/ And the world's most beautiful country is...

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no_more_scotch_eggs - on 04 Sep 2017
Scotland, of course....



https://www.theguardian.com/travel/shortcuts/2017/sep/04/scotland-voted-the-worlds-most-beatiful-cou...

From a rough guides poll, so unsurprisingly British isles-centric. But undoubtedly right...

This poll had Canada at number two. I'm not so sure, the Maritime provinces certainly weren't... my money would be on Chile, so many astounding and incredibly varied sights. Run close by the US and Bolivia.

What would your vote for second place be...?

;-)
Dr.S at work - on 04 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I'm a huge fan of Scotland, but Japan would win it for me - amazing country that I would love to revisit.
SouthernSteve on 04 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
> Scotland, of course....

Is that because its always being washed by the rain?
Moley on 04 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I daresay the 5 million acres of heather have something to do with that. But not to worry, there's plenty who would like it replaced with natural forestry and let the wolves loose, not sure that will hold the same attraction.
23
Big Ger - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Kernow.
3
RomTheBear on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Moley:

> I daresay the 5 million acres of heather have something to do with that. But not to worry, there's plenty who would like it replaced with natural forestry and let the wolves loose, not sure that will hold the same attraction.

We could do with a bit more natural forest in Scotland. A managed population of wolves/lynx could help it seems.

Although the prospects of wild camping with wolves around is slightly scary - it's ok, we'll send Liam Nesson
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> Kernow.

an interesting call... small, but perfectly formed.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to RomTheBear:

> We could do with a bit more natural forest in Scotland. A managed population of wolves/lynx could help it seems.

> Although the prospects of wild camping with wolves around is slightly scary - it's ok, we'll send Liam Nesson

they wouldnt last five minutes- they'd all plunge into the sea and swim somewhere else to try to escape the midges...

:-D
bedspring on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

If its so ace, why do only 6 million live there. Why do the 55 million who live in the rest of the UK not move there. Because its cold, damp, full of midges and Scots. Even the Scots do not want to live there look at the huge Scottish diaspora.
Italy or California for me ( I know its a state, but the sum total of the USA would beat anything)
17
Bulls Crack - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to bedspring:

Maybe its more a ratio function? ie boring/ugly v beautiful. the British Isles do well in this repect I think.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to bedspring:
> If its so ace, why do only 6 million live there. Why do the 55 million who live in the rest of the UK not move there. Because its cold, damp, full of midges and Scots. Even the Scots do not want to live there look at the huge Scottish diaspora.

all deliberate negative propaganda we put out, we wouldn't want it to get too busy. made easier by the fact that many of our southern neighbours have very poor judgement...

> Italy or California for me ( I know its a state, but the sum total of the USA would beat anything)

you're wrong though- The People have spoken...

;-)

(agree with the US being pretty special though- well, the bits west of the mississippi at any rate)
Post edited at 10:10
bedspring on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
;-) yes we do the same thing in Lancashire with our Grim Opp North story, we keep the Trough of Bowland a secret, though apparently if the Queen retired, its where she would live.
Post edited at 10:14
rogerwebb - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to bedspring:

> If its so ace, why do only 6 million live there.

Because you can't eat scenery.

2
Dave Perry - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

For me its all relative. I don't know how many countries I've been to, but most of them have been "beautiful" when I visited - no doubt influenced by what I thought was beautiful at the time. Seychelles??? Went there before there was any tourist development. Just a tropical island like thousands and thousands of others. Never understood what all the fuss was about..
pasbury on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to bedspring:

> California

The Sierra are indeed sublime but much of the rest of California is a shithole (see central valley). Huge parts of the desert are sold off for tract housing.

My vote goes to Iceland - with the same proviso as for Scotland - it's hard work to live there.
1
Flinticus - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Not a country but Alaska.

Also would consider New Zealand, Sweden, Finland...

I live in Scotland but it's not the most beautiful in my opinion. Top vote as more people will have been here than any other country?
Chris Craggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I see Norway isn't in the Top 10 but England, Wales and Scotland are - parochial?

1. Scotland
2. Canada
3. New Zealand
4. Italy
5. South Africa
6. Indonesia
7. England
8. Iceland
9. USA
10. Wales

Chris
Mal Grey - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I guess if you value it against the size of the country, the sheer variety of Scotland's scenery gives it a strong case. Coast, hill, mountain, woodland, rivers, lochs, green border valleys, moors, islands, beaches, rock towers, bogs, etc, etc, it has it all.
In fact, the whole British Isles is remarkable for the variety of beautiful terrain in a small place. Its just too full of us people at times. I still argue that even in the crowded south east, you can find solitude and quiet beauty with remarkably little effort though.

Outside of the Home Nations, limiting it to places I've visited, the USA has to be up there with so many of the most amazing places, such as their many National and State Parks. Personally I have an affinity for the Scandinavian countries, and for beauty, Norway would probably win as I'm partial to pointy peaks and exciting coasts. So Slartibartfast's award for Best Coastline would definitely have got my vote. Iceland is arguably my favourite country, but I'm not sure I'd class it as being for beauty, as opposed to how spectacular and bonkers it is!

Places I haven't visited but look stunning would definitely include New Zealand and Chile.




no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Chris Craggs:

yes- the survey was conducted by a UK travel guide company so clearly slanted to the places that Brits visit. as others have said, the UK does pack a lot of variety into a small package, and some parts- especially the north west coast of scotland and the hebrides, are without doubt as spectacular as anything i've seen elsewhere.

indonesia at number 6 something of a surprise- i've never been, and i'm sure bits are lovely, but more so than Torres del Paine, or los glaciares national park in Argentina; or norway, or nepal, or switzerland?

and it doesnt strike me as a mass tourism destination so padded by the votes of people that have been there.
Robert Durran - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> The Sierra are indeed sublime but much of the rest of California is a shithole (see central valley). Huge parts of the desert are sold off for tract housing.

The Mojave desert is sublimely beautiful. As is Death Valley. Vast empty and protected areas.
1
pasbury on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> The Mojave desert is sublimely beautiful. As is Death Valley. Vast empty and protected areas.

Absolutely but look at this location:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Joshua+Tree+National+Park/@34.0939427,-116.3889865,5788m/data=!3...

It's just outside Joshua Tree National Park - toggle the map and satellite views to see the park boundary and the limit of tract housing.

The beauty of J Tree is tightly protected while all around is destroyed - this makes me sad.
Pids - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> Kernow.

Nice, but too over populated so detracts from the scenery
Pids - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> Absolutely but look at this location:


> It's just outside Joshua Tree National Park - toggle the map and satellite views to see the park boundary and the limit of tract housing.

> The beauty of J Tree is tightly protected while all around is destroyed - this makes me sad.

Ah, yes, but then people do have to live somewhere.

Where do you live? Would it be a nice(er) place if all human habitation was removed?
Pids - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Scotland is nice, however I would have to vote for India, way larger than Scotland but more variety in its scenery, natural and man made

NZ is also nice, however too similar to Scotland so of course Scotland wins that

India first, then Scotland for me.
1
Robert Durran - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> The beauty of J Tree is tightly protected while all around is destroyed - this makes me sad.

Yes, J Tree is almost on the edge of the LA sprawl, so needs that protection, but head north and there are vast empty areas in the Mojave.
L jameshorne - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Pids:

> Scotland is nice, however I would have to vote for India, way larger than Scotland but more variety in its scenery, natural and man made

> India first, then Scotland for me.

Yes, India is indeed beautiful. Have you visited Canada? It's landscapes are just awesome.

pasbury on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Pids:

This is not the organic growth of towns - it's the appropriation and destruction of the desert.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to jameshorne:

> Yes, India is indeed beautiful. Have you visited Canada? It's landscapes are just awesome.

Not in Nova Scotia, they're not. Dull beyond belief....!
dsh - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> Not in Nova Scotia, they're not. Dull beyond belief....!

One small part of the second largest country in the world by area is dull therefore the entire nation is rubbish.

Canada has incredible mountain scenery.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to dsh:

well, its not just Nova Scotia though, is it? New Brunswick and PEI are dull as dishwater too. Miles and miles and miles of trees. And not even very interesting trees. that's three provinces.

i bet saskatchewan and ontario are dull too. that's hundreds of thousands of square miles of tedium.

nope, too many weak links, letting the whole side down. not even first team material in this context...

;-)





Minneconjou Sioux - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=298830

Just in case you missed it
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

ach, its alright, is it really any better than Millport...?

;-)
Pids - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> ach, its alright, is it really any better than Millport...?

> ;-)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=millport+crocodile+rock&tbm=isch&imgil=XqXQins1lYRhnM%253A...
tomrainbow - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Pids:
My vote goes to The Solomon Islands - lagoons, atolls, volcanoes, jungle, wreck diving...

Second place goes to Bolivia.

Special mention to Utah (by far my favourite state) and The Azores...neither countries as such but really stunning places.

Scotland is pretty amazing, especially Sutherland but midges and rain detract.
Flinticus - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to tomrainbow:

And the f@#king deer keds. Don't forget them*

*See thread in hillwalking forum
MonkeyPuzzle - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Glad to see Indonesia made the list. Hills, volcanoes, pristine beaches, islands dotted in beautiful oceans, jungles, temples... Luckily you can fly to Bali and not have to look at Jakarta.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to tomrainbow:

> My vote goes to The Solomon Islands - lagoons, atolls, volcanoes, jungle, wreck diving...

That sounds amazing. Never been anywhere near that part of the world, but would love to.

> Second place goes to Bolivia.

Yes that tour of the south west with Laguna Colorado and the salar de uyuni is unparalleled

> Special mention to Utah (by far my favourite state) and The Azores...neither countries as such but really stunning places.

Azores, another place I'd love to see

> Scotland is pretty amazing, especially Sutherland but midges and rain detract.

I think the rain is part of the appeal. In a clear sky and flat light, the scenery is nice enough- but when a squall clears, the intensity of the light and shadow, and the colours in the sea and sky are just breathtaking. Without the rain, it wouldn't be half as good...
Eric9Points - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> The Sierra are indeed sublime but much of the rest of California is a shithole (see central valley). Huge parts of the desert are sold off for tract housing.

Have you visited Fife?

Or Wishaw?

There are beautiful parts of Scotland, I think the harmony of hill, sea and flora is pretty unique but there are a lot of places that I can think of that are just, if not more, beautiful. Norway for mountains, the Appuan Alps for hills, Arizona for mind boggling space, France for beautiful countryside and villages. As for the cities, Edinburgh is great but not in the same league as Venice and the rest of them range from nondescript to plain vile.
pasbury on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Eric9Points:

> Have you visited Fife?

> Or Wishaw?

I'll take them over Stockton, CA any time

Robert Durran - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Eric9Points:
> Have you visited Fife?

Parts of Fife are very nice. It's not all Kirkaldy and Cowdenbeath. Just like California is not all LA.
Post edited at 22:07
Coel Hellier - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to bedspring:

> the sum total of the USA would beat anything ..

We need to clarify whether we're considering the best parts of a country, or the "typical" parts, or some notion of an "average" scenic value.

The US has lots of totally amazing scenery, but it's spaced out by a lot of rather mediocre scenery.
Robert Durran - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to tomrainbow:

> Scotland is pretty amazing, especially Sutherland but midges and rain detract.

The rain and midges are not really significantly worse than the Lakes or N Wales and the changing light with the weather is a big part of whatt makes the landscape special. And it's usually possible to work round the midges, and, if not, just slap on repellent. But I'm happy for people to be deterred by both!

Gordon Stainforth - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

France has extraordinary variety – with Alps (highest mt in Europe + Cham aiguilles etc) and a Mediterranean coast, even greater than Britain. But ...

... no-one has yet mentioned Ireland. Totally unfashionable now with the Brits. Has many of the merits of Scotland, minus the midges. At least as 'beautiful' in its own way. Plus lovely, musical, witty, gentle people. Great food too. Even the whole central part is very empty. There is an enormous amount of great mountains in the west, and whole, quite big, hill ranges in the interior that few Brits have ever heard of. The little climbing I've done there has also been v good.
1
seankenny - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Remarkable that so few climbers on here are talking about the Himalayan countries, bar a couple of posters mentioning India.

Yet dull as dishwater Norway gets a lot of mentions.

Minneconjou Sioux - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> ... no-one has yet mentioned Ireland. Totally unfashionable now with the Brits. Has many of the merits of Scotland, minus the midges. At least as 'beautiful' in its own way. Plus lovely, musical, witty, gentle people. Great food too. Even the whole central part is very empty. There is an enormous amount of great mountains in the west, and whole, quite big, hill ranges in the interior that few Brits have ever heard of. The little climbing I've done there has also been v good.

Ireland has midges
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Parts of Fife are very nice.

The bridges leaving it...?



MonkeyPuzzle - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:

Ireland definitely has midges. We've met.
Lion Bakes on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Yes Ireland is particularly nice, the west coast is stunning in so many ways.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> France has extraordinary variety – with Alps (highest mt in Europe + Cham aiguilles etc) and a Mediterranean coast, even greater than Britain. But ...

Pedant alert.... Mont Blanc not the highest in Europe, that distinction belongs to Elbrus.

> ... no-one has yet mentioned Ireland. Totally unfashionable now with the Brits. Has many of the merits of Scotland, minus the midges. At least as 'beautiful' in its own way. Plus lovely, musical, witty, gentle people. Great food too. Even the whole central part is very empty. There is an enormous amount of great mountains in the west, and whole, quite big, hill ranges in the interior that few Brits have ever heard of. The little climbing I've done there has also been v good.

Ireland a good shout; the area west of Galway struck me as almost otherworldly in its beauty, and I'd love to go back. But... in the end there's nothing quite like this...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=luskentyre+beach&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB739GB740&hl=en-GB&prmd=misvn&sour...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=chaipaval+harris&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB739GB740&hl=en-GB&prmd=niv&source...
Post edited at 23:56
Gordon Stainforth - on 05 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Harris. Yes, has many of the qualities of Ireland, but much wilder ... plus absolutely savage midges and mosquitos, and often savage weather.

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

'Elemental' is how I would describe it in that part of the world- feels like everything unnecessary has been stripped away leaving only rock, and water, and wind, and light.... even on a wild day, it feels alive just being there.

Never actually been to Harris- but will get there one day. But have been to Islay, and tiree, and uist, and the coasts of wester Ross and sutherland, and the whole area is up there with the canyonlands of Utah and Colorado, and the Patagonian Andes as one of the scenic highlights of the world, for my money.
Gordon Stainforth - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Actually, I'd pick Sutherland ahead of Harris or Uist. Because the mountains are just so superbly different.
Big Ger - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Pids:

> Nice, but too over populated so detracts from the scenery

Only 7 counties in England are less densely populated.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

Well, yes; but given England is the 10th most densely populated country on earth (excluding assorted tiny Caribbean island micro states etc) that's not a particularly persuasive claim..!

It's real beauty is its coastal scenery though, which is less compromised by the number of people in the landscape; a finer stretch of coastal scenery than the north penwith coast would be hard to find, and the human impact e.g. Mining activity actually enhances it, in my view
Big Ger - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

We agree. I cannot wait to return to my little cottage, with only three fields between me and that coastal scenery. (A footpath to the cliffs runs behind my house, bliss.)
Robert Durran - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> It's real beauty is its coastal scenery though.

But England's coastal scenery doesn't come anywhere close to competing with Scotland or, from what I've heard, Ireland. If England's dubious top ten claim has any merit then I think it comes from it's gently beautiful hills like the Yorkshire dales and maybe the Lakes.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:
Big Ger is just talking about the Independent Republic of Kernow though, i think...

And while its coast may not quite hit the heights of the hebrides, its not bad at all, especially the stretch from cape cornwall past sennen and st ives to godrevy. quite jealous he's got that on his doorstep...!
Post edited at 10:11
Robert Durran - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> Big Ger is just talking about the Independent Republic of Kernow though, i think...

I've no idea where that is - I was replying to your post!

> And while its coast may not quite hit the heights of the hebrides, its not bad at all, especially the stretch from cape cornwall past sennen and st ives to godrevy.

It's alright I suppose, but where Cornwall falls short is that you only ever have to go a few hundred metres inland for things to become pretty drab.
Jim C - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Dr.S at work:
> I'm a huge fan of Scotland, but Japan would win it for me - amazing country that I would love to revisit.

If you want to meet Japanese people, come to Luss on Loch Lomond ( they are all here taking photos;)
The current fad seems to be very brightly coloured clothes and fluorescent scarves which they all wave around or let flap in the breeze. I really enjoy watching them, and often offer to take photographs for them.
Post edited at 10:23
toad - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Jim C:

Many years ago I was at A Castle near Oban ( can't remember it's proper name) and just as we were leaving an American tour group turned up. One walking, breathing cliche in a tam o'shanter asked me what there was to see there. When I told him about the amazing sights you could see From the battlements, he turned to his companion, said "it's just another view" and they headed back to the bus.......

1
Big Ger - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> Big Ger is just talking about the Independent Republic of Kernow though, i think...

The independent Nation of Cornwall, as recognised by the EU!!!

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-27132035

Big Ger - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> It's alright I suppose, but where Cornwall falls short is that you only ever have to go a few hundred metres inland for things to become pretty drab.

I disagree, but then again I would, I'll be living a few hundred feet inland...

Not metres , but still....

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I've no idea where that is - I was replying to your post!

Kernow is the preferred local spelling of Cornwall, i believe.

> It's alright I suppose, but where Cornwall falls short is that you only ever have to go a few hundred metres inland for things to become pretty drab.

well, i'd certainly agree its the coast that gives the highlights...
Jim C - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to bedspring:
> If its so ace,... Because its cold, damp, full of midges and Scots. Even the Scots do not want to live there look at the huge Scottish diaspora

A bit confused.

If Scotland is FULL of midgies and Scots ( The Scots which you liken to annoying insects)
How can no Scots want to live here, but Scotland still be full of them?
Post edited at 17:32
Jim C - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> The independent Nation of Cornwall, as recognised by the EU!!!
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-27132035

How did the EU recognise it, was there a Linde up of similar places, and the EU picked out Cornwall as the guilty one ;)
( Anyway Cornwall might be Unrecognised by the EU soon and their minority status could dissapear)
Jim C - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to toad:

> Many years ago I was at A Castle near Oban ( can't remember it's proper name) and just as we were leaving an American tour group turned up. One walking, breathing cliche in a tam o'shanter asked me what there was to see there. When I told him about the amazing sights you could see From the battlements, he turned to his companion, said "it's just another view" and they headed back to the bus.......

You should have just told him he could see America from the Battlements.
Dr.S at work - on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Jim C:

Ha!, if you want to see the often spotted Japanese tourist in full plumage, head to Kyoto, the throng around the famous sites is amazing.

But if more people had visited Japan it would be far higher up the rankings - everything from some decent alpine terrain to tropical islands, and simply beautiful cities - both the ancient and modern.
pasbury on 06 Sep 2017
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> ..., and simply beautiful cities - both the ancient and modern.

perhaps that's a crucial component, having a beautiful man made component of a country is not the norm.

Big Ger - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to Jim C:

> How did the EU recognise it, was there a Linde up of similar places, and the EU picked out Cornwall as the guilty one ;)

> ( Anyway Cornwall might be Unrecognised by the EU soon and their minority status could dissapear)

LOL!! Guilty of having a fully loaded pasty in a public place.

It wasn't actually the EU that recognised Cornwall, (my bad,) it was the "Council of Europe", a different bunch of meddling bureaucrats. ;-)
Big Ger - on 07 Sep 2017
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> Ha!, if you want to see the often spotted Japanese tourist in full plumage, head to Kyoto, the throng around the famous sites is amazing.


We get many here in Canberra, visiting Parliament. We were lucky in my daughter doing an exchange holiday with a school in Osaka, she went there for a fortnight, and we had two Japanese students (Saya and Yuriko,) to stay with us for a couple of weeks.

They are still very much in touch, and my daughter will be revisiting them next year for a month's holiday, and visa versa.

Toby S - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to rogerwebb:

> Because you can't eat scenery.

That scenery generates £7 Billion worth of tourist spend each year. That's a lot of money we can spend on fish suppers.
doz on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Scotlands shite - stay away everyone - don't believe a word of what VisitScotland say
1
Trangia on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:


> What would your vote for second place be...?

South Africa

Lovely varied climates, beautiful and varied scenery, stunning flora and fauna, and world class rock climbing.








seankenny - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to Trangia:

SA? I found the endemic violence and rape culture a bit off putting.
Robert Durran - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to seankenny:

> SA? I found the endemic violence and rape culture a bit off putting.

Try going across the border into Namibia - one of the safest feeling and most stunningly beautiful countries I've ever been to. And some fantastic climbing.
Trangia on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to seankenny:

> SA? I found the endemic violence and rape culture a bit off putting.

Isn't this thread about the beauty of counties rather than their politics and cultures?

Out of curiosity have you had direct experience of the violence and rape? I'm not denying it happens, but in general and away from the informal settlements the people are lovely. It's very sad.

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