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So, 7 years after I began the endeavour of writing an ice climbing guidebook for the Trondheim area of Norway, I've finally began to start the process of formatting all of the info I have collected so far into something that looks like a book. Obviously its not a must visit destination, but I feel it would be really good to have a dedicated ice guide for an area with very reliable ice. So far we only have a few pages with limited detail in the back of the local rock guide. Most of the text for routes is done, the introduction is in process but the biggest thing I lack is maps. Photos and topos are going to be re-done this winter, hopefully with the aid of a drone to get really nice overview pictures of lines that are often obscured by trees. My plan is to have a book ready for review by summer 2019, allowing for 2 winters to get photos, climb routes and draw maps/ topos.
For the guidebook writers out there tho, what advice do you have for guidebook writing? Especially what you have learned during the process and what you would do/ not do again. What did you miss or should have included?
Also, how did you write and format yours? My early version was a PowerPoint document formatted in A5, but the lack of a decent spell check function and the constant requirement to shift text boxes around pretty much ended that phase. I now have most text in Word, with maps and figures formatted to fit half or full pages for ease of text handling (although this too is excruciatingly tedious). Are there any other programs out there you would recommend?
What do you recommend with crediting FA's and giving routes with an unknown FA a name? A lot of routes have likely been done, those I have discovered or explored are given a first recorded ascent as we just assume its been done before. Many of the big lines come with an FA published in the rock guide which is fine. The issue is that a lot of routes have likely been done by students etc passing through Trondheim back when nothing was advertised or put on the internet, therefore giving a correct FA is nigh on impossible and route names I have made so far also become very boring, eg. left icefall, right icefall, the one in the middle... etc etc. Any thoughts on this, can I at least create some more lively names?
What about advertising? Is it worth getting in touch with local stores and climbing walls to insert some adverts? How was your experience with with doing this?
Finally to everyone else: What do you feel is missing from many guides? What do you like and what do you hate?
Sorry for the long post, really looking forward to the responses here and thanks in advance
For the guidebook writers out there tho, what advice do you have for guidebook writing? Especially what you have learned during the process and what you would do/ not do again. What did you miss or should have included?
Also, how did you write and format yours? My early version was a PowerPoint document formatted in A5, but the lack of a decent spell check function and the constant requirement to shift text boxes around pretty much ended that phase. I now have most text in Word, with maps and figures formatted to fit half or full pages for ease of text handling (although this too is excruciatingly tedious). Are there any other programs out there you would recommend?
What do you recommend with crediting FA's and giving routes with an unknown FA a name? A lot of routes have likely been done, those I have discovered or explored are given a first recorded ascent as we just assume its been done before. Many of the big lines come with an FA published in the rock guide which is fine. The issue is that a lot of routes have likely been done by students etc passing through Trondheim back when nothing was advertised or put on the internet, therefore giving a correct FA is nigh on impossible and route names I have made so far also become very boring, eg. left icefall, right icefall, the one in the middle... etc etc. Any thoughts on this, can I at least create some more lively names?
What about advertising? Is it worth getting in touch with local stores and climbing walls to insert some adverts? How was your experience with with doing this?
Finally to everyone else: What do you feel is missing from many guides? What do you like and what do you hate?
Sorry for the long post, really looking forward to the responses here and thanks in advance
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In reply to GarethSL:
I've written about 25 guidebooks so -
I'm not sure how big your book is going to be, but don't underestimate the time is takes to do the layout/text. I have always reckoned (when working more or less full-time on a book) to get a single page a day done.
I have a really bad habit of leaving the jobs I don't like (maps, local info, introductions etc) until the end, which is a poor idea 'cos it means the final stages of the book becomes a chore.
I don't know how you can contemplate doing a book without a proper publishing package - we use Adobe InDesign, which is superb, but it costs and there is a learning curve associated with it.
Adverts are a fair idea, they offset the print costs and can be useful freebies for people/organisations etc who have helped.
Most important - double check all your info, write the approaches for people who don't know the area, and don't fudge it - you will be found out
Hope this helps a little,
Chris
I've written about 25 guidebooks so -
I'm not sure how big your book is going to be, but don't underestimate the time is takes to do the layout/text. I have always reckoned (when working more or less full-time on a book) to get a single page a day done.
I have a really bad habit of leaving the jobs I don't like (maps, local info, introductions etc) until the end, which is a poor idea 'cos it means the final stages of the book becomes a chore.
I don't know how you can contemplate doing a book without a proper publishing package - we use Adobe InDesign, which is superb, but it costs and there is a learning curve associated with it.
Adverts are a fair idea, they offset the print costs and can be useful freebies for people/organisations etc who have helped.
Most important - double check all your info, write the approaches for people who don't know the area, and don't fudge it - you will be found out
Hope this helps a little,
Chris
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Re InDesign +1. One of the most user-friendly pieces of software I've ever used. Learning curve isn't too steep, if you're used to designing books already. You'll be doing crucial things like kerning and tracking next to no time.
Re InDesign +1. One of the most user-friendly pieces of software I've ever used. Learning curve isn't too steep, if you're used to designing books already. You'll be doing crucial things like kerning and tracking next to no time.
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In reply to GarethSL:
Get someone else to read your text, preferably someone who knows how and when to use apostrophes. Proofreading your own work properly is virtually impossible.
Get someone else to read your text, preferably someone who knows how and when to use apostrophes. Proofreading your own work properly is virtually impossible.
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In reply to GarethSL:
How are you doing for action photos? If you're well provided for them, great... if not, don't underestimate the time it will take to get them. (And no, sorry, I'm not volunteering! ).
Paul
How are you doing for action photos? If you're well provided for them, great... if not, don't underestimate the time it will take to get them. (And no, sorry, I'm not volunteering! ).
Paul
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In reply to GarethSL:
Not an expert but I'm now 75% of the way through setting S Devon for the CC. Others did the hard work of developing the house style and templates I am using. There are now so many good guides to study for ideas on that.
Another vote for InDesign and the rest of the Adobe suite. The Adobe programs synchronise beautifully eg. update the phototopo photo in PS and it will change it in Illustrator, then save that and it will update in InDesign.
Yes, you can simply paste your text in from Word. Be prepared to be flexible and edit your text, topos and photos at this late stage to fit your page layouts.
Do your best to keep topos and routes on the same double page spread. Avoid repetition. Information in visual form is more easily absorbed in the crag environment. Nobody goes to the crag for a nice read! Avoid repetition (lol).
Send some of your early pages to someone who knows what they are doing - they can point out rookie errors.
I'm averaging nearly 2 hours a page to lay out and make modifications to pre-prepared topos, text and action pics. Maps will add to this.
I'd enjoy yourself making up names for unrecorded routes provided you have followed up all the obvious leads. Whilst others may have opinions, it is you that is making things happen.
Good luck!
Not an expert but I'm now 75% of the way through setting S Devon for the CC. Others did the hard work of developing the house style and templates I am using. There are now so many good guides to study for ideas on that.
Another vote for InDesign and the rest of the Adobe suite. The Adobe programs synchronise beautifully eg. update the phototopo photo in PS and it will change it in Illustrator, then save that and it will update in InDesign.
Yes, you can simply paste your text in from Word. Be prepared to be flexible and edit your text, topos and photos at this late stage to fit your page layouts.
Do your best to keep topos and routes on the same double page spread. Avoid repetition. Information in visual form is more easily absorbed in the crag environment. Nobody goes to the crag for a nice read! Avoid repetition (lol).
Send some of your early pages to someone who knows what they are doing - they can point out rookie errors.
I'm averaging nearly 2 hours a page to lay out and make modifications to pre-prepared topos, text and action pics. Maps will add to this.
I'd enjoy yourself making up names for unrecorded routes provided you have followed up all the obvious leads. Whilst others may have opinions, it is you that is making things happen.
Good luck!
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Thank you that's some really nice input and I was actually hoping you might respond! I have a few Adobe programs that I used for my PhD and now also at work, the costs of those are covered, so I guess a monthly subscription to InDesign isn't too bad if I can use it for other things. Honestly trying to write and format in standard office programs has been the biggest inhibitor to this project so far. I'll download the trial and have a play!
Will definitely heed your other advice too!
Thank you that's some really nice input and I was actually hoping you might respond! I have a few Adobe programs that I used for my PhD and now also at work, the costs of those are covered, so I guess a monthly subscription to InDesign isn't too bad if I can use it for other things. Honestly trying to write and format in standard office programs has been the biggest inhibitor to this project so far. I'll download the trial and have a play!
Will definitely heed your other advice too!
In reply to Kafoozalem:
Nice, thank you! The only downside is I much prefer CorelDraw as opposed to Illustrator for figure and map drawing so I will loose all of the functionality there (I knew I should have learned it).
I think with the route names we'll go for names that are still relatively generic or focused around the local area, but there are a few fun ones in the pipe, just need to apply them to routes with the right character.
Nice, thank you! The only downside is I much prefer CorelDraw as opposed to Illustrator for figure and map drawing so I will loose all of the functionality there (I knew I should have learned it).
I think with the route names we'll go for names that are still relatively generic or focused around the local area, but there are a few fun ones in the pipe, just need to apply them to routes with the right character.
In reply to GarethSL:
It is worth knowing that the drawing function available in InDesign is perfectly adequate for guidebook topos. We do use Illustrator for maps now but have used InDesign for maps for years. All our topos are drawn straight into ID. This has the benefit of making everything easier to edit from within one app and might save you a bit of your Adobe subscription. You can get a month's worth of InDesign for £30 for example and any old version of Photoshop (or the like) should suffice for the photos.
For unknown route names - We now require route names for every route since the app doesn't work without them. I avoid doing Route 1, Route 2, etc. at full crags where route names aren't known. Better to be descriptive as you have been - Left-hand wall, Main Crack, etc. That way you give a name without annoying the FA. We did once try making top names on a theme but got a lot of stick for that. In other areas, like Burbage South boulders, I just made up a load of names which seem to have stuck.
Obviously getting the name from the FA is the best option but this isn't always possible, particularly at some sport crags where the routes sometimes don't even have a name.
Advertising helps pay the printing bills for sure but can take a lot of effort to arrange at a time when you want to be doing other things. It may also be hard to come fresh into the market with an unproven product.
Alan
> Nice, thank you! The only downside is I much prefer CorelDraw as opposed to Illustrator for figure and map drawing so I will loose all of the functionality there (I knew I should have learned it).
It is worth knowing that the drawing function available in InDesign is perfectly adequate for guidebook topos. We do use Illustrator for maps now but have used InDesign for maps for years. All our topos are drawn straight into ID. This has the benefit of making everything easier to edit from within one app and might save you a bit of your Adobe subscription. You can get a month's worth of InDesign for £30 for example and any old version of Photoshop (or the like) should suffice for the photos.
For unknown route names - We now require route names for every route since the app doesn't work without them. I avoid doing Route 1, Route 2, etc. at full crags where route names aren't known. Better to be descriptive as you have been - Left-hand wall, Main Crack, etc. That way you give a name without annoying the FA. We did once try making top names on a theme but got a lot of stick for that. In other areas, like Burbage South boulders, I just made up a load of names which seem to have stuck.
Obviously getting the name from the FA is the best option but this isn't always possible, particularly at some sport crags where the routes sometimes don't even have a name.
Advertising helps pay the printing bills for sure but can take a lot of effort to arrange at a time when you want to be doing other things. It may also be hard to come fresh into the market with an unproven product.
Alan
Post edited at 09:21
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In reply to GarethSL:
You definitely need to inform the local climbing community (and the whole of Norway) that you're doing a guide because there will be loads of stuff that comes out of the woodwork. In terms of FA & route name details, put down what you know, it can always be updated when someone complains. Chances are that there won't be a second edition for some time, so you need to get word out ASAP so people can let you know what they've done before it goes to print.
Definitely include local businesses / walls / shops for adverts, it lets a visitor know what's in the area.
Good luck!
You definitely need to inform the local climbing community (and the whole of Norway) that you're doing a guide because there will be loads of stuff that comes out of the woodwork. In terms of FA & route name details, put down what you know, it can always be updated when someone complains. Chances are that there won't be a second edition for some time, so you need to get word out ASAP so people can let you know what they've done before it goes to print.
Definitely include local businesses / walls / shops for adverts, it lets a visitor know what's in the area.
Good luck!
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In reply to GarethSL:
Get someone to look at it who´ s never been there and doesn´ t know where it is, stuff like which country the goddam place is in is useful!
Get someone to look at it who´ s never been there and doesn´ t know where it is, stuff like which country the goddam place is in is useful!
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
For L337s it's LaTeX ftw, you n00b
> I don't know how you can contemplate doing a book without a proper publishing package - we use Adobe InDesign, which is superb, but it costs and there is a learning curve associated with it.
For L337s it's LaTeX ftw, you n00b
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Hi Alan, thanks for your reply!
Out of curiosity how have you been making your maps? Currently I am downloading vector pdfs of areas from Open Street Maps, editing them and crediting OSM accordingly, though I worry there might be a copyright issue here if the book eventually goes on sale.
Do you use a basemap from somewhere or draw from scratch?
Hi Alan, thanks for your reply!
Out of curiosity how have you been making your maps? Currently I am downloading vector pdfs of areas from Open Street Maps, editing them and crediting OSM accordingly, though I worry there might be a copyright issue here if the book eventually goes on sale.
Do you use a basemap from somewhere or draw from scratch?
In reply to GarethSL:
We pretty much draw them ourselves from base maps from OpenStreetMap which avoids copyright issues. I find the OSM vector PDFs are awkward to use and have way more detail than you actually need, so we tend to end up just tracing the base features. That enables us to get the maps to scale, which is required for the geo-located maps we now use in the Rockfax app where you show up as a blue dot on them even when offline. You can get bits of detail from various different satellite views and, most importantly, on the ground yourself. This effectively makes it our own unique map although I do give a general credit to OSM.
Alan
> Out of curiosity how have you been making your maps? Currently I am downloading vector pdfs of areas from Open Street Maps, editing them and crediting OSM accordingly, though I worry there might be a copyright issue here if the book eventually goes on sale.
We pretty much draw them ourselves from base maps from OpenStreetMap which avoids copyright issues. I find the OSM vector PDFs are awkward to use and have way more detail than you actually need, so we tend to end up just tracing the base features. That enables us to get the maps to scale, which is required for the geo-located maps we now use in the Rockfax app where you show up as a blue dot on them even when offline. You can get bits of detail from various different satellite views and, most importantly, on the ground yourself. This effectively makes it our own unique map although I do give a general credit to OSM.
Alan
Post edited at 16:03
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In reply to GarethSL:
Regardless of which direction you approach from, describe every Crag and route from left to right.
Keep topos and written discriptions on the same page.
Use stars.
Don't write terrifying discriptions that wil put people off trying the route.
Regardless of which direction you approach from, describe every Crag and route from left to right.
Keep topos and written discriptions on the same page.
Use stars.
Don't write terrifying discriptions that wil put people off trying the route.
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In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Provided the crag has a topo, I agree.
> Regardless of which direction you approach from, describe every Crag and route from left to right.
>
>
Provided the crag has a topo, I agree.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Why would it not have a topo?
Also... regardless of wether it has a topo or not it should be left to right, as English is written left to right.
If you don't believe go and climb Nightride on the Main Cliff with Gogarth North and Rockfax's N Wales Climbs.
> Provided the crag has a topo, I agree.
Why would it not have a topo?
Also... regardless of wether it has a topo or not it should be left to right, as English is written left to right.
If you don't believe go and climb Nightride on the Main Cliff with Gogarth North and Rockfax's N Wales Climbs.
In reply to GarethSL:
There is a free tool called Maperitive that is well worth checking out. It allows you to download the OSM data for a specified area and then style it as you please using rules you can then output a file to illustrator for some tweaking. You have massive control over what features are included, scale, contour intervals, colours, fills, font etc.
I have only recently got my head around using the styles but you can set up various ones for different maps and it can be a really efficient way to produce multiple maps with a consistent look.
There is a free tool called Maperitive that is well worth checking out. It allows you to download the OSM data for a specified area and then style it as you please using rules you can then output a file to illustrator for some tweaking. You have massive control over what features are included, scale, contour intervals, colours, fills, font etc.
I have only recently got my head around using the styles but you can set up various ones for different maps and it can be a really efficient way to produce multiple maps with a consistent look.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Why would it not have a topo? OK, this is less applicable to the OP than some rock crags, but there could be trees obscuring the view of the crag, it could be a sea cliff with no decent vantage point, it could be a very spread out crag (lots of small buttresses), or there could be only a few minor routes on many isolated crags so the topo space for them all may not be justified.
I'm well aware of the merits of good photo-topos and the basic advantage of reading a guide left to right, but when not practicable for the reasons given above I think it makes sense to describe a crag according to it's main features, and sometimes taking the order they're reached into account.
Why would it not have a topo? OK, this is less applicable to the OP than some rock crags, but there could be trees obscuring the view of the crag, it could be a sea cliff with no decent vantage point, it could be a very spread out crag (lots of small buttresses), or there could be only a few minor routes on many isolated crags so the topo space for them all may not be justified.
I'm well aware of the merits of good photo-topos and the basic advantage of reading a guide left to right, but when not practicable for the reasons given above I think it makes sense to describe a crag according to it's main features, and sometimes taking the order they're reached into account.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Fortunately almost all routes are isolated with the exception of a few crags that have several lines (not many), thus each gets its own topo, a number and its position on an overview map. Each route also gets its own access, description and descent text, google map co-ordinates for the base of the route and also for the best/safest/most suitable parking spot.
I also think Tom is right with routes being described left to right and I would have thought that is this somewhat of an established standard?
Fortunately almost all routes are isolated with the exception of a few crags that have several lines (not many), thus each gets its own topo, a number and its position on an overview map. Each route also gets its own access, description and descent text, google map co-ordinates for the base of the route and also for the best/safest/most suitable parking spot.
I also think Tom is right with routes being described left to right and I would have thought that is this somewhat of an established standard?
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In reply to GarethSL:
Sounds good. Devoting space to big routes like those in your guide (I assume) is justifiable. I'm just an observer (not a producer), but when I consider the myriad of small minor crags (often with just a few routes on them) in a definitive rock climbing guide, the practice of giving each a topo seems to me most likely unworkable. It then becomes a case of describing according to features rather than letting the topo assist with location, and left to right as a hard and fast rule would be in my opinion less appropriate. Not as difficult if there are good lines of ice to describe.
> Fortunately almost all routes are isolated with the exception of a few crags that have several lines (not many), thus each gets its own topo, a number and its position on an overview map. Each route also gets its own access, description and descent text, google map co-ordinates for the base of the route and also for the best/safest/most suitable parking spot.
>
>
Sounds good. Devoting space to big routes like those in your guide (I assume) is justifiable. I'm just an observer (not a producer), but when I consider the myriad of small minor crags (often with just a few routes on them) in a definitive rock climbing guide, the practice of giving each a topo seems to me most likely unworkable. It then becomes a case of describing according to features rather than letting the topo assist with location, and left to right as a hard and fast rule would be in my opinion less appropriate. Not as difficult if there are good lines of ice to describe.
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In reply to Dave Flanagan:
That is brilliant, thanks for the tip! A quick play reveals that some of the features are not available for me, especially the contours which is a shame cause that would have been a fantastic addition to the map! I'll investigate further and see if I can get it working
That is brilliant, thanks for the tip! A quick play reveals that some of the features are not available for me, especially the contours which is a shame cause that would have been a fantastic addition to the map! I'll investigate further and see if I can get it working
In reply to GarethSL:
There should be a global dataset that works for you. Try this command - set-dem-source name=SRTMV3R3
There should be a global dataset that works for you. Try this command - set-dem-source name=SRTMV3R3
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In reply to Dave Flanagan:
Agh the command worked but i have to manually download the .htg data from http://viewfinderpanoramas.org/dem3.html which isn't the most detailed! but at least I have something I can begin to work with!
Agh the command worked but i have to manually download the .htg data from http://viewfinderpanoramas.org/dem3.html which isn't the most detailed! but at least I have something I can begin to work with!
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