/ I have caught the trad bug

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Shane jones - on 08 Sep 2017
After trad climbing in Wales and Cornwall, I have caught the trad bug but need to start building up my gear. I'm looking for suggestions for a start trad rack. The first one I've come across is this.
http://www.upandunder.co.uk/Outdoor/Climbing/Nuts-and-Stoppers/P---Trad-Pack---15511/

Any other pack like this that people can recommend?

Thanks
Shane
Wayne S - on 08 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:
Hi,

The list you linked is certainly a good starting point and would be ok for short climbs on rock types which don't need a cam bias (i.e. not gritstone). It is hard to be specific as a rack is not necessarily the gear you own, but what you think you will need an a particular route. Add a couple more Quickdraws to that starter list then you would have enough for most lower grade mountain routes (assuming your partner carries a sling or two and a couple of screwgates on multipitch). For gritstone add a good few cams. Longer routes and limestone tend to be heavier on nuts, and two sets is often useful. Add a couple of quickdraws and say a size a 0.75 and 2 (in black diamond sizing) cams and you would have a bare bones all round rack. I would want a bit more personality, but start steady and add to what you have as you get a better idea of rock/ route choices.

PS it's great you have found a pre made bundle but I would still shop around and look at making up the list perhaps.
Post edited at 20:58
elsewhere on 08 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=840

Buying A Rack Of Climbing Gear
by Alan James and Adrian Berry Feb/2008
This article has been read 72,292 times
The following article was first published on UKC in 2008 and has been revamped for 2011. It is based on text from the book Trad CLIMBING + published by Rockfax. This article version was written by Adrian Berry and Alan James.
slab_happy on 08 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

I personally wouldn't go with a "readymade" rack like that, because it's inevitably going to have some things which aren't what you'd have picked yourself.

There's a lot of stuff which comes down to individual preference (whether you prefer Wallnuts or Rocks or something else, whether you like your cams with or without thumb-loops, whether you think hexes are indispensible or obnoxious cowbells, etc. etc.).

As a trad newbie you want to spend as much time as you can climbing with people who have more experience than you, so you may have the option of using your partners' racks for a bit and finding out which kinds of gear you prefer, before you have to start pulling your own weight and buying your own. *g*

Needlesports has a pretty good rundown of what you might want to have, as a rough "shopping list":

http://www.needlesports.com/content/basic-rock-climbing-advice.aspx
http://www.needlesports.com/content/advanced-rock-climbing-advice.aspx

The most useful thing I found when putting together a rack was keeping an eye on V12's DMM cosmetic seconds: https://www.v12outdoor.com/dmm-cosmetic-seconds.html
Shane jones - on 08 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

Ok thanks for the reply I'll take a look around to see what other people can offer
Shane jones - on 08 Sep 2017
In reply to slab_happy:

Yeah that is something to think about. I do like the BD cams with the thumb loop, but I prefer the extendable slogs on the DMM cams.
olddirtydoggy - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

You'll get preferences siding with every brand available on here. I've climbed with mates using all the big brands but so far I've always prefered the DMM protection. I didn't like the spectre wiregates though, found them fiddly to get the gear off them. There will be members on here telling me I'm wrong. I use mini screwgates mixed with a large screwgate for belay building as they are lighter. Depending on what kind of climbing you are looking at, I would get a belay device with a guide mode on it (pivot/reverso etc)
Wayne S - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

As a couple of folk have touched on, everyone has certain preferences in what brands they like in what commodity. I love just about everything DMM make except for their cams for instance. The circumstances we put together a rack all differ and it's hard to agree on what a basic rack is. I love my rack and have refined it over the years on a cost is no issue basis. But that's on a backdrop of I have been climbing often and frequently enough to know that the cost vs return calculation is easy. The drivers may be different for a first rack.

Some truths: You can carry too little gear and impact safety, you can carry too much gear and impact chances of success. You can carry too much of the wrong type of gear. It all varies around rock type, length and route features.

That said places like Plas Y Brenin have a base rack, so it's not beyond the wit of man to make a reasonable stab at it. Some will give advice from refraining from buying cams early on. On some rock types that approach will either be scary or dangerous or both. The take away is that time spent learning how to milk every opportunity out of passive protection is time well spent. Its also easy to see cams as plug and play, and this is not really the case especially on low friction rock types.

So at the risk of getting shot down in flames this is my suggestion for a base rack, assuming you have all the personal stuff like harness, helmet, belay device and nut key (Other options or available):

Quickdraws
6 off 17 cm, 2 off 25 cm, 2 off sling draw made up from 60 cm slings ( Avoid shorter Quickdraws for all round climbing)

Nuts (My list so DMM Wallnuts)
1-11 ( 1 set)
2,3,4,5,6 (part set)
Racking crabs for above

Torque nuts (Again my list so DMM)
Size 2,3
Racking crab/crabs for above

Cams (If I had only one choice, I would go Black Diamond Camalots in these sizes based on ease of use and robustness)
Sizes 0.5, 1 and 2 (this is bare bones remember and 0.75 fills a gap, and for gritstone just go 0.3 to No3/4 with one set of nuts)
Racking crabs for above

Slings
3x120cm each with a lightweight screw gate each. (People seem to love carrying way too many screwgates, you can always back to back wiregates)
1 larger screwgate.

That's probably the bare bones for an all round rack in my book. Long sections of wider cracks would be scary with that rack, but you can avoid those routes generally for now. Gritstone can be cam intensive and even doubles can be useful in the mid range sometimes. The point being that the list above is 85% plus of what you might need and tweak over time. Personally I don't carry Hexs, but have nuts up to 14 and a full range of cams to choose from. But that's how I have tweaked to my taste, what I have listed is a desert island rack if you will. If you have the money simply expand the cam range.

Hope that helps.

Wayne


slab_happy on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:
Oh, another thing I found indispensable -- this cam size comparison chart:

https://rockrun.com/blogs/the-flash-rock-run-blog/cam-size-comparison-chart

Cams of different makes have completely different numbering systems, so this is helpful when someone says you need such-and-such sizes and you're trying to work out what they mean.

Many people seem to think in Wild Country Friends numbering (which I think has stayed the same as the WC Heliums).

And I forgot to say -- congratulations on catching the trad bug! *g*
Post edited at 10:25
Wayne S - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to slab_happy:

Good call! Maybe just worth adding that you will typically get better advice from independent retailers.

Needlesports
Joe Brown
V12
Outside

all have great shops and good on line browse potential

Rock and Run
Banana Fingers

Have a good UK Online presence

Reasonable prices and a good selection from our Euro buddies at Alpinetrek (Bergfrunde) do ok.

There are many more and as soon as the discount vouchers arrive I will gladly list!
cas smerdon - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to slab_happy:
Second for seeing what you use and like when climbing on other people's racks. Build up your rack don't get a bundle including stuff you don't want.
Don't buy short quick draws, they are only suitable for sport. Use some 60cm slings to make some extendable quick draws.
Only get 120cm slings to use as slings you can always double them.
Look at your leaders' gear placing when seconding and see what you use when leading. Build up rack gradually.
paul__in_sheffield - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

Hi Shane, not sure what grade you're climbing at, but the bulk of lower grade climbing, even on grit was put up with and safely climbed on for decades with passive protection.
It's worth bearing in mind that if you shop around you can pick up a complete set of nuts for the price of a cam. The nuances between different manufacturers' kit is generally irrelevant. Buy last year's model. 2015 DMM Dragons are substantially cheaper than 2017 items (I've still got 1980 rigid stem Friends and rocks which are great).
The real trick is to climb as much as you can with a bunch of people who climb harder than you. Serve a grit apprenticeship if you can, and learn about placements you trust. Have a good time, I wish I was starting out again. ;-)
slab_happy on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

Yeah, I think I've bought from all of the shops you've listed at various points, and have had good experiences with all of them!

V12 have the DMM cosmetic seconds. Needlesports have useful advice articles and do things like selling pre-cut cord in lengths suitable for prussik loops. Bananafingers are super-speedy and great with returns. Joe Brown do good bundle deals on sets of cams.

(And Outside regularly put up with me loitering for ages ogling the tricams while I'm waiting for the bus in Hathersage ...)
paul__in_sheffield - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

Alpinetrek(bergreunde) were my only source until brexit killed the exchange rate.
Picking up Sportiva Testarossas for 70quid was a joy.
Off the OP, I'm guessing this will be helping the turnover of UK outlets. Rock and Run seem to be taking most of my business at the moment, but I'd flag up SportPursuit for its flash sales. The current Arcteryx sale prices actually look sensible!
Wayne S - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

I try and share the love where I can, I have been shopping with most for nearly 20 years, and it would be sad day if any one disappeared. The recent announcement in regard to a commercial tie up just galvanised my resolve to keep independent.
John Clinch (Ampthill) - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

I'll add a couple of personal thoughts on this

Who are you climbing with? If it's newbies and mates you need a full rack. But if its other climbers ca you get buy with half a rack?

Are you on limited budget for the long term or will you over time be able to bring more money to this

If money is genuinely short then I'd rather have enough cheap stuff rather than not enough posh stuff. For example Decathlon will do you 5 quick draws for £30. 10 unadonised rocks from Rock and Run £45. Hexes I would buy used or putting out a begging post some one might let you have them for postage. Put new rope on them when you get them. Rock and Run also do a 5 pack of 60 cm slings for £21 and a 120cm sling for £5

I might even cheap out on the quick draws to get a few cams.

However if you think over the long term you'll have more to spend then aim a bit higher on the quick draws. I find DMM spectres about the right price point for me

Don't go to cheap on the rope. My son bought some ultra budget thing from GoOutdoors (might have been a Beal Karma). My 50 mammut Galaxy was better value in that although it cost more it has lasted way longer. Great value at £65 from Go outdoors

PS these are just few ideas. I'm far from the last word on sourcing budget gear


TobyA on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:
That starter kit looks perfectly good and would get you going. You might do better looking second hand*, or getting bit by bit from different shops when super sales come up, but ultimately you know if the hassle and time is worth it, or whether you'd prefer to just buy something like that and get outside and start using it ASAP.

Whatever you do, don't get fixated on minutiae - I think some people on this thread above are doing that, although clearly with good intentions. It doesn't really matter what make of nuts you get as long as you have at least ten of them and practice placing them. Really who cares what cams you get as your first ones - you will get used to using whatever you have, it's really not brain surgery. Someone even mentioned length of quickdraws - I think blanket statements like "short quickdraws are only any good for sport climbs" are a bit silly. Half of my rack of trad quickdraws are 10 cm slings and I've survived so far! If you see a great deal on a bunch of shorter quickdraws (i.e. Decathlon) get them. Believe me having five short quickdraws is a lot better than having one long one!

*Just a thought on second hand. I recently sold my old rack through Outdoor Gear Exchange on Facebook - I was amazed how incredibly quickly it sold, literally within minutes I had a three messages saying they would take it and numerous more saying if I would split they would buy the cams or the nuts or something. I guess I could have tried charging more, but actually I thought what I did charge was fair and I had factored in the cost to (and encouraged the buyer to) resling the hexes and cams on dyneema cord. So you might be lucky looking second hand, but its seems very competitive! I've seen people on ebay and on Facebook paying not much less than new prices for gear that I know had to be at least 15-20 years old. If you not an expert, buying new in a pack like in your link isn't such a bad idea I reckon.
Post edited at 12:50
Greasy Prusiks on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

Dicks Climbing does some good starter packs.
TobyA on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

> Dicks Climbing does some good starter packs.

I really feel that shop's name needs the correct apostrophe and perhaps even quotation marks around it to not sound like something completely different... :-/
Wayne S - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to TobyA:
I'm going to disagree with you for once Toby, the op put forward a good question and most responses have been that the link is a good offer albeit shy of a couple of draws and maybe a cam or two. Also most advice has been pretty sound and where a personal preference expressed it has been declared. There are some pitfalls, and I think the availability bias towards shorter Quickdraws is one of these. It is my view that 10cm Quickdraws have no place in Trad climbing, yes you will get away with it, and maybe only some bits will lift out. Is buying some crap 10cm Quickdraws from decathlon really your best advice? Equally there is a huge element of "buyer beware" when it comes to buying second hand gear. Again, does this sit well as advice for someone finding their feet in Trad climbing?

In the space of a few posts the Op has the names of some of the best climbing shops in England and Wales, lots of ideas for a starter rack, and links to some good articles, pretty damn good for UKC.

If minutiae helps new starters avoid ending up with 10 cm quickdraws and 8 screwgates on day one then it's all good with me.
Post edited at 13:42
slab_happy on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

Based on your past posts, it sounds as if you might already have some 18cm quickdraws and possibly some racking carabiners?

Buying a bundle is less of a saving if it means duplicating stuff you already have (and might not need to double up on).
John Clinch (Ampthill) - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

Is buying some crap 10cm Quickdraws from decathlon really your best advice?

My point was if you've only got £250 for a rack then I'd rather have enough cheap quick draws then not enough posh one. Do you disagree?

slab_happy on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to TobyA:

> Whatever you do, don't get fixated on minutiae - I think some people on this thread above are doing that, although clearly with good intentions.

I think it all depends on the OP's context and needs. If the goal is "get an okay starter rack of passive gear immediately without having to pay too much or think about it", the UpandUnder pack will work fine, definitely.

On the other hand, maybe he'd rather pick out gear he personally prefers. Or not buy hexes and put the money towards some cams instead. Or maybe he's on a very tight budget and needs to pare things down to the cheapest possible. Or maybe he likes contemplating the shiny toys (as so many of us do).
Wayne S - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

I don't disagree, but it's shades of grey. You can buy 17cm DMM Spectre Quickdraws for very little more than the cheap decathlon sport draws, personally I would skip the odd treat for a couple of weeks to end up with something I was happy with. But in the same vein your suggestion is to spend a bit more on a rope, I would agree with this. At no point has the OP stated he is on a budget, so in my mind why offer cheap over suitable?
John Clinch (Ampthill) - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

Fair point on the cheap. I sort of assumed it was on a budget from the discount trad pack link

We actually agree that Dmm spectre is the actual way to go. I think we got 5 for £50

I came back onto say in my imaginary budget world the cheap quick draws could be stripped to provide carabiners for slings and hexs etc.


To the OP if your not on a budget I'd skip straight to cams
TobyA on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

I actually said "If you see a great deal on a bunch of shorter quickdraws (i.e. Decathlon) get them. Believe me having five short quickdraws is a lot better than having one long one!", not go and buy Decathlon short quickdraws.

Currently of the ten QDs I normally carry trad climbing, I think 6 are on 10 cm extenders. For a long time it was 4 but when I was starting to think all my extenders were 7 or 8 years old and very well used, a mate kindly got me a load of short extenders from his work, so I'm using them currently. I probably climb an equal amount on single and double ropes and can't remember the last time a piece of gear lifted out. Of course it happens occasionally and I carry a few sling draws for when you really can't find much gear and will need to rely on something far out of the rope line - but nevertheless I still reckon if you have a limited amount of money having a bunch of short draws is better than just a couple of long ones. Best of all is having a bunch of short ones AND a few of long ones!
TobyA on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to slab_happy:

Agreed, which is why I said "...but ultimately you know if the hassle and time (of buying stuff bit by bit or second hand) is worth it, or whether you'd prefer to just buy something like (the starter rack) and get outside and start using it ASAP."
Wayne S - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Let's be honest the whole rack debate was always going to be contentious. I did actually put a fair bit of thought into my list, which isn't my actual rack, but is perhaps a minimum of what I would buy now if starting out.

Wayne S - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to TobyA:
I guess I am just being careful of the message being sent. Let's be honest we all have that box with a figure of eight in it! If only we had the option to ask back then, maybe we might have avoided some of the poorer gear purchase choices.

My point being having 17cm + Quickdraws work on grit and wandering mountain routes. The only reservation is where the first runner is close to the ground, but in these instances a screwgate direct on the first piece is the fix. 10 cm draws are an absolute pain on long wondering routes, yes on most grit routes it's a non issue, but as an all round option, longer is better.
Post edited at 14:56
GridNorth - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:
I would be interested to know, from those who use them, what benefits there are to carrying 10cm QD's as opposed to 18cm QD's. IMO it's not just the short length that is problematical, it's the fact that the area that is used for the stitching also makes them less supple.

Al
Post edited at 15:22
TobyA on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

You fall 8 cms less far, obvs. Lots of grit routes that's the difference between decking or not. ;-)
Rick Graham on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to TobyA:

Ignoring rope stretch factors more like 16 cm

Like Grid I use more longer drawers to help with rope drag and not lifting the runner out.
If the runner is good and groundfall possible, a "Kendal clip" , just a screwgate is also an option, possibly 40cm less fall.

Back to the OP, a set of nuts and hexes, either DMM or Wild Country, a few slings, screwgates and quickdraws.
Sounds a bit like the original starter pack and good for most areas of the UK. In fact I have often taken less on some 1000m + alpine rock routes.( but often carry more at Stanage or Shepherds )

Shane jones - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

Hi Paul

Sport I'm climbing at around 5.
Trad I have lead hvd and seconded S

Cams wide I do prefer the BD because of the thin loop but I like the extendable sling on the DMMs
Shane jones - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to slab_happy:

I'm not on a strict budget, I would prefer to get good kit that will last. I do love a good deal though ????
Shane jones - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

I'll be climbing with my girlfriend so we can split the cost. I would prefer to spend a little more on the right kit rather than spending less on more kit that might not be what I need or that is not right.
Shane jones - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

Thanks for all the detailed info I'll have to shop around and see what deals there are and build up from there. I have a mammut 10.1 galaxy 60 rope would this be ok to use for trad?
machine on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

That looks petty good as a starter pack. I would just double check that you cant buy these separately cheaper first. You will also want cams and probably 3 more quickdraws.
machine on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Quick draws..................they all conform to the same standard.
Wayne S - on 09 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

10.1 mm is a good all round rope to get started, and I believe the Galaxy is very hard wearing. It was my first rope. A single rope is the most intuitive system to get started, though having half ropes does have some benefits when routes weave around a bit.

One thing with a single rope is that it increases the need to extend runners well if you want to avoid rope drag.

Lots of good advice on options for a first rack, though having the gear is only part of the picture. Make sure you are comfortable placing good runners and get advice if unsure.

It was mentioned above, but climbing with someone more experienced and who already has a rack is a great way to learn rapidly, without too much of an outlay.

For my part you are very welcome. UKC can be a great resource, use it. Though it's always worth being clear about experience etc, to get the best responses.
John Clinch (Ampthill) - on 10 Sep 2017


> Lots of good advice on options for a first rack, though having the gear is only part of the picture. Make sure you are comfortable placing good runners and get advice if unsure.

Absolutly. In fact I'd say that if you don't have an experienced friend to evaluate your placements find some one who can. Perhaps respond to one of those aspirant MIA requests on here or if necessary pay some one for a days instruction

HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:
> Avoid shorter Quickdraws for all round climbing

Or perhaps get better at climbing strategy.

Like Toby mentiones earlier, majority of the QDs I use are of the normal 10cm kind. Sure, I have 2 to 4 17cm QDs and also 2 alpine-draws (60cm slings tripled as draws). But the vast majority of draws I use are of the short kind. This holds true for short granite crags, long mountain routes, ice and mixed and even alpine rock. Oh, and I generally climb with a single rope (less faff), but naturally will use halfs when they have their purpose.

Yet, I only have had a few pieces lift out due to a draw & rope-drag issue (in the last odd 20 years or so... so once per decade).

In fact, I find that I use longer draws more when I'm clippin' bolts (roofs, overhangs and aretas) for a better rope line.
Rick Graham on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:

> Or perhaps get better at climbing strategy.

> Like Toby mentiones earlier, majority of the QDs I use are of the normal 10cm kind. Sure, I have 2 to 4 17cm QDs and also 2 alpine-draws (60cm slings tripled as draws). But the vast majority of draws I use are of the short kind. This holds true for short granite crags, long mountain routes, ice and mixed and even alpine rock. Oh, and I generally climb with a single rope (less faff), but naturally will use halfs when they have their purpose.

> Yet, I only have had a few pieces lift out due to a draw & rope-drag issue (in the last odd 20 years or so... so once per decade).

> In fact, I find that I use longer draws more when I'm clippin' bolts (roofs, overhangs and aretas) for a better rope line.

"Yet, I only have had a few pieces lift out due to a draw & rope-drag issue (in the last odd 20 years or so... so once per decade). "

Depends on the rock type and rock architecture.
Try using short drawers over here on a runout with only shallow flared placements between you and a broken leg or more
Kevster - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

I'm a long draw and sling draw fan for trad.
I don't think when starting out the difference in draw length will be the difference between decking or not on its own, but it will make a difference to gear staying in, and will be more forgiving to inexperienced belayers and gear unzipping. Which will make the real difference.

Education here may be more valuable though. If the op understands the implications/ reality of my paragraph above, this will be far more valuable than just taking a recommendation on draw length.

My starter rack was made from bits n bobs of crag swag, mates 2nds, a few deals and my first 2 cams were free with annual subscriptions to a climbing mag.
It's nice having the best kit first off, but does I really matter when lacing up a Diff compared to running out a poorly protected e2? Decathlon stuff is ok, it just isn't the "best".
Good luck op. Trad is a great adventure. Don't forget Prusiks!
Shane jones - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

I have done a weeks course in total in Wales and cornwall. Over the last 10days I'll have to see if a can find an MIA trainee that would be willing to take us out
slab_happy on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

Also you can start seeing if there are clubs near you and/or searching for partners on UKC. There are genuinely people out there who are happy to mentor newbies in their trad apprenticeship, especially if you're willing to pay in beer and/or cake.

Even if you've got the basics from the course and aren't looking to be "taught" as such, it's invaluable to get in the climbing time with people who've got more experience than you, who can give you tips and spot when you're making silly/lethal mistakes.
Wayne S - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:

My grandmother smoked and drank heavily but lived until she was 100. Should I advocate smoking for a long life?
Good for you that you get by with short draws on Trad, best practice is to extend runners well.
goose299 - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

I messaged you re a trad rack for sale. check your emails
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Try using short drawers over here on a runout with only shallow flared placements between you and a broken leg or more

Grit?

Only had short qds with me, and a few slings. No problems on that regard.

And the stuff I've climbed has been on granite, limestone, grit, and cogloremete. So of the major rock types I'm only missing sandstone (for trad action, that is).
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

> ... best practice is to extend runners well.

True, the ones that need extending. But certainly majority of placements don't require it (even with a single rope). So gettin' better at placing gear and also reading the routes are What is needed. Even on grit.
GridNorth - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:

If you are not extending when using a single rope you must be climbing extraordinarily straight lines On most Welsh and Lakes rock both are impractical, if not impossible, most of the time.

Al
Wayne S - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:

You seem very authoritative, what exactly are the elements of gear placement and route reading I need to improve in order that I do not need to extend runners?
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:


Place less and always think of the rope line (or lines).
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

Not really, especially on limestone that has not been the case. Still I manage just fine.

The limestone has been mainly multipitch, so I've been climbing at grades where placing gear every meter is not necessary. And that was also the case when I climbed on grit.
Wayne S - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:

So are we avoiding crucial runners if they don't follow a straight line? I only place gear enough to protect the route, placing less would artificially increase the danger, why would I do that?

Surely it would be easier not to carry poxy little sports draws and simply extend the runners correctly as per every piece of expert advice?
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

> So are we avoiding crucial runners if they don't follow a straight line? I only place gear enough to protect the route, placing less would artificially increase the danger, why would I do that?

Depending on your experience some to most of the crucial runners are not actually needed to protect safely the route. Which is what I also wrote earlier. Perseption and fact are two different things. Most will err on the side of perseption of safety, and nothing wrong with that.

And as said, smart use of pro and you can protect safely all but the most zig zagging lines on a single rope. And with half ropes, even that is not a problem.

If I were to follow the mantra of extending every placement, How much is needed? 35cm, 60cm, 240cm? By you logic 240 is the best one, no?

Wayne S - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:
So you appear to be suggesting that I am somehow scared on every route I climb and that I am incapable of climbing a route without stitching it up with needless runners? I am pretty sure that is your point. What I am sure of is you do not know me, or have any idea what my level of experience is.

Please look up crucial in a dictionary, something can't be a bit crucial.

Wouldn't it be more seemly to actually admit that you are now talking utter nonsense?

PS the word is perception, again a dictionary is useful here.
Post edited at 18:23
Rick Graham on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

Keep it up, we all enjoy a personalised spat

However, having a good selection of nuts, cams, slings .....and .... a variety of quickdraw lengths gives a leader the option of protecting any pitch to an optimum degree.
Wayne S - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

Wise words.......
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

> So you appear to be suggesting that I am somehow scared on every route I climb and that I am incapable of climbing a route without stitching it up with needless runners? I am pretty sure that is your point. What I am sure of is you do not know me, or have any idea what my level of experience is.

Neither do you know mine.

Mutta tasapuolisuuden vuoksi jatketaan keskustelua suomeksi. Sanakirja auttaa tosiaan tässäkin.

Ja kuten kirjoitin, niin se mitä useimmat olettavan olevan välttämätön varmistus turvallisuuden kannalta, ovat usein väärässä. Ja kun kyseessä on oikeasti ne turvallisuuden kannalta välttämättömät varmistukset, no järkevällä jatkojen käytöllä kaikkien tai edes valtaosan ei todellakaan tarvitse olla normaali jatkoa pidempiä. Joten kuten aiemmin kirjoitin, niin muutama alppi-jatko ja muutama hiukan pidempi jatko riittää pitkälläkin linjalle.

Your welcome ;).
Rick Graham on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:

> Neither do you know my.

> But for the sake of fairness, the debate continues in Finnish. The dictionary really does help here too.

> And as I wrote, what most people suppose to be necessary for security is often wrong. And in the case of really the safety-related assurances, no rational use of the continuos means that all or even most of them do not really need to be longer than normal. So, as I wrote earlier, a few alpine sequences and a few more extended sequels are enough for the long line.

> Your welcome;).

I think Eric Cantona helps Google Translate now.
Wayne S - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:

The point of the thread is to suggest a good all round starter rack for someone looking to start trad climbing in the UK. Whilst I appreciate you carry a small number of longer draws ( yes I could be bothered to translate from Finnish) the suggestion to get mid length 17+cm as the main quantity and a couple of 25 cm and some alpine draws is sound. If you chose to use short 10cm draws, good for you. My whole purpose of posting was to help someone starting out. I am unsure of your reason for posting, seemingly to ally with Toby, and seeming to see if you could piss higher up the wall then me. Non of which I am particularly interested in. Whatever you choose to use, suggesting 10cm sport length draws as the bulk of someone's trad rack is wrong.

I may have been wrong to pick up on your use of English in hindsight when I needed google translation to continue my rant. For that I apologise.
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Rick Graham:

Yup. Not se easy nor absolutely correct, but you can still (sort of) quess what it means.
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:

> Whatever you choose to use, suggesting 10cm sport length draws as the bulk of someone's trad rack is wrong.

No it isn't (even for limestone with fiddly nuts or grit). But that isn't to say that *only* short QDs. Which is my exact point. Even for long (50m +) and wondering pitches short draws with a few longer ones and alpine draws should suffice.

Oddly enough you're starting to remind me of this pic:
https://community.dur.ac.uk/mountaineering.club/Joomla/images/stories/cartoon3.jpg

Nothing wrong with that, but around 30 of them slings are dead weight for majority of the time. As is a lot of other stuff listed there.
Wayne S - on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to HeMa:
My suggestion was 10 quickdaws, 6 off 17cm 2 off 25 cm and 2 slingdraws. Not sure how this is different to any other suggestions on here.

Not entirely sure that warrents a link to a trad dinosaur.

Point is you are still wrong, and to my mind a considerable prat.
HeMa on 10 Sep 2017
In reply to Wayne S:
>... and to my mind a considerable prat.


Hugs and kisses.


https://pics.me.me/im-not-an-asshole-im-a-hemorrhoid-iirritate-assholes-6106841.png

Shane jones - on 12 Sep 2017


Thanks for all the help and advice. I have bought my 1st addition to my trad rack, DMM NUT SET 3 which I got for £123 instead of £144+ And a DMM nut buster key £8. Next I think will be draws, racking carabiners and slings. What size slings and how many do people recommend?
HeMa on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

> What size slings and how many do people recommend?

Depends on whom you ask. The answer will range from a few 60cm ones to about a billion. Plus naturally longer ones.

Like I wrote above, I generally just use short QuickDraws, one or two ~semi long quickdraws and a few 60cm slings. Might also carry a few longer slings (120 or 180) for slinging a block/tree or building a belay.

Some will perhaps advice to never use shorter than 60cm slings for pro. Nothing wrong with that, but it can be fiddly, bulky, and mostly unnecessary.

John Clinch (Ampthill) - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

It does depend on a lot of things but I think our rack has

1 x 240 cm for building belays. You don't need this but they are really handy for building belays if you are going to not swing leads. In which case you might want 2. But I'd say start with 0

2x120cm for slings for threads, big flakes and building belays. I'd start with 1

5x60cm slings. These can be used on flakes, small threads and as long extenders. I think we have 5 certainly 3 or 4. Actually we would rack 2 of these as sling draws. I actually used them all on a not that long pitch this summmer. I'd start with 3
Shane jones - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Do people tend to go for 8mm for extendable draws and 11mm for building your belay? I can't remember what sizes we used on the courses
ogreville on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

Agreed with most above on the extendable quick draws.
Cheapest way is to get a pack of 5 like this -
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/mammut-crag-indicator-wire-5pk-10cm-p336776
Then strip them of their biners and put them together with a bunch of longer dyneema slings (dmm 8mm by 60mm are good) and make up 5 alpine draws. Best money you can spend. Weight difference shouldn't matter when starting out and they'll be invaluable - Short when you need them short and long when required. Works out cheap and you can always vary them with the shorter pre-supplied dog bones as needed.

No need for cams yet. Good set of nuts (WC Rocks or DMM Wallnuts) and x2 larger size hexes like the Torque nut or Rockcentric 2&3 (red and yellow) will get you up almost anything.
John Clinch (Ampthill) - on 13 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

11mm stiff nylon is horrible to not so not great for belays

Not sure what our long sling is but it seems quite thin and supple
routrax - on 13 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:
Didn't notice anyone mention the DMM protection pack, wallnuts, offsets and torque nuts (Hexes).

If you're climbing up to severe, I'd imagine that should be enough for most routes unless they need specifically small or large gear.
Tricams are also great alternatives to cams in many placements, cheap too.

Obviously you'd need quickdraws and a rope too. I'd go for a 10mm 60m if I only had one rope.
Post edited at 22:00
Shane jones - on 14 Sep 2017
In reply to routrax:
Thanks. That's the pack that I bought the other day saved myself about £30 on it. I have already got a mammut galaxy 10.1 60 meter rope that I use for sport. So I'll just use that for now.

slab_happy on 14 Sep 2017
In reply to Shane jones:

> Do people tend to go for 8mm for extendable draws

Yes, skinny Dyneema works well for that -- the Mammut Contact slings are good, for example. Just remember that they do wear quickly, so you want to keep track of when you bought them and when you might want to replace them.

Handy guide to how to triple them to rack them:

https://www.climbing.com/skills/the-alpine-quickdraw/

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