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I often have a look at the list of recent top ascents and note that there are rarely more than one or two on the list in the Lakes.....is that because they are too hard for most people, or entirely down to other reasons.....perhaps bracken?
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In reply to tmawer:
One or two routes in the Lakes is probably to be expected when you consider that the (trad) list is only 10 routes and that there are a number of other quality climbing areas in the UK - the Peak, Wales, Scotland etc. Gritstone is the most popular medium for hard trad (particularly headpoints) and bouldering, while Yorkshire lime is where it's at for hard sport climbing.
One or two routes in the Lakes is probably to be expected when you consider that the (trad) list is only 10 routes and that there are a number of other quality climbing areas in the UK - the Peak, Wales, Scotland etc. Gritstone is the most popular medium for hard trad (particularly headpoints) and bouldering, while Yorkshire lime is where it's at for hard sport climbing.
2
In reply to Michael Gordon:
There are currently 40 routes in the list I am meaning (E5 and harder) and I can't see any in the Lake's, which is more often than not the case.
There are currently 40 routes in the list I am meaning (E5 and harder) and I can't see any in the Lake's, which is more often than not the case.
In reply to tmawer:
Smaller catchment area.
Unreliable weather.
Ego-withering grading (unless you are 'ard)
In that order.
I love the lakes, and it is a viable day trip for me from Yorkshire. For others it would be a weekend only trip, and for that you really want a high chance of 2 dry days. . .
Wales and the Peak are more central and accessible from the south of England more easily.
Tongue in cheek about grading, but you don't get owt for nowt up there.
Andy.
Smaller catchment area.
Unreliable weather.
Ego-withering grading (unless you are 'ard)
In that order.
I love the lakes, and it is a viable day trip for me from Yorkshire. For others it would be a weekend only trip, and for that you really want a high chance of 2 dry days. . .
Wales and the Peak are more central and accessible from the south of England more easily.
Tongue in cheek about grading, but you don't get owt for nowt up there.
Andy.
6
In reply to tmawer:
Don't think the rainfall totals will be exceptional but it seems to have rained most days since mid July, dry rock in short supply, decent May and June
Don't think the rainfall totals will be exceptional but it seems to have rained most days since mid July, dry rock in short supply, decent May and June
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In reply to tmawer:
Ah OK, yes that is surprising. I might have expected maybe 4/5 out of 40.
> There are currently 40 routes in the list I am meaning (E5 and harder) and I can't see any in the Lake's, which is more often than not the case.
Ah OK, yes that is surprising. I might have expected maybe 4/5 out of 40.
In reply to tmawer:
I can testify that it has indeed been a very wet season here in the Lakes.
A glance through the list reveals not very many in Scotland either, and that's one huge area of land with a massive number of crags and climbs. I suspect the same thing applies to up there...?
I can testify that it has indeed been a very wet season here in the Lakes.
A glance through the list reveals not very many in Scotland either, and that's one huge area of land with a massive number of crags and climbs. I suspect the same thing applies to up there...?
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In reply to GrahamUney:
You do see hard stuff being done in Scotland quite regularly through Facebook but obviously those folk aren't using the logbook system.
> A glance through the list reveals not very many in Scotland either, and that's one huge area of land with a massive number of crags and climbs. I suspect the same thing applies to up there...?
You do see hard stuff being done in Scotland quite regularly through Facebook but obviously those folk aren't using the logbook system.
In reply to GrahamUney:
I don't think 5 out of 40 in Scotland is surprising, considering where the bulk of the population is (a long way away!). The weather could be amazing and you'd most likely still see the same/similar statistic.
I don't think 5 out of 40 in Scotland is surprising, considering where the bulk of the population is (a long way away!). The weather could be amazing and you'd most likely still see the same/similar statistic.
1
In reply to tmawer:
We have a strong Bouldering scene though, not unusual to have have a few top bouldeing accents in any given week.
We have a strong Bouldering scene though, not unusual to have have a few top bouldeing accents in any given week.
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In reply to Steve Perry:
I reckon you're right Steve. The same goes for here in the Lakes to a certain extent. A lot of folk just don't bother recording them on UKC.
I reckon you're right Steve. The same goes for here in the Lakes to a certain extent. A lot of folk just don't bother recording them on UKC.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
And maybe you're on to something there too Michael. Looking at that list, an awful lot of them are in the south, Peak. Snowdonia...
And maybe you're on to something there too Michael. Looking at that list, an awful lot of them are in the south, Peak. Snowdonia...
In reply to tmawer:
Climbing in the Lakes is not like climbing in other major climbing areas. It is much quieter, the climbers are much more spread out rather than forming a 'scene' and the routes put up a lot more resistance. This resistance is mainly being piss-wet the whole time, and then if they're dry you've either got to clean it or have at least a grade in hand to deal with the filth (since the grades ain't soft, and there are s lot of bold routes).
In Pembroke, people frequently queue for routes like Minotaur, Get Some In, etc. They're trade routes, plastered in chalk. The only routes you might queue for in the Lakes are severes by the roadside.
As far as I'm concerned anyone who ever gets up a hard route in the Lakes is performing not much short of a miracle. They've had a day off, a partner, dry rock, all on the same day *and then* they managed to climb E5+. If I get a partner and a dry forecast on a day off, I start by cumming in my pants and end by climbing a damp HVS.
Edit. The dampness of the HVS has got nothing to do with...oh never mind.
Further edit. I don't think I'm really helping myself find partners here with all this...it was a figure of speech, honest
Climbing in the Lakes is not like climbing in other major climbing areas. It is much quieter, the climbers are much more spread out rather than forming a 'scene' and the routes put up a lot more resistance. This resistance is mainly being piss-wet the whole time, and then if they're dry you've either got to clean it or have at least a grade in hand to deal with the filth (since the grades ain't soft, and there are s lot of bold routes).
In Pembroke, people frequently queue for routes like Minotaur, Get Some In, etc. They're trade routes, plastered in chalk. The only routes you might queue for in the Lakes are severes by the roadside.
As far as I'm concerned anyone who ever gets up a hard route in the Lakes is performing not much short of a miracle. They've had a day off, a partner, dry rock, all on the same day *and then* they managed to climb E5+. If I get a partner and a dry forecast on a day off, I start by cumming in my pants and end by climbing a damp HVS.
Edit. The dampness of the HVS has got nothing to do with...oh never mind.
Further edit. I don't think I'm really helping myself find partners here with all this...it was a figure of speech, honest
Post edited at 21:36
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In reply to tmawer:
Tony, they are well hard for the boulderbating wall generation, it is also colder and wetter than imaginable for this time of year. Balls required! As another said, I think the same applies to Scotland, did lots there 2001-2006, too cold and wet now.
Have just put together a bunch of photos from the 80s of fairly famous activists. Almost all the spring/summer photos we were climbing in shorts only, no T shirts even.
No chance now!
DC
> I often have a look at the list of recent top ascents and note that there are rarely more than one or two on the list in the Lakes.....is that because they are too hard for most people, or entirely down to other reasons.....perhaps bracken?
Tony, they are well hard for the boulderbating wall generation, it is also colder and wetter than imaginable for this time of year. Balls required! As another said, I think the same applies to Scotland, did lots there 2001-2006, too cold and wet now.
Have just put together a bunch of photos from the 80s of fairly famous activists. Almost all the spring/summer photos we were climbing in shorts only, no T shirts even.
No chance now!
DC
1
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Two three star E5 Livesey routes; Right Wall has 296 logged ascents, Footless Crow just 20 and only one of those logged with full date information. I think people are right that it's a combination of factors, but it's been like this a long time. It doesn't really matter, but it's interesting.
Two three star E5 Livesey routes; Right Wall has 296 logged ascents, Footless Crow just 20 and only one of those logged with full date information. I think people are right that it's a combination of factors, but it's been like this a long time. It doesn't really matter, but it's interesting.
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In reply to tmawer:
Right Wall is seen for many as a target for first E5 (many ascents from those who wouldn't regard themselves as "E5 climbers"), while isn't Footless Crow a fair bit harder?
Right Wall is seen for many as a target for first E5 (many ascents from those who wouldn't regard themselves as "E5 climbers"), while isn't Footless Crow a fair bit harder?
In reply to tmawer:
Accessibility and weather are probably the main reasons.
It has been the case in the past decade or so that a hardcore of locals (inc awsomal who posts on here occasionally) have cleaned up some of the best, more accessible crags with hard routes, namely Dove, Iron and Raven Crag Thirlmere. Some of the harder routes on Raven Crag Threshwaite get done fairly regularly.
Due the nature of the rock being relatively clean on Dove/Iron I don't imagine the E5s/6s/7s are in bad nick if they're dry.
On the really high crags conditions and walk ins mean those routes will only see a few ascents each year anyway, due to logistics.
I might even go so far as to say that the E5 and above Lakes climber is less likely to be someone who uses the logbooks i.e. an avid ticker/trophy hunter. Just a hunch.
Accessibility and weather are probably the main reasons.
It has been the case in the past decade or so that a hardcore of locals (inc awsomal who posts on here occasionally) have cleaned up some of the best, more accessible crags with hard routes, namely Dove, Iron and Raven Crag Thirlmere. Some of the harder routes on Raven Crag Threshwaite get done fairly regularly.
Due the nature of the rock being relatively clean on Dove/Iron I don't imagine the E5s/6s/7s are in bad nick if they're dry.
On the really high crags conditions and walk ins mean those routes will only see a few ascents each year anyway, due to logistics.
I might even go so far as to say that the E5 and above Lakes climber is less likely to be someone who uses the logbooks i.e. an avid ticker/trophy hunter. Just a hunch.
Post edited at 09:21
4
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Bracketing 'Scotland' as a climbing area alongside the Lakes or the Peak or Pembroke is a replication of the south-centric BBC weather map mindset, we must not accept it!
"Ah, they're firing on the ranges today, let's drive over to Mother Carey's instead."
"Hmm, the conditions at Dumby are a bit crap, shall we go and take a look at Sarclet?"
That's why
Bracketing 'Scotland' as a climbing area alongside the Lakes or the Peak or Pembroke is a replication of the south-centric BBC weather map mindset, we must not accept it!
"Ah, they're firing on the ranges today, let's drive over to Mother Carey's instead."
"Hmm, the conditions at Dumby are a bit crap, shall we go and take a look at Sarclet?"
That's why
6
> I might even go so far as to say that the E5 and above Lakes climber is less likely to be someone who uses the logbooks i.e. an avid ticker/trophy hunter. Just a hunch.
I suspect you are right. I think the routes on the crags you mention do get done, but those climbing them are busy climbing and training, rather than filling in log books!
In reply to tmawer:
The two routes are pretty much incomparable these days.
In the case of Right Wall it's E5, probably around French 6c, permanently clean, and despite the occasional bold section has very good gear.
Footless Crow is top end E6, French 7b+/7c (it gets 7c+ in the new FRCC guide!), is on a crag that is notorious for it's rapid lichen growth, and it protected largely by old/in-situ pegs.
The two routes are pretty much incomparable these days.
In the case of Right Wall it's E5, probably around French 6c, permanently clean, and despite the occasional bold section has very good gear.
Footless Crow is top end E6, French 7b+/7c (it gets 7c+ in the new FRCC guide!), is on a crag that is notorious for it's rapid lichen growth, and it protected largely by old/in-situ pegs.
Post edited at 11:05
2
In reply to Tom Briggs:
I completely agree, although it's the lack of contingency options available too.
North Wales has venues like Tremadog and Gogarth which provide a good alternative when the weather is looking bad in the mountains. Whilst the Lakes has Chapel Head Scar, and a little fairer weather crags over towards the East, neither are quite the same (Chapel Head is too hard and the Eastern Crags still suffer from accessibility issues (i.e. they're not roadside)).
I'm guessing this would put the risk adverse climber off going up there, simply because if it does rain there are fewer backup options.
> Accessibility and weather are probably the main reasons.
I completely agree, although it's the lack of contingency options available too.
North Wales has venues like Tremadog and Gogarth which provide a good alternative when the weather is looking bad in the mountains. Whilst the Lakes has Chapel Head Scar, and a little fairer weather crags over towards the East, neither are quite the same (Chapel Head is too hard and the Eastern Crags still suffer from accessibility issues (i.e. they're not roadside)).
I'm guessing this would put the risk adverse climber off going up there, simply because if it does rain there are fewer backup options.
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
The UKC logbooks speak for themselves. Right Wall has been done about 200 times by UKCers in the last twenty years and Footless Crow only 5 times.
> The two routes are pretty much incomparable these days.
> In the case of Right Wall it's E5, probably around French 6c, permanently clean, and despite the occasional bold section has very good gear.
> Footless Crow is top end E6, French 7b+/7c (it gets 7c+ in the new FRCC guide!), is on a crag that is notorious for it's rapid lichen growth, and it protected largely by old/in-situ pegs.
The UKC logbooks speak for themselves. Right Wall has been done about 200 times by UKCers in the last twenty years and Footless Crow only 5 times.
2
In reply to tmawer:
Penial Sevitude is probably the Lakes equivalent to Right Wall, over 10 ascents this year.
Penial Sevitude is probably the Lakes equivalent to Right Wall, over 10 ascents this year.
Post edited at 12:24
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
Footless Crow shows as E5 6c, (so super well protected I guess) on Ukc logbooks, and that's always right
> Footless Crow is top end E6, French 7b+/7c (it gets 7c+ in the new FRCC guide!), is on a crag that is notorious for it's rapid lichen growth, and it protected largely by old/in-situ pegs.
Footless Crow shows as E5 6c, (so super well protected I guess) on Ukc logbooks, and that's always right
Post edited at 12:39
In reply to tmawer:
I don't know if anyone climbs the original line of Footless Crow? IIRC an undercut fell off it and made moving left very difficult, but crucially there was no longer any gear. Maybe it was the undercut that Chris Gore has a Friend in on the photo in Extreme Rock? When I did the direct I abbed down first to check gear/where it went and it was obvious that the 'line' was now the direct, passing a very dubious inverted peg, which was the only gear above a nest of RPs. All of the above could be wrong though, as it was 14 years ago!
I don't know if anyone climbs the original line of Footless Crow? IIRC an undercut fell off it and made moving left very difficult, but crucially there was no longer any gear. Maybe it was the undercut that Chris Gore has a Friend in on the photo in Extreme Rock? When I did the direct I abbed down first to check gear/where it went and it was obvious that the 'line' was now the direct, passing a very dubious inverted peg, which was the only gear above a nest of RPs. All of the above could be wrong though, as it was 14 years ago!
2
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Did you actually read what you replied too?
> The UKC logbooks speak for themselves. Right Wall has been done about 200 times by UKCers in the last twenty years and Footless Crow only 5 times.
Did you actually read what you replied too?
1
1
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Yes, and found/pointed out that the UKC logbooks confirmed rather emphatically the points that he made.
> Did you actually read what you replied too?
Yes, and found/pointed out that the UKC logbooks confirmed rather emphatically the points that he made.
3
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I've done Right Wall four or five times, but have so far managed to think up four or five hundred reasons why not to get on Footless Crow.
I'm going to have to face my fears one of these days...
I've done Right Wall four or five times, but have so far managed to think up four or five hundred reasons why not to get on Footless Crow.
I'm going to have to face my fears one of these days...
Post edited at 14:21
1
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:
Given that Bitter Oasis is one of the best routes in the valley and Mirage is also absolutely brilliant, there aren't many excuses not to get up there.
Given that Bitter Oasis is one of the best routes in the valley and Mirage is also absolutely brilliant, there aren't many excuses not to get up there.
1
In reply to Tom Briggs:
I think I thought up my 300th excuse when I did Bitter Oasis, my 400th when I did Mirage, then my 500th when I abseiled down past the route itself.
Still, point taken - it needs to be done. Couldn't agree more regarding the other routes either, they've both amazing.
One for next year!
I think I thought up my 300th excuse when I did Bitter Oasis, my 400th when I did Mirage, then my 500th when I abseiled down past the route itself.
Still, point taken - it needs to be done. Couldn't agree more regarding the other routes either, they've both amazing.
One for next year!
In reply to Andy Moles:
I quite agree! Anyway, basically the logbooks are the central belt, Ballater, Dunkeld, maybe something on the Aberdeen/Moray coast? Not often you see mountain routes in there.
> Bracketing 'Scotland' as a climbing area alongside the Lakes or the Peak or Pembroke is a replication of the south-centric BBC weather map mindset, we must not accept it!
> "Ah, they're firing on the ranges today, let's drive over to Mother Carey's instead."
> "Hmm, the conditions at Dumby are a bit crap, shall we go and take a look at Sarclet?"
> That's why
I quite agree! Anyway, basically the logbooks are the central belt, Ballater, Dunkeld, maybe something on the Aberdeen/Moray coast? Not often you see mountain routes in there.
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