UKC

Czech climber Adam Ondra has completed his long-term 9c crack project at the Flatanger cave in Norway, which Adam gave the working title of 'Project Hard.' We have no details as yet from Adam, but this route will be the first of the grade and the hardest sport climb in the world if Adam confirms his initial thoughts.

Read more

In reply to UKC News:

Great work. Harder than Gaskins' VNB?

In reply to UKC News:

Amazing stuff, incredible that's he still only 24, seems like he's been pushing the limits forever.

In reply to UKC News:

Interesting that he said last week he didn't feel he deserved the sport climbing award at Arco coz he hadn't done anything that great this year. Not sure who else has done better but seems like he's really earned it now.

So that means, if 9c, he's broken through two grade barriers in his career. Not sure who was the last person to do this.

I wonder what he'll turn his attention to now. Presumably the Flatanger season is over now. Loads of hard projects in southern Europe though just about to come into good conditions in the coming weeks/months.

In reply to UKC News:

Short vid of Project Hard from his Youtube channel a couple of months ago...

youtube.com/watch?v=wdCtHqmMnjw&

In reply to UKC News:

May I ask how you go about bolting a ceiling route ?

In reply to Donotello:

To be honest... that alone is probably 7a.

In reply to Donotello:

Amazing work Adam!!!

@Donny M: You drop a line from the top and using a high bolt placed at the start of the roof section create something like a tyrolean rope traverse. You clip the new bolts as you move across keeping yourself pinned to the ceiling.

In reply to stp:



Not a great ad for BD krabs that! Check out 0.57 on the video. Funny, my mate 'broke' one of the plaingate versions of those krabs when it twisted off a bolt. He came quite close to a groundfall as a result.

In reply to stp:

Depending on who you ask, the last one would have been Sharma with Biographie (9a+) and I think Jumbo Love or Golpe de estado (9b). Before that I guess it would have been Güllich with Punks in the gym (8b+) and Wallstreet (8c).

In reply to UKC News:

Just really impressive So a v15 crux on a route, what's that f8c? Thats so close to what's currently possible as moves in isolation never mind as part of a sport climb it's ridiculous....

In reply to eddiherkules:
I think there are several pre-Biographie things, mostly by the Hubers, that are now regarded as 9a+ although they may not have been given the grade at the time.

In reply to UKC News:

Why all this vacillating over the next grade. He's sure it's much harder than anything else he's done. He's done all the 9b+'s. If it's identifiably harder then it's the next grade - surely that's the idea of grades.

From this distance it sounds like he's in danger of falling into the same trap that has bedeviled UK grades - being overcautious with the next grade.

Having said all that, the grade is relatively irrelevant whilst there are so few people that it has any real relevance to.

Brilliant achievement. How much harder can he climb?

In reply to UKC News:

Still, what really made him stand-out imo is that he is both doing these kinde crazy sport climbs, but also did dawnwall in a month time.

In reply to Michael Hood:


He's considering suggesting he's climbed the hardest sport route in the world (again!!!), so I would guess he wants to take time to consider things. Why the rush? Grading is all very subjective, when you get closer to your own personal limit (maybe something he is considering), or climbing in a style that you're not used to (something I think he mentioned about this route) there are a few things to consider. It's not like 9b+ is well established, only Sharma has done one apart from Ondra, so he's out there by himself without any validation of his grading.

In reply to Michael Hood:
"If it's identifiably harder then it's the next grade - surely that's the idea of grades."

No that is not how I understand it. A grade covers an agreed range. IF a route is harder than 3 other E1s it doesn't necessarily make it an E2

In reply to stp:



I hadn't seen that clip before so thanks for posting. The entire route - well, the bits I've seen - make it appear an incredible line. It's quite visionary that he saw it and managed to make a complete route from it.

In reply to Shani:


It's probably not no, but then, at least its actually been done...

In reply to snoop6060:


Is it really fair to suggest Gaskins lied about it? I don't know the man, or know of any evidence for/against any of his ascents, but I would take his word for it in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Who cares about gaskins, Adam ondra just climbed 9c!

In reply to douwe:


I'm happy to stand alone, but I respect a person more for their integrity and honesty than how hard they climb. The world, and discussion, doesn't stop cause Ondra climbed a bit of rock.

OfcoutseoIn reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Ofcourse.
I just find it a bit disheartening that on a newsthread about a world class climbing achievement John gaskins has to be discussed. (Or E grades, or Ben moon, or grit stone etc.)

In reply to douwe:
Spot on! Bloody depressing.

W

In reply to douwe:


I wouldn't be too down , I made a Gaskins joke to a friend. I don't think a few crappy jokes are going to take anything away from what he's done. Not a personal criticism, but sometimes there's a tendency to take these things too seriously. Obviously it's an amazing achievement by the world's best sport climber.

In reply to Bogwalloper:


Ha ha, you lot are so serious.

In reply to Michael Hood:

"From this distance it sounds like he's in danger of falling into the same trap that has bedeviled UK grades - being overcautious with the next grade."

I know I'm trending a little off-route here, but I'm inclined to agree with you. I've always liked the UK trad grading system; the two pieces of information actually tell you a lot about the route. (I always remember the old Stanage guidebook's rule of thumb: E1 6a = ego damage, E5 6a = check for pulse...) I read a comment recently - probably on this site, though I can't remember - that the trad 6c grade was next door to meaningless, but that's a shame - there's no need for it to be, and if it is, one likely reason is a reluctance among cutting-edge climbers to use the 7's.

OK, I'm an ageing bumbly* struggling with finger injuries, who defers to anybody who climbs French grades with numbers bigger than 6. But it does seem improbable to me that there are climbs covering every E-number from 2 to 10 that are all given 6c.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch - hats of to Ondra. And not for the first time.

* Is that still a Thing?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I'm gonna go with yes...

I digress anyway, well done Adam. (Who I assume didn't belay himself in the middle of the night on the worlds first 9c).

In reply to snoop6060:


I'd love to respond but the forum police/hero worship brigade are all over this one...

In reply to snoop6060:


Ouch!

I thought VNB was 9b+ and like 'Akira', really ahead of its time. Hence I'm curious as to how these new routes compare. I'd love to see them repeated.

In reply to UKC News:

10 years ago, who would have put money on the world's hardest route turning up in Norway ?

In reply to GrahamD:


Or, perhaps more to the point, not on limestone.

In reply to GrahamD:

Well at least Pete Liversy wrote an article some 35/40 years age in crags predicting that some Eastern European would do this because of their gymnastics background.

Not far from the truth.

In reply to Shani:

Agreed, I look forward to the day Akira gets repeated and cannot believe that it's not had the serious attention it deserves.

In reply to Toerag:

some of the holds got destroyed didn't they? Shortly after the initial ascent, which is why he could repeat the moves when asked too... And deepened suspicion that he hadn't done as he claimed

In reply to La benya:
An old article, but well worth a read...

https://www.climbing.com/people/fred-rouhling/

In reply to Ben Farley:

Thanks Ben, I was just about to post a link to that same story.

In reply to neilh:

Except the lack of gymnastics background?

In reply to Ben Farley:

Well Bugger me backwards, I think that's the very article I read, but completely mis-remembered it!


Thanks for posting it to set me straight.

In reply to Ben Farley:

Good story, thanks for that.

In reply to Steve Perry:

I've just been reading a few other threads and stuff on Rouhling, from various (mainly US sites) and its amazing how often you read that apparently Rouhling is massively tall with a freakish ape index. Clearly not, according to the article. Funny how the rumour mill grinds on regardless.

In reply to Ben Farley:


Thanks, really interesting read that. Pity some people still insist on undermining other climber's achievements without any proof.

In reply to eddiherkules:


Certainly Sharma did appear a good candidate at the time. But now more light has been shed on Akira and Chilam Balam has been repeated it's not so clear. The upgrading of Huber's route also takes the first 9a+ position now.

Not sure that Punks was the first 8b+. Did Le Rage de Vivre at Buoux predate it? If so maybe Antoine Le Menestrel could have been the last person with La Rose and then Rage (though at the time his brother's Chouca claimed the first 8b title). Either way is a long time ago and an extremely rare acheivement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/czech-climber-sets-new-benchm...

In reply to UKC News:

There's a really interesting and more in depth interview, and another good video, at Planet Mountain:

http://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/interviews/adam-ondra-climbs-worlds-f...

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Nah. If you are claiming world class achievements, world records of the day, you should be expected to be able to provide some proof. Even a belayer is a start, given you need one for such things in climbing, so is it really too much to ask that at least one person says you did it?

In reply to UKC News:

From another interesting interview:

"I realized that endurance has almost no effect on this project, because there are so many no hand rests. It’s a kinda fitness route, one has to be fit to send it – climb plenty problems on boulder with short rest pauses. That’s exactly what you need. You certainly don’t need to climb 40 moves in a row. There are no more than 15 moves in a row without a knee rest."

http://emontana.cz/adam-ondra-9c-project-hard

In reply to snoop6060:


At least the top climbers know what you expect now.

In reply to Doug:

I like how this website gets a mention in the grauniad! Direct link too. Top marks for anyone who spots the spelling mistake :'D

In reply to dr_botnik:


Is it 'grauniad'?

In reply to dr_botnik:

Five of six rather than five or six. If I were being particularly pedantic (perish the thought), I would have written open-ended rather than open ended.

In reply to Ben Farley:

Some difference between 5' 9" and 6' 5" with a 7+ Ape index.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

And while people talk about possible climbing cons, what's Rich Simpson doing these days? 3 min miles?

In reply to stp:


Virtually meaningless though, given that grade boundaries are just arbitrary cut off points in a hypothetical and, to some extent, subjective graded list. Who's to say that going from, say, bottom end 9a to top end 9a+ isn't a much bigger advance than going from top end 9a to bottom end 9b?

In reply to eddiherkules:

9b grade had been given long before Biographie was climbed Akira.

In reply to Robert Durran:



That's why 2 grades is significant. At the top level, that's a massive leap forward in standards. Going up 1 grade wouldn't necessarily mean that, as top end 9b and bottom end 9b+ could be very similar.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Yes, but my point is that, in the absence of where the routes lie within a grade, going up one grade might be a bigger jump than going up two grades. We just don't know. And there is also the fact that grades are not measurable (like, say, times in running); they are just a range of difficulty between arbitrary cut off points - it is meaningless to say that they have "equal" width.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Well yes, but you could say the same about the 4 minute mile, the 10sec 100m or the 2 hour marathon. Even though these are completely objective measures, the 'breakthrough' still has a psychological value. Although at least if an athlete runs a sub 10 sec 100m, you rarely get people arguing if it was 'really' sub 10. Unless it was in Mexico...

In reply to Robert Durran:

Not saying that isn't true. But 2 grades increase has meaning. Big increase in standards at the top end. That was my only point. 1 grade could mean that, but not necessarily.

Ignoring the obvious about grades being subjective and not measurable.

In reply to AJM:

Nope, Adam did gymnastics before starting to climb. Recreational gymnastics.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Yes, I agree. But at least one second improvement is always the same improvement in time, unlike one grade in climbing ("same" in climbing being unmeasurable).


Yes, but only because we happen to have ten fingers and use decimal system, the "accident" of how a second is defined and the convenience of 60 having lots of factors. The psychological breakthrough is of an effectively arbitrary barrier. For the same reason I find the kudos given to one day ascents of alpine routes or big walls pretty daft.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Absolutely. So if Ondra is the only climber to have pushed through two grade "barriers", it doesn't necessarily mean that he has pushed standards more than others. that was my only point!

In reply to ThunderBeest:

Fair enough.

Somehow I'm dubious that he's done this "because of his gymnastics background" as per the initial suggestion...

In reply to Shani:


There's no point trying to compare them, they couldn't be more different.

In reply to Robert Durran:

No, maybe he hasn't. It will be interesting to see how history judges what he's done, when these routes at 9b+/9c get some repeats, and the grades become more established. The boulder grades at the top end do seem to be suffering from a lot of downgrading.

In reply to simes303:


And yet that is what we do by containing routes of vastly differing natures in a grading system.

If a 'wad' has climbed a route at their limit that other strong climbers have been unable to repeat, then regardless of style of climbing, the challenge is there to repeat it and I am keen to see others try it.

In reply to Shani:


I think all the hard, unrepeated routes have a sense of mystery. How hard are they? VNB, Mutation, Rainman, Ondra's cutting edge stuff at Flatanger.

In reply to UKC News:

Now we have got to 9c the obvious question is, is it time to stop adding grades and have a scale that stops before it gets to 10. There would be something elegant about a system which runs 0..9 with a/b/c subdivisions. Would we lose anything by making 9c the hardest grade that could be applied to any route?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Yes, when the problems that YSD had in the early days (when it topped out at 5.9) or what the current UK Trad grade faces (while technically open ended, most seem to still have it more or less as fixed).

Of course, all this is not that important until Megos, Ondra or the new kids on the block step up again with a new level of difficulty...

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Besides having to change the grades of every other route every time someone did a new hardest route?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Well I for one am looking forward to the memes on the day someone goes to 11.

In reply to Lemony:


You're a bit late... Ewbanks already solved that one like eons ago...

And even UIAA has gone past 11 already.

In reply to douwe:



There is always room for the G!

In reply to Arms Cliff:

You don't create a whole new grade every time someone subjectively feels that their new route is harder than the previous hardest route. A grade should represent a sufficiently broad range of difficulty that there are a fairly large number of routes within it and a clear distinction to the 'next level' where another grade is required.

When you get to less than 10 people being able to climb at the highest grade and it taking a year for one of those people to project a route at that grade maybe you are at the point where you are sufficiently close to the limits of human physique you don't need any more grades because there is plenty of 'space' in the last grade for anything likely to be done.

Arguably, 'grade inflation' is the actual problem when people want to call a new project a new grade to increase the publicity value and that inflation at the top drags up the grades of lower graded climbs over time. A closed system which never goes beyond 9c would stop grade inflation and probably result in more stable grading.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Nonsense. It might be arbitrary where the boundary lies, and open to abuse from those who want to make a headline, but it is perfectly possible for these routes to be sufficiently harder to warrant a new grade. Based on your logic Mark Leach on Cry Freedom would be the maximum grade still allowed today. Are you really saying that all routes 8c and upwards are basically the same difficulty?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

There doesn't seem to have been a reduction in the amount of climbers operating just behind the top flight repeating 9b's etc. if anything an increase, and no stagnation in new levels of difficulty. 9a ascents barely raise an eyebrow now when 10 years ago that would have put you near the top of the game. http://novebi.ning.com/profiles/blogs/from-6a-to-9b-first-ascents-in

You will always have less than 10 people climbing the highest grade, as you will always have less than 10 people within a certain distance of a sprint or marathon world record, that's how elite sport works. Considering that sprinting and marathon times keep going down, and climbing is in its infancy compared to those sports, its laughable to think that difficulty will not continue to increase.

Objectively these new routes are harder than the ones before, involving harder cruxes or more frequent passages of hard climbing between poorer rests. This route has an 8C crux, so when Ondra does a route in 5 years time that has back to back 8C cruxes that should still be the same grade?

In reply to gethin_allen:

That 3 minute mile thing is cheap shot really as whatever Rich did or didn't do on rock there is still video evidence of his incredible power and strength: he wasn't an out-and-out climbing fantasist like some claimants in the past; he certainly had the ability to do the routes.

In reply to drysori:


I'm saying that with numbers from 3..9, letters a/b/c and + we have 7 x 3 x 2 = 42 possible grades and that a scale with 42 categories is enough to classify the difficulty of climbs to a reasonable resolution. We don't need to keep adding new categories at the top: there's going to be so few things which are as hard or harder than 9c (or I guess 9c+ which isn't used yet) that they can all go in the same 'box'. A category or grade is not a time or distance like a world record, it is supposed to cover a range.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

and what others have been trying to explain is that, if you'd used the same reasoning at any time in the past, you'd have been proved wrong.
It's very tempting to think that our current conception of impossible is somehow absolute, but history tells us we'd be wrong to do so. And for that we will need at least one new grade.
Of course, you could try to allow for this by 'saving' a number of extra grades for future use, but then ... why?

In reply to Offwidth:


I think the fact he claimed a 4 min mile, 2:30 marathon and 16 fight undefeated boxing career, non of which could be verified by anyone at either the race track he claimed to run at, the NYC marathon he claimed to have run or the boxing commissions he claimed to have fought under indicates that he was a bit of a fantasist , although I'll agree that he was well above punter standard. I think everyone's seen the vid of him doing 9 one arm pullups in a row.

In reply to gethin_allen:

I complained about the 3 minute mile gibe; if you have the right muscle type, work hard in the specified training and don't get injured, a 4 minute mile is not so special these days.

http://www.nuts.org.uk/sub-4/index.htm

One armers were hardly relevant... there were also witnesses and the odd clip of him climbing hard woodie problems and key sections of some of the disputed routes so he was good enough to do the moves.

In reply to Offwidth:


That depends how you define 'not so special'. Son of a clubmate was just shy of 4 mins a couple of years ago in 4.00.13. He was 7th fastest in the UK that year ...it's still a Very Good Time. What would that be in climbing terms, 8c+?

Anyways, sorry about the ukc distraction. That Adam Ondra: pretty good

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
How do you know routes won't get much harder than 9c or 9c+? That's an easy thing to assume - this is currently the living end so this must be the living end. Whereas in practice this has been proved wrong every time someone has gone and done something a bit harder. So imposing a grade ceiling is entirely arbitrary and will just lead to grade bunching at the top end.

Let's just congratulate Ondra on his achievement and accept that when he says it's much harder, it really is much harder. Which is also suggested by the length of time it took him to do it...

In reply to UKC News:

Out of interest, any idea how much longer than other hard projects e.g. Dura Dura (hard 9b+?), this took him?

In reply to samwillo:

La D. D. - some 20 days. I think Adam uses the time spent on a route as one indicator of its grade. If he can OS it, it is probably not more that 8c+. If he needs several go's within one day, it's 9a. If he needed 2-3 days: 9a+ and 3-6 days mean 9b. The first 9b+ Change required some 30 days. Vasil Vasil in his backyard is hard to guess as he did not have to ride there for week-long stays. The new 9c took almost 50 days on the rock plus many days of specialized training,

In reply to steveriley:


And a thoroughly nice young lad as well.

In reply to igi2:


Sounds like it might be 9c+

In reply to UKC News:

Still reckon he'd struggle on the start of Verandah Buttress.

In reply to Shani:

Let us say hard 9c, surely more than 9b+. And if he says he still wasn't on his absolute limit, some (other) 9c+ might be possible, if he finds the motivation.
Btw his girlfriend Eva was on the lower end of the rope, hence I suggest the name for the route: Adam and Eva.

In reply to igi2:

Oops, she is Iva, thus "Adam and Iva".

In reply to igi2:


Ok. We can call it E12.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Bear in mind that when the first route of a new grade is done it usually necessitates a jump in difficulty. If a route is only slightly harder than existing routes then it will probably be considered the same grade as those.

This was perhaps the problem with bouldering grades. There was no big jump to 8C+, just a very gradual progression - until Burden of Dreams came along for the first 9A.

In reply to stp:


Bah, Burden of Dream is pish easy... overhyped thing.

Here's some unknown Russian fellow showing how it is done...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYn-5YVAqdL/

In reply to HeMa:

To add, the climber is not Vadim, but his pal Artem... Who obviously can't climb for sh*te...


https://27crags.com/climbers/temka/ascents