offsets have traditional looped and swaged wires. Just making sure we are comparing like with like between DMM offsets and the equivalent sized WC superlight offset.
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In reply to radddogg:
I've rarely had these problems. If just the wider edges are contacting then the crack is too parallel for an offset. I'd expect an offset nut to be contacting well on two sides just as a regular nut when properly placed.
I actually find you can sometimes effectively alter the angle of offset by placing the nut slightly tilted if the placement allows.
> In my experience good placements are all about contact area. This is why most passive nuts/hexes now have a curve; it increases the contact points. More contact area means the force is spread over a larger area making the placement less likely to blow the rock. Due to the straight profile and fixed offset angle it is much harder to guarantee a perfect seating - I usually find it's the wider edges that bite. It's these that are sometimes harder to clean - not impossible (as I've never lost a nut) but sometimes they pivot on the contact point...
I've rarely had these problems. If just the wider edges are contacting then the crack is too parallel for an offset. I'd expect an offset nut to be contacting well on two sides just as a regular nut when properly placed.
I actually find you can sometimes effectively alter the angle of offset by placing the nut slightly tilted if the placement allows.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I'd agree with the comments of them complimenting a regular set and once you've got them you'll very often see placements for them where a regular nut won't sit right.
I did a pitch today where I used all 5 offsets (DMM) and the large brass one.
Always have them on my rack with a regular set of wallnuts.
Not always the easiest to clean though!
I'd agree with the comments of them complimenting a regular set and once you've got them you'll very often see placements for them where a regular nut won't sit right.
I did a pitch today where I used all 5 offsets (DMM) and the large brass one.
Always have them on my rack with a regular set of wallnuts.
Not always the easiest to clean though!
Post edited at 01:49
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In reply to Wayne S:
The super light offsets are still rated to 7kN compared to the 12kN of the DMM offsets.
I love the WC offsets. They just seem to fit in far more places than a standard nut. I use them as my second set combined with micros/brass off sets.
I've not used the DMMs but my climbing partner has a keab of them so might try them on our next outing to compare.
The super light offsets are still rated to 7kN compared to the 12kN of the DMM offsets.
I love the WC offsets. They just seem to fit in far more places than a standard nut. I use them as my second set combined with micros/brass off sets.
I've not used the DMMs but my climbing partner has a keab of them so might try them on our next outing to compare.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Some possibly dumb observations....
Am I right in thinking offsets encourage placements which are held in by friction alone? (unless placed backwards in rare scenarios). Personally I like my placements to be mechanical rather than frictional - ie they cannot pull out for mechanical reasons (I even do this with cams wherever possible).
Surely rock type is a major issue with frictional placements. Grit might be fine but slick limestone would not be.
I do carry some offset micros but rarely place them since they do little to boost my confidence.
The most useful weird gear I have ever bonded with are tricams and skyhooks.
Educate me please.
Some possibly dumb observations....
Am I right in thinking offsets encourage placements which are held in by friction alone? (unless placed backwards in rare scenarios). Personally I like my placements to be mechanical rather than frictional - ie they cannot pull out for mechanical reasons (I even do this with cams wherever possible).
Surely rock type is a major issue with frictional placements. Grit might be fine but slick limestone would not be.
I do carry some offset micros but rarely place them since they do little to boost my confidence.
The most useful weird gear I have ever bonded with are tricams and skyhooks.
Educate me please.
In reply to Kafoozalem:
No. The placements you get with offsets are qualitatively similar to the ones you get with "normal" nuts, but they go better in flares.
See if you can borrow a set for a couple of leads and it will become obvious.
No. The placements you get with offsets are qualitatively similar to the ones you get with "normal" nuts, but they go better in flares.
See if you can borrow a set for a couple of leads and it will become obvious.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
You're looking for a second set of nuts, therefore you want something that will increase your placement options as much as possible. Therefore you should buy offsets because they will go where no other nuts will. Yes, the size range means there's fewer nuts but I doubt that will be an issue unless you're on a long pitch.
You're looking for a second set of nuts, therefore you want something that will increase your placement options as much as possible. Therefore you should buy offsets because they will go where no other nuts will. Yes, the size range means there's fewer nuts but I doubt that will be an issue unless you're on a long pitch.
In reply to Toerag:
Not necessarily. In my case its to make sure I don't run out of, say, number 4 wires on a large pitch. Personally, although I have a set of offsets in my bag I very rarely carry them on a route - much prefer a mix of rocks and wallnuts for the majority of routes.
> You're looking for a second set of nuts, therefore you want something that will increase your placement options as much as possible.
Not necessarily. In my case its to make sure I don't run out of, say, number 4 wires on a large pitch. Personally, although I have a set of offsets in my bag I very rarely carry them on a route - much prefer a mix of rocks and wallnuts for the majority of routes.
In reply to Wayne S:
yeah sure however the the superlight offsets - the majority are rated to 7kn whilst my wallnuts of similar size are rated to 13kn. both the types of light WC rocks are a compromise on strength for weight and 7kn is cutting it a bit too fine for large falls or factor twos on to belays etc.
> The nut that broke in the recent video was a super light rock with the single strand wire. The WC superlight offsets have traditional looped and swaged wires. Just making sure we are comparing like with like between DMM offsets and the equivalent sized WC superlight offset.
yeah sure however the the superlight offsets - the majority are rated to 7kn whilst my wallnuts of similar size are rated to 13kn. both the types of light WC rocks are a compromise on strength for weight and 7kn is cutting it a bit too fine for large falls or factor twos on to belays etc.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I've never used tri-cams, but having some HB offsets, I'd humbly suggest that because they're more like nuts & less niche than tri-cams are, you'd probably find them (more) intuitively usable.
> Thanks for the advice and review everyone, that's really helpful. Seems some people swear by them, but then you get that with tri cams and we all know what they're like .
> I'm still wondering about the smaller range/less units than a standard set of nuts but as no one's mentioned it I can't imagine it's a problem. I'll give them a go.
I've never used tri-cams, but having some HB offsets, I'd humbly suggest that because they're more like nuts & less niche than tri-cams are, you'd probably find them (more) intuitively usable.
Post edited at 14:06
In reply to GrahamD:
A wild country super light offset will still give you that extra 4 wire placement (at a compromised strength, as per CurlyStevo's post) but also the offset option in the other orientation. Best of both worlds........
> Not necessarily. In my case its to make sure I don't run out of, say, number 4 wires on a large pitch.
A wild country super light offset will still give you that extra 4 wire placement (at a compromised strength, as per CurlyStevo's post) but also the offset option in the other orientation. Best of both worlds........
In reply to galpinos:
Only if you like the placements of offsets in 'normal' cracks. I personally don't think offsets sit as well and can be a total pain to get out. All personal preference, really
> A wild country super light offset will still give you that extra 4 wire placement (at a compromised strength, as per CurlyStevo's post) but also the offset option in the other orientation. Best of both worlds........
Only if you like the placements of offsets in 'normal' cracks. I personally don't think offsets sit as well and can be a total pain to get out. All personal preference, really
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In reply to GrahamD:
Fair dos. As you say, personal preference!
To the OP: The UKC review of the small ones, if only they were made again!
https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=880
Fair dos. As you say, personal preference!
To the OP: The UKC review of the small ones, if only they were made again!
https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=880
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In reply to galpinos:
I believe the small ones are in the pipeline. Not sure of a landing date though.
I believe the small ones are in the pipeline. Not sure of a landing date though.
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In reply to GrahamD:
Having just spent 20 minutes+ hanging on a rope at stanage trying to get out a gold dmm offset that was pivoting on its widest point, I agree entirely
Having just spent 20 minutes+ hanging on a rope at stanage trying to get out a gold dmm offset that was pivoting on its widest point, I agree entirely
In reply to beardy mike:
Excellent news.
I can stop keeping my solitary gold #4 for best now.
Also just ordered some superlight offsets on the strength of these recommendations.
What is the best way to rub off the anodising, apparently its only 25 micron thick?
Excellent news.
I can stop keeping my solitary gold #4 for best now.
Also just ordered some superlight offsets on the strength of these recommendations.
What is the best way to rub off the anodising, apparently its only 25 micron thick?
Post edited at 18:27
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In reply to Rick Graham:
With rock dontcha know. All you hav to dois brandish them in a bunch at your local rock and it will fall right off all sides instantly
With rock dontcha know. All you hav to dois brandish them in a bunch at your local rock and it will fall right off all sides instantly
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I carry the DMM alloy offsets and a set of DMM brass offsets too. Find myself preferentially going for offsets over regular wallnuts most times. They generally seat very well and most of the time I find, better than wallnuts.
I carry the DMM alloy offsets and a set of DMM brass offsets too. Find myself preferentially going for offsets over regular wallnuts most times. They generally seat very well and most of the time I find, better than wallnuts.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Hi, I guess it's horses for courses. If you were to take a factor 2 fall with a particularly unforgiving rope onto a single superlight offset then it would be as marginal as a number 1 rock or wall nut in the same place. Climbing in more normal circumstances with half ropes it would be pretty difficult to generate 7kN. Superlight offsets wouldn't be my first choice for a belay, but then they aren't my first choice as a nut.....they simply plug a gap. My point being is I would be less inclined to carry a second/third set at the weight of DMM offsets.
So if you are going to use as a standard nut most of the time then buy DMM, if you want a gap filling option then it's superlight offsets for me.
Hi, I guess it's horses for courses. If you were to take a factor 2 fall with a particularly unforgiving rope onto a single superlight offset then it would be as marginal as a number 1 rock or wall nut in the same place. Climbing in more normal circumstances with half ropes it would be pretty difficult to generate 7kN. Superlight offsets wouldn't be my first choice for a belay, but then they aren't my first choice as a nut.....they simply plug a gap. My point being is I would be less inclined to carry a second/third set at the weight of DMM offsets.
So if you are going to use as a standard nut most of the time then buy DMM, if you want a gap filling option then it's superlight offsets for me.
In reply to beardy mike:
Get in! Loved my last set and was distraught to see them drop into the sea below Gogarth a couple of years ago......
Get in! Loved my last set and was distraught to see them drop into the sea below Gogarth a couple of years ago......
In reply to Kafoozalem:
My local crag is sea cliff limestone and I would guess I place an equal number of normal to offset placements based on best fit.
My local crag is sea cliff limestone and I would guess I place an equal number of normal to offset placements based on best fit.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I think offsets are great. I definitely place them more often than standard nuts. Climbing on Gimmer yesterday, on one long pitch I got to the belay stance, placed three offsets for the anchor, then as my mate was coming up noticed that every single nut he was taking out was also an offset. The DMM ones are superb.
Hope that helps.
Graham
I think offsets are great. I definitely place them more often than standard nuts. Climbing on Gimmer yesterday, on one long pitch I got to the belay stance, placed three offsets for the anchor, then as my mate was coming up noticed that every single nut he was taking out was also an offset. The DMM ones are superb.
Hope that helps.
Graham
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I liked the look of the WC offset rocks when they first came out but decided against them on the grounds that I didn't feel confident in the lower wire strength. Others have confirmed, I think, that it's 7 kN as opposed to 12 kN - quite a difference. I think WC may have done this because the thicker wire used on normal rocks won't fit in the constricted shape at the "thin" end of the offset design, but it may be just to save weight.
I already had a full set of the DMM brass micro offsets to which I've added the gold and blue standard DMM offsets which I'm putting to good use . I find that above that size I get good placements in slightly flared placements using standard rocks sideways on.
Martin
I liked the look of the WC offset rocks when they first came out but decided against them on the grounds that I didn't feel confident in the lower wire strength. Others have confirmed, I think, that it's 7 kN as opposed to 12 kN - quite a difference. I think WC may have done this because the thicker wire used on normal rocks won't fit in the constricted shape at the "thin" end of the offset design, but it may be just to save weight.
I already had a full set of the DMM brass micro offsets to which I've added the gold and blue standard DMM offsets which I'm putting to good use . I find that above that size I get good placements in slightly flared placements using standard rocks sideways on.
Martin
In reply to davidbeynon:
And I guess the increase in rock contact will mean the rock is less likely to fail, and the increase in friction will mean the placement is less likely to come out due to rope drag.
> No. The placements you get with offsets are qualitatively similar to the ones you get with "normal" nuts, but they go better in flares.
And I guess the increase in rock contact will mean the rock is less likely to fail, and the increase in friction will mean the placement is less likely to come out due to rope drag.
In reply to dr_botnik:
This is the exact point I made earlier in the thread
> Having just spent 20 minutes+ hanging on a rope at stanage trying to get out a gold dmm offset that was pivoting on its widest point, I agree entirely
This is the exact point I made earlier in the thread
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In reply to radddogg:
How do we know that's not saying more about you than the Offsets? In my early climbing days my pals and I built winter racks from badly placed and subsequently 'stuck' nuts recovered from crags... Wildcat in particular seemed like a magnet for nut placement and removal incompetants. Some people insist on repeated yanking of nuts into less than ideal placements where a better nearby placement and a small bedding tug would be more appropriate and way easier to remove.
I do acknowledge some nuts are more difficult to clean than others.... some wildly curved nuts I had (super rocks?) were a noticable pain but did fit some crozzely placements better than others.
How do we know that's not saying more about you than the Offsets? In my early climbing days my pals and I built winter racks from badly placed and subsequently 'stuck' nuts recovered from crags... Wildcat in particular seemed like a magnet for nut placement and removal incompetants. Some people insist on repeated yanking of nuts into less than ideal placements where a better nearby placement and a small bedding tug would be more appropriate and way easier to remove.
I do acknowledge some nuts are more difficult to clean than others.... some wildly curved nuts I had (super rocks?) were a noticable pain but did fit some crozzely placements better than others.
Post edited at 12:26
4
In reply to Offwidth:
I think the DMM offsets have a bit of tendency to get hard to remove if you try to tug them out and fail - more so than other nuts. Also when fitting them in to flares if you really wiggle them in to the best spot and seat them there can be no easy way to get them out sometimes as pulling them up fails and pushing them from the bottom can have the same effect (a bit like would happen on the old silver wallnuts in a sideways placement from time to time)
Overall though I think once used to placing and removing them they aren't much worse than wallnuts, but defo a bit harder harder to remove than rocks (which I find the easiest of the nuts I own). At least the dmm offsets don't have a bit hollow on one pair of sides that irregularities can get stuck in when removing.
Not used the WC offset superlights so can comment but the standard superlights were ok to remove in general.
I think the DMM offsets have a bit of tendency to get hard to remove if you try to tug them out and fail - more so than other nuts. Also when fitting them in to flares if you really wiggle them in to the best spot and seat them there can be no easy way to get them out sometimes as pulling them up fails and pushing them from the bottom can have the same effect (a bit like would happen on the old silver wallnuts in a sideways placement from time to time)
Overall though I think once used to placing and removing them they aren't much worse than wallnuts, but defo a bit harder harder to remove than rocks (which I find the easiest of the nuts I own). At least the dmm offsets don't have a bit hollow on one pair of sides that irregularities can get stuck in when removing.
Not used the WC offset superlights so can comment but the standard superlights were ok to remove in general.
Post edited at 12:52
In reply to Offwidth:
In my own opinion I'm not a "removal incompetent" but then, in my opinion, you're a dick. I could be wrong on one topic, but not the other.
> How do we know that's not saying more about you than the Offsets?
In my own opinion I'm not a "removal incompetent" but then, in my opinion, you're a dick. I could be wrong on one topic, but not the other.
12
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Sounds sensible, I always remove nuts carefully unless they are really stuck as doing otherwise makes it more likely to get things stuck and distort or fray the wires. I also find Rocks marginally the easiest to remove but not quite as good for fitting less than ideal placements so I never use them now except a few on my winter rack. My normal long/multi pitch passive rack is an old drilled hex 8, Walnuts, HB Offsets and a variety of about 15 microwires (supplemented by passive tricams, extra Walnuts or Offsets if required). I never 'weld in' placements by repeated heavy yanking, so can't compare removability with that (usually foolish) style.
Sounds sensible, I always remove nuts carefully unless they are really stuck as doing otherwise makes it more likely to get things stuck and distort or fray the wires. I also find Rocks marginally the easiest to remove but not quite as good for fitting less than ideal placements so I never use them now except a few on my winter rack. My normal long/multi pitch passive rack is an old drilled hex 8, Walnuts, HB Offsets and a variety of about 15 microwires (supplemented by passive tricams, extra Walnuts or Offsets if required). I never 'weld in' placements by repeated heavy yanking, so can't compare removability with that (usually foolish) style.
In reply to dr_botnik:
I'm pretty sure that post will get removed by the mods but maybe one day you will realise childish personal attacks are a clear sign of exactly what you accuse me of. I simply don't find either type of offset that hard to remove and have a lot of experience with the DMM variety but less so with the WC ones. The littering of crags with stuck nuts shows too many climbers can't place and remove gear properly... in 30 odd years of climbing I can't recal leaving a 'stuck' nut we placed behind (and I have removed as much as I sensibly can of what other parties got stuck)
I'm pretty sure that post will get removed by the mods but maybe one day you will realise childish personal attacks are a clear sign of exactly what you accuse me of. I simply don't find either type of offset that hard to remove and have a lot of experience with the DMM variety but less so with the WC ones. The littering of crags with stuck nuts shows too many climbers can't place and remove gear properly... in 30 odd years of climbing I can't recal leaving a 'stuck' nut we placed behind (and I have removed as much as I sensibly can of what other parties got stuck)
Post edited at 15:59
2
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Superlight offsets are easier to remove than the DMMs (maybe due to the lower contact area?). At least that's been my experience. Let's not even get started on a DMM offset that's seen a fall... On the upside, at least there reassurance in knowing the nuts are unlikely to pop out on you.
Superlight offsets are easier to remove than the DMMs (maybe due to the lower contact area?). At least that's been my experience. Let's not even get started on a DMM offset that's seen a fall... On the upside, at least there reassurance in knowing the nuts are unlikely to pop out on you.
Post edited at 15:57
1
In reply to Offwidth:
In your post of 12.25 you came across as a bit of an arse to me.
This could have been avoided by altering a few words without affecting your overall intent, I would surmise.
Botnik reacted to your post and has received a few likes, one of mine included.
HTH Rick
In your post of 12.25 you came across as a bit of an arse to me.
This could have been avoided by altering a few words without affecting your overall intent, I would surmise.
Botnik reacted to your post and has received a few likes, one of mine included.
HTH Rick
Post edited at 16:00
7
In reply to Rick Graham:
Calling people names is both childish and against site rules. Maybe my tone was more depressed bemusement than rudeness as I just don't get how so many experienced climbers leave behind so many nuts. The likes of Wildcat is hardly a good beginners crag.
TobyA made a good point on Offsets here:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1066
I actually see this head slip as a part advantage as having a free loop is handy to reef knot nuts for extra reach or to loop on bolts missing hangers (in the US) and my Walnuts are often a bit stiff to shift the wire. Needing a slight tap from the nut key is a fair price for the wider ability to protect flared cracks.
Calling people names is both childish and against site rules. Maybe my tone was more depressed bemusement than rudeness as I just don't get how so many experienced climbers leave behind so many nuts. The likes of Wildcat is hardly a good beginners crag.
TobyA made a good point on Offsets here:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1066
I actually see this head slip as a part advantage as having a free loop is handy to reef knot nuts for extra reach or to loop on bolts missing hangers (in the US) and my Walnuts are often a bit stiff to shift the wire. Needing a slight tap from the nut key is a fair price for the wider ability to protect flared cracks.
3
In reply to beardy mike:
It is for the 2 sets I have ... will very likely be using them this month in Yosemite to reef together and reach placements that are otherwise an energy sapping stretch.
It is for the 2 sets I have ... will very likely be using them this month in Yosemite to reef together and reach placements that are otherwise an energy sapping stretch.
In reply to Offwidth:
Yep. But they've been glued since pretty much the first year they were made so worth pointing out as it's not the current situation. I did notice on a friend's rack the other day that the small walnuts are now machined the same way.
Yep. But they've been glued since pretty much the first year they were made so worth pointing out as it's not the current situation. I did notice on a friend's rack the other day that the small walnuts are now machined the same way.
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