/ Orthotics for pronator

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im off - on 11 Sep 2017
Bit of advice.
Looking for some off the shelf orthotic insoles to try for running. I get some pain up insides of ankles when go over 10mile. Can't afford podiatrist fees.
Been told to avoid spongy soft ones.
Thanks
SouthernSteve on 11 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:

Superfeet? There is a, possibly increasing, view that orthotics should be used remedially rather than all the time. You might want to consider calf and particularly tibialis posterior exercises as well as practicing the short foot exercise. A sports physio assessment would be a great idea to direct these

Steve
im off - on 11 Sep 2017
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Cheers Steve. Yes I've been told orthotics can make things worse. Ive never seen short foot exercise b4. Googled it now. Obvious really. Seen a physio for other ankle issues. I'll see what short foot exercising does for me. Seen a podiatrist but cost of orthotics was alot.
Thanks
Dan Arkle - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:

I have a spare pair of hard 3/4 orthortic insoles for pronation.
Yours for free if you think they'll help. I think they are more general purpose than running specific.

I've done a lot of modifying running shoes by cutting up old insoles and slipping/gluing them under the originals. It's worked fairly well for pronation and arch support, and is infinitely adjustable.
Ferret on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:
Appreciate cash may be tight and trial and error might work you might also get it wrong or take a long time (and a few sets at multiple costs) to get the ones that are actually the correct 'prescription' for you.

Sure, if a not particularly active person is told they over pronate, anything will probably help them (hence, rough and ready off the shelf) but assuming you are active and doing a lot of sport/running/mountaineering, your mileage and needs are probably a lot greater and off the shelf may not be the best.

I over pronate - was told by podiatrist that a very high percentage of people over or under, but that most are not aware of it as they are so sedentary - up the mileage and up the issues...

For what it's worth, on a long term basis - I go for a check every 2 to 4 years at about £40 a time. The carbon fibre orthotics cost I think £120ish first time round (a lot) and then if my 'prescription' changes or the orthotics wear too much it's about £40 to refurb them to current needs. Over about 15 years of use I've re-furbed/changed 3 times I think and somewhere along the line went from having one set to having a second so that when prescription changes I send oldest set into alter and keep newer set to keep me ticking over until refurbished ones arrive. The carbon fibre itself is lifetime guarantee, its just the pads that customise them fully to your foot shape and required prescription that wear and may need refurbished.

Have gone from ankle and knee pain to running 2,000 miles per year no issues and I can cheerfully shop over a wide range of neutral shoes. I found shoes to correct over pronation were rarer and the padding wore out very quickly so my mileage per set of trainers is a lot higher now with insoles in than it used to be, buying over pronation shoes and them wearing out pretty quickly. I use 3/4 length which are very easy to change from shoe to shoe so I basically have them in all the time and never have any issues with them moving around or causing any rubbing or whatever. I was sceptical and thought that my foot would blister on the line where orthotic stops and shoe starts but that's never happened despite doing ultra marathon distances in them.

I use FASIC in Edinburgh (the Uni sports injuries/assessment place).
Post edited at 08:25
99ster - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:
> I get some pain up insides of ankles when go over 10mile. Can't afford podiatrist fees.

You will massively regret this when you've done yourself some serious damage. Go and see a podiatrist and get some
proper custom insoles. It will be money very well spent.
Post edited at 10:52
Steff - on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:

I would recommend spending the money on one session with a really good sports physio to look for imbalances and show your corresponding exercises for correction.

I am not militantly against orthotics as the barefoot running crow are, because they have their uses. However, I believe the problem is often somewhere else. I certainly think off the shelf orthotic insoles are a waste of money.
RX-78 on 12 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:

used to get a lot of issues running and had shoes to correct for over-pronation. Eventually I bought some vivobarefoot shoes for running, and tried to change my running style. Seemd to work for me. Eventually I ditched the over-pronation shoes and now run in neutral mizuno running shoes and only occasionally use the vivobarefoot shoes to keep my form 'correct'.
yorkshire_lad2 on 13 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:

I'd recommend investing a bit of money now (in a sports physio or podiatrist) rather than spending a lot of money (or a lot more physio) later on. If you're anywhere near Lancs/Yorks, I'd make a recommendation for the folk at Whalley Warm and Dry: they'll do all anything from "off the peg", to "off the peg and heat moulded in 10 mins on a heat pad" to full blown custom made insoles. See: http://www.whalleyoutdoor.co.uk/
(I have no connection with WW&D other than as a satisfied customer, and my sister, who is quite fussy about her feet, was very happy with their insoles too).
99ster - on 13 Sep 2017
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

> I'd recommend investing a bit of money now (in a sports physio or podiatrist) rather than spending a lot of money (or a lot more physio) later on. If you're anywhere near Lancs/Yorks, I'd make a recommendation for the folk at Whalley Warm and Dry: they'll do all anything from "off the peg", to "off the peg and heat moulded in 10 mins on a heat pad" to full blown custom made insoles. See: http://www.whalleyoutdoor.co.uk/

> (I have no connection with WW&D other than as a satisfied customer, and my sister, who is quite fussy about her feet, was very happy with their insoles too).

+100 highly recommended.
im off - on 13 Sep 2017
In reply to Ferret:

Thanks. Worth a look. I had a podiatrist consult and was estimated 600 pounds for a year of treatment. Maybe try another. Recently done an ultra and want to do more. Do you always use the insoles. What do you think about this making you feet weaken and rely even more on support. I find over 20 miles say, my feet are too tired to stop pronation and need the support.
im off - on 13 Sep 2017
In reply to 99ster:

Hi. I did see a podiatrist. He wanted 600 quid off me for a year...
Choice of going for it or going to alps this Oct. ..you can guess which I chose.
I'm gonna shop around other podiatrists maybe.
Regarding permanent damage, already got some of that after a fall 15 years ago.
I sort of think running long distances will give you some aches.
Cheers .
wbo - on 13 Sep 2017
In reply to im off: well it's a pretty common problem that when people are tired their style falls to pieces.

No one has asked: what shoes do you use now? What do you like about them? What have you tried before? How long have you been running, do long runs? How often do you run 10 plus? Have you considered getting a motion control shoe rather than jumping straight to orthotics?

JamButty - on 13 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=667788

I asked similar a few weeks back.
As an update Ive been using the insoles mentioned for about a month and am slowly extending my running, still on a run/walk. Whether they'll help me stay injury free and extend my distance, remains to be seen.

Ferret on 14 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:

History - When I was at school (80s), for a time, the NHS used to 'build up' my shoes, i.e. they glued sculpted cork into them to treat mild over-pronation. I think the theory was that if it was caught early all you needed to do was get feet/bones in correct alignment and as you grow the alignment eventually sticks. They stopped doing it after a while - I have no memory of whether I just stopped going (getting taken by mum to be more accurate) or if I was ever actually signed off as fixed.... Fast forward to my late 20s and I realised I was getting all sorts of ankle/knee pain and longevity issues in my mountaineering (main sport at time). Penny dropped and for running at least I started using over-pronation specific shoes. Didn't make much difference, good to start with but wore out very quickly and still issues doing long and hard mountain days/multi days.

So went to podiatrist and they did the carbon orthotics. I wear them pretty much constantly and have used for almost 15 years now. Not sure I believe the making things worse theory as my joints have been perfect ever since, they were not perfect before and they have got no worse since as far as I can tell. As they are half/three quarter length size they go in and out of whatever I'm wearing very easy. It's just total habit to take out of what I'm wearing and put into whatever I'm about to put on. Probably easier actually than if I only used them in specific circumstances as I'd be more likely to forget or not have them to hand. I do cope fine without - if I'm dodging around the garden/doing DIY or whatever I just chuck on whatever wellies/old trainers etc come to hand. But work shoes, road and trail running, ski boots, hiking boots etc I wear. I don't in rock boots..... On skis you can actually see that when I don't have them I'm trending towards being on the inside edges of the skis, when I do wear, I'm a lot more level along the length of the ski.

As far as bare foot running, and the whole theory of going natural etc... I'm afraid I'm in the camp that most of what we wear day in day out it is thoroughly unnatural and we have all messed our feet up from an early age. Simply going all out to go 'back to nature' doesn't mean to me that my feet, bones, joints etc are ever going to cope... I know that mankind has run hundreds of miles without any shoes... but aboriginal man didn't spend his formative years in school shoes etc... and there is no historical record of how many had bad joints and pain issues! Just because some did amazing things, not all did.

I did a few hundred kms for example in Salomon Fellraisers. Loved the fit, feel and performance but was crippled with super tight calf muscles. Thought at time it was just as I was really beginning to push up into ultra training for first time but it never got better. Circa 1,000km later and I went onto Speedcross instead which has a heel to toe drop a fair bit greater than the Fellraisers. Problem solved. So, despite giving it a pretty good try it seems my body did not want me in low drop shoes. I'll go with what makes my body work, not try to change my geometry now..... So that means decent heel to toe drop and orthotics. My average annual spend on check up and occasional refurb is probably less than what I save in my running shoes lasting a very long time now and ease of shopping around vs. trying to get the correct corrective running shoe every time.
Ridge - on 14 Sep 2017
In reply to Ferret:

Good post. I agree completely re: the barefoot running thing. If you're biomechanically efficient then I can see the benefit. If you have a dodgy gait then you'd have been eaten by a hyaena in the days when all runners were barefoot, so best to use what technology you can.

The only problem with orthotics with a large correction, like mine, is they do seem to increase the impact force on the footstrike. They also feel a bit 'clumpy', and I don't wear them for fast stuff like 5Ks.
mrj_langley - on 14 Sep 2017
In reply to im off:

Echoing what's been said above regards 'What shoes are you currently using?' If you've truly exhausted all your options in stability/motion control shoes then yes have a look at an orthotic with the obvious downside being cost and then running fit/comfort. Sometimes it can be just as much challenge finding a shoe that takes an orthotic well and doesn't wear out too quickly or position your foor within the shoe to cause heel slip etc.

I'd say pop to a local running specialist and have a go on the treadmill, do a gait analysis which whilst is sometimes a bit of a selling technique/pseudi science can at least give you an idea of what your feet/ankles do while running and how different shoes affect this, depending on how your foot strikes the ground and different biomechanical factors/body geometry shoes that are marketed in the same category of stability can offer vastly different levels of support to individual runners.

Above all, have this conversation with runners (staff) in the shop and if they're not happy to have this conversation or try and push you into a sale then leave and find a better shop.
im off - on 14 Sep 2017
In reply to wbo:

I wear a pair of brooks road shoes for pronators but added a cheapish moulded pronator insole. However I avoid running on tarmac.
Run trails fells...inov8 mudclaw 300. With the moulded insoles. I find at 10 to 20 miles I start to run more flat footed. I try to run on the balls of my feet I suppose.
Both trainers are comfortable. Think I probably need something thicker than mudclaw 300.
Running 10m for years. This year done 2 25m fell runs and a 50m run. Run about 20 m a week.
Been told insoles may weaken your feet further.
Jesus. It's complicated then.
Strangely, the 50m run bothered me less than the 25m. Due to running slower I guess.

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