UKC

Apologies if this has been raised before (I couldn't find anything relevant) but I'm wondering why it is so many people - and, it has to be said that from anecdotal observation I think this applies especially to female climbers - don't tighten the leg straps on their harnesses?

My understanding was that leg straps should be tight enough to provide added support for a fall, so that the load is not taken entirely around the waist (where damage to internal organs is a possibility, if the load taken is extreme). Distributing to the legs as well as the waist ought also to make a catch feel softer all around. Of course, over-tightening leg straps is a bad idea too (there should be *some* gap between straps and flesh). But I see so many climbers (especially women) climbing with leg loops that are as loose as the design will allow.

Is there a specific thought-out reason for this, or is it just that people don't like the feel of tight straps? I noticed that in Climbing.com's latest gear videos, even their gear editor - Jullie Ellison - is demonstrating techniques (inc. belaying) with her leg loops entirely loose. Does she (and everyone else) know something I don't?

In reply to LuapRagas:

leg loops are just there to stop you flipping around. if you're falling with such force that you risk internal organ damage, you're doing something wrong

In reply to LuapRagas:

Not all harnesses have adjustable leg loops?

In reply to La benya:

leg loops are just there to stop you flipping around. if you're falling with such force that you risk internal organ damage, you're doing something wrong

The leg loops are also there to distribute the load onto the pelvic girdle/hips and thus prevent all the force going directly onto the waist band.
Not sure how loose the leg loops are in the OP's example, but they certainly shouldn't be drooping around the thighs so as to have no effect at all in the event of a fall.

In reply to FactorXXX:




They used to be called "sit harnesses ". Useful for distributing the load in a fall but also abseiling and not strangling ( so quick) if stopping in mid air after a fall over an overhang.

The instructions should have some advice on how they fit.

In reply to La benya:


Complete nonsense. If you want to prove me right toprope something but only tie into your waistbelt. Lowering off will show you how much force is directed through the leg loops

In reply to La benya:

People used to die after falling off when they only tied in around the waist, when padded waist belts first appeared. I gather it was as much from the hanging around with the pressure focused on their waist too, but harness do spread the load away from being focused on the internal organs.

In reply to La benya:
I think you are a wee bit confused here. A well fitting harness distributes part of the load in a fall across the thighs and makes for a comfier and safer fall. Being old enough to remember climbing with the rope tied around my waist (and then having one of what I think was a Troll waist belt) the leg loops also stop the rope/belt riding up into your ribcage. Bit obvious really. I do see folk with incredibly loose leg loops occasionally and do wonder. If in doubt about the benefits of doing up leg loops tightly all you need to do is loosen the loops on an adjustable harness then hang in the rope and move about. Straight away it is unstable and, in light of Mina's accident described elsewhere about the need for a well fitting waist belt on your harness you have to wonder as it could have the same effect though to a lesser extend. Though I'm sure some folk don't realise the need or benefit of doing them up a couple of the examples I've seen recently appear to be making an "I'm cool" statement.

In reply to Timmd:

The waist belt would ride up to under the ribs, constricting the diaphragm and causing asphixiation. This was particularly likely if the climber was hanging free under an overhang and / or unconscious.

In reply to LuapRagas:

I don't have any first hand experience but I've seen plenty of videos of fall arrest harnesses used in the construction industry that didn't have the leg loops tightened up (not major tight, should be able to get a couple of fingers between the harness and skin). When a big fall is taken on them there is a tendency for the harness to ride up into the groin and almost deglove the...gentlemans area.

In reply to paddymct:

Having had first hand experience in demonstrating a fall arrest harness for the construction industry, I can confirm that the harness will ride up into the groin and almost deglove the gentlemans area! (leg loops were not adjustable) but that was 20+ years ago.

In reply to Ffat Boi:

And for that reason I always make sure my leg loops are tight enough that they wont move...

In reply to Neil Morrison:

I actually intentionally tested how well fitting my waistband was recently by hanging upside down with my feet around the rope spiderman style, not for the faint hearted but it boosted my confidence in my harness and tie in

In reply to LuapRagas:

The rule of thumb that I teach when folk get into a harness for the first time is that you should be able to fit a couple of fingers snuggly between the leg loop and your leg. If you have it too tight then it can and will restrict your movement as you progress.

The Legs loops are certainly classed as Load bearing parts of the sit harness (BS EN 813 - Section 4.2.3 ...yawn...) Technically not the whole part of the leg loop, just the back half (well, 150deg if you are being accurate).

One of the things that I see more often is leg loops hanging down at the back of the knees as folk havn't tightend the elastic straps or they've come undone. While these straps are not load bearing they do help position the load bearing section of the harness in the correct position to dissipate the weight between your waist and leg loops. Plus you break Rule One with leg loops at the back of your knees.

In reply to La benya:


Back in the day there was a thing called a Swami Belt. Just a wide webbing belt that was held on by either the climbing rope knot or a short length of knotted tape.

It felt comfy until you weighted it. Even a tight rope seconding would see it start to rise and constrict your stomach, your breathing and it would dig into your lower ribs.

I never took a lead fall on one and certainly wouldn't have wanted to.

The first proper two piece harness, ignoring the one piece Whillans, was probably the Troll Mark Five and was a complete game changer for leading and probably helped push grades as much as any other piece of climbing equipment as leaders could finally fall off in a previously unobtainable level of safety and comfort.

Todays harnesses are basically exactly the same design with softer, lighter and more comfortable fabrics.

Leg loops are a vital part of any sit harness. As a previous poster has suggested go and try lowering off a route on just a belt.

In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:



The Troll Mk5 was the first comfortable harness for most British climbers but was not especially innovative.

Bill Forrest designed and manufactured the first belt + leg loops climbing harness in 1968, predating the Whillans. The Black Belt, based on the Forrest, was sold by Wild Country in the late 70s. Nearly all modern designs are based on Forrest's ideas with the significant addition of the belay loop. This was developed by Brian Robertson (Boulder, early 70s) and Troll (Oldham, early 80s), probably independently of each other.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP24/tool-users-the-first-modern-climbing-harn...
https://www.climbing.com/gear/the-history-of-climbing-harnesses/

In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:



.
.
.



Anyone whose forgotten to tie into the leg loops of their harness will tell you how effin uncomfortable the lower-off is.

In reply to LuapRagas:

Because I've got fat thighs.

In reply to Si_G:

But we aren't talking about no leg loops at all. A loose leg loop for a belayer will slide up when a force is applied and turn into a crotch-and-buttock loop. This may be very bad for an inverting fall, but for a woman belaying I'm not sure it is any more uncomfortable, which is I guess why people get lazy.

In reply to LuapRagas:

Because you get sweaty thighs when they're done up properly. I'll often loosen mine when belaying for this reason.

In reply to LuapRagas:
It's not the tightness of the leg loops around the leg that is necessarily the most serious issue. Adjustable leg loops or not there is no excuse for having them draping round your knees. It suggests to me a sloppy attitude.

Al

In reply to paddymct:


Does this cost more?

In reply to La benya:


Thanks, thread. I also thought this was the case but it sounds like I was dangerously ignorant.