UKC

Two simple questions:

What grade do I need to hit in sport climbing to say that I am no longer a punter?
What is the benchmark/exemplar climb in the UK to prove said grade?

In reply to yh001:

I'd say 7b+ and Sardine (7b+)

Although I'm not sure the real answer isn't a lot more zen than I can comprehend.

In reply to yh001:

That's dead easy - when you're a wad or megawad.

In reply to yh001:

Is there an intermediate classification between 'Punter' and 'Wad'?
If not, then I reckon 'Statement of Youth' is a good one to aim for.

In reply to yh001:

I chased the 7a grade believing that afterwards I could relax in the knowledge that I was no longer a punter, however by training, redpointing and chasing grades you end up hanging out with people who try hard at climbing who for them 7a is just a warm up, 8a is the real benchmark level.

Except of course the next group up warm up on 8a...

In reply to yh001:

Is this answer effected every time Ondra raises the bar?

In reply to yh001:

Punter in the 6s
Semi-wad in the 7s
Wad in the 8s
Megawad in the 9s

I've just pulled that out of my hole btw...

In reply to Tomtom:

God I'm such a punter

In reply to yh001:
I reckon you need to be redpointing a number grade (french) below the current best to not be a punter, thus the grade of punterdom has moved on a notch this year:

8c in Europe now that the highest grade is Ondra's Silence, 9c (allowing for Brexit, we get to "take back control" of our grades...)
8b in the UK now that Steve McClure has completed Rainman (9b)
Likewise, 8b in USA with the biggest grade being Jumbo Love, 9b

You can call yourself a real wad once you're on-sighting above punterdom...

Classic 8b's?
Austrian Oak (8b) must be up there?
Melancholie (8b) for North Wales
Tuppence (8b) for the SW

In reply to yh001:

Nah punters not about a grade, it's a state of mind.

Normally involves things like repeatedly messing up coiling a rope, taking at least 40 mins per pitch and dropping a racks worth of gear every trip (but still having a couple of racks worth left over).

In reply to yh001:

For me it was being able to on-site a 7 and make good progress working an 8. Of course it's not all about grades, it's experience and good movement on rock that counts. There are perfectly competent climbers operating in the 6th grade that are definitely not punters. A punter is someone that does punterish things such as set out with mud on there feet and carry unnecessarily clobber on their harness that they won't need. You are most definitely a punter if you top rope directly through belay bolts.

In reply to yh001:

I'm not a punter when I personally do not think I'm a punter. I don't give a damn about what grades others are climbing at, I climb for myself so for me I would consider myself a punter climbing in the 5's, a proficient climber in the 6's and on good form climbing 7a. I'm 70 next year so I have to be realistic in my ambitions and don't really give serious consideration to anything beyond that. I don't have the time for that commitment and if I'm honest I don't have the inclination, it's too much like hard work I know people who only climb in the 5's but I would not consider them punters. I also know people who climb in the 7's who are. Saying someone is a punter and associating that with the grade they climb is a little insulting.

Al

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:


That's faffing and being a drongo

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:



Don't you mean a bumbly?

Mick

In reply to Tru:

I feel like this is a good answer...
What's the quintessential 7a climb in the UK?

In reply to yh001:
The harder you climb the more you realise you're a punter.
I used to think id stop being a punter when I could lead.
Then it was the holy grail of E1.
Then bouldering 7a.
Then getting up a route at The Tor.
Then being able to climb something on a Moon Board.
Then E6.
I've never felt more of a punter than I do now, even though I've probably never climbed harder than now.
The truth is everyone's a punter*, might as well get used to it.

*except Ondra, he gets a pass I suppose.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Ah now that's a completely different kettle of fish.

I reckon a bumbly is someone who climbs easy routes without any ambition to climb harder routes. Climbing just for fun, taking your time and never looking remotely flustered or out of breath are all key bumbly traits.

There's always a sneaking suspicion that most of the oldee bumblies could actually onsight E4 if they thought they'd enjoy it.

In reply to yh001:

We can all bumble along. The term punter is more to do with a lack of competents.

In reply to Ally Smith:

>I reckon you need to be redpointing a number grade (french) below the current best to not be a punter, thus the grade of punterdom has moved on a notch this year:

And by total coincidence, the max RP grade on your profile is 8b+!

In reply to yh001:

When you're competent enough for the tag 'All the gear, no idea' to not apply to you.

In reply to yh001:

Punterdom is context-specific.

At Stanage, I am not a punter because I'm soloing lots of routes up to E1 and everyone else is struggling up VSs, falling off, swearing, and being from London.

At Malham (or indeed any sport crag) I am an uber-punter because I will be failing to redpoint the warm-up, using a rag-tag bundle of non-matching/long/sling quickdraws, sometimes even using double ropes (I shit you not, happens when you get rained off trad crags to some sport place or other), swearing, jibbering right 30cm above a bolt, etc, etc.

So choose your crag, get a sense of what the punter-level is there, and aim one grade higher. Probably best to avoid somewhere like Raven Tor.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Birchens is a good location to avoid feeling like a punter.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Hi Mick,



Picture a harness laden with gear skirts of chain mail clanking like a herd of cows in an alpine meadow. VS as an aspirational grade. 'Comfy' rock shoes that last a decade. Not climbing a lot. 40 minutes per pitch. Worry over the minutiae of 'equalised belays'. Don't use a grigri. Or boulder. That's bumbly, and probably me in the not too distant future

How far off do you reckon you are?
All the best, Paul

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Have you been stalking me?

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

And socks...

In reply to yh001:

A non punter grade is at least two grades above what you currently lead, non-punterdom is like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, every time you get close it moves.

In reply to yh001:

E4

V8

f7b

In reply to yh001:

If you have to ask the question then you're still a punter.

In reply to yh001:

When you are no longer making a risky bet with the climbs you attempt

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:


You have got that almost precisely the wrong way round. Punters can be competent. Bumblies are not.

In reply to Michael Hood:


Calling Birchen "Birchens" is a good indication that you're a punter

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Hi Paul,

A long time ago, when the world was still almost young, I wrote an article in OTE, 'Turoids, Bumblies, Punters, Players...' Self-evident really. Or almost. To me, what distinguished bumblies wan't so much the grade (although they usually do climb lower grades) but the mindset. 'Worry over the minutiae of 'equalised belays'' sums it up nicely. Some time ago, I met a delightful trio who all knew how to escape the system (well, from the setup in their living room) but also felt that going on a wet limestone sea-cliff with a huge swell was a good idea.

Sarah and Tony ("You don't do it like that... you do it like this!!") [you may have met them] used to describe themselves as E3 bumblies. Incorrect. They were E3 punters. Then (with rather more time on their hands) they became E6 punters. So it goes.

"Eh up, punter!" was the late Derek Hersey's standard greeting. And, of course, he was right. We're (nearly) all punters.

'Players' was my term for 'wad' (just don't like the word). Only a very few are ever players and then not for very long.

A while back, Natalie persuaded me to do an article on Bumblies. Not sure what happened to it. But, in writing it, I discovered something.

I was the king of the bumblies - honest! 'Cos, for about a year and a half, I climbed with a 100 foot length of blue polyproplyene rope with a bad bit in one end. I staunchly maintained it was dead cool. Obviously it never held a lead fall (piece of gear every thirty feet or so, back then) 'cos if it had, I certainly wouldn't be writing this.

King o' the bumblies - that's me!

Mick

In reply to Robert Durran:
What about winter I would have thought WI7 and VII are the cut off. Trad E4 seems fair as does bouldering and sport 7b ish. That said we maybe need to invent another term as being a full punter I think WI6 VI and E2 are beyond punterism as are f7a and F7a outside

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:


Taking your time? As in taking way too much time, eating your picnic lunch on stances with total disregard for following parties, wearing a huge helmet with little legs that make you look like the Mekon, sporting a grey beard, Ron Hills and ancient rock boots, carrying way too much gear for the route, big hexes clanging away (and bouldering at the wall wearing a harness with full outdoor rack), making ridiculously sexist comments like 'the girls will find this bit hard', and, finally, loudly and passionately discussing in the pub whether not the route they have done is v. Diff or hard v. Diff.

What, me? Gerrawaywith yer! I'm a cutting edge rock athlete!

It is true, though, that bumblies have big heads and little legs. Don't you think?

In reply to bouldery bits:




I am a little annoyed my ridiculous post has not attracted more dislikes.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Obviously the term is subjective but I'd have thought closer to IX, E6 (onsight), 8a

In reply to yh001:

I aspire to be a punter one day.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Doh! Guilty as charged m'Lud

In reply to yh001:

If you have to ask...

In reply to yh001:

When you can do Altar Crack (VS 4c) without any trouble:

In reply to yh001:

You need to be an all-rounder. You need to be solid at a grade a beginner would struggle on. So you take some bare-chested beanie-wearer away from his boulders and put him on a nice long run out route with sketchy gear, or on a big winter route and then you form an opinion. As Confucius once said "You one trick pony, Johnee!"

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Nah that's wad status.

In reply to yh001:
Your a punter until you stop asking If you're still one. And when people don't call you one f2f.

However, gettin' rid of n00b is easier. After 2 years of twice a week of climbing, you're no longer a n00b/newbie.

In reply to Michael Hood:


I was just about to type "if you have to ask, you'll always be a punter"

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
"I reckon a bumbly is someone who climbs easy routes without any ambition to climb harder routes. Climbing just for fun, taking your time and never looking remotely flustered or out of breath are all key bumbly traits.

There's always a sneaking suspicion that most of the oldee bumblies could actually onsight E4 if they thought they'd enjoy it."

I resemble the opening parts of that remark, up to and including 'taking your time'. But I do get flustered when my gear falls out below me, my piles get snagged in my harness or when I begin to pull the holds off. I get out of breath unwrapping a power bar. If anyone suspects I could actually onsight E4 if I was bothered, thank you, you're so kind.
Otherwise its a perfect description.

Remember this?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=832

Dave

In reply to Bulls Crack:


I did it last year and now refer to it as 'the hardest route on grit'.

In reply to Hat Dude:

Don't worry I'm a self professed albeit relatively diligent uber punter, though I must admit to having ambitions to escaping punterdom eventually...

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


A non punter would privately use Altar Crack as the benchmark for grit VS standard (which it is - or should be, obviously) whilst graciously sympathising with the bleeding crying punters at the foot of it.

In reply to bouldery bits:

>> E4

>> V8

>> f7b


Me too. suggesting that 7b is equivalent to V8 is crazy talk.

In reply to SDM:

Genuinely curious to know what you think would be an 'equivalent'

In reply to SDM:

What's a V8?

In reply to Lusk:

Crazy yank talk for 7B

In reply to SDM:

What I want to know is if you have progressed from punter/numby (that was an automatic correction of bumbly) into more respected status whatever the term, and you subsequently go into decline do you lose that status, or do you revert to the lower orders of contemporary terminology, or does a new nomenclature replace it, like > has been > old fart > bumbly old fart > moribund?

In reply to yh001: Top end grades, newsworthy stuff that could lead the free gear.

In reply to jcw:

John, maybe best to stick with elder statesman...

All best wishes,

Mick

In reply to yh001:

I would say 7b is equivalent to at most 7A (V6) in terms of difficulty and effort required.

7B (V8) would be more like 7c or 7c+.

In reply to SDM:





Not to mention E4!

In reply to full stottie:
That was brilliant, best article I've read in ages. Thanks

In reply to Mick Ward:

Thank you Mick, I rather like that.

In reply to yh001:




I am, and always have been, a punter.

A reasonably good one on occasions, but still always a punter

In reply to Mick Ward:
What on earth is a turoid?

Always thought bumblies were reasonably safe and competent low grade climbers who just climb for fun, whereas punters are not very good (at least in relative terms - so as you say you can be an E6 punter if you're surrounded by E8 climbers) and / or not very competent.

Also people often use punter in a humorous context - Bob had an epic and missed last orders, what a punter; I fell off the warm up, what a punter.

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Wouldn't equate WI7 and VII. Not that many WI7s around for a start and suspect they're a damn sight harder than a VII, at least for the average British winter climber. VII isn't that hard anyway if as punter like me can manage it

In reply to SDM:





Or that V8 / f7B (or indeed F7b, not sure which you meant?) is equivalent to E4 (which is much easier than any of the other three).

In reply to Misha:


A grockle, of course.

In reply to SDM:



Or harder - must be plenty of 8as out there with cruxes of no more than V8?

So here's another definition of a punter, not knowing the grade equivalence between different grading systems

In reply to john arran:
Well, we're all grockles on Planet Earth...

In reply to Misha:



Oh no, I'm a punter! I genuinely have very little idea how hard V8 is - if I've done any it will be unwittingly. Sounds much harder than 8a to me; are you saying it might be easier?

In reply to Misha:


Maybe V6 would be typical on an 8a. Wouldn't really expect anything harder than V7 on a short one.

I should say, I've never ticked one, but I've been on a few.

In reply to john arran:


That's one of the great things with climbing isn't it? We all have different strengths and weaknesses.
I've done a few V8's but can't get anywhere near 8a's (even though every year I think, this year I'm gonna fluke one).
On the other hand you'll get the odd person who leads 8a but can only climb E3.
Swings & Roundabouts as they say

In reply to john arran:
No, I mean there must be plenty of 8as with cruxes of V8 or less (in response to the person who said V8 is 7c - 7c+). But what do I know, both V8 and 8a are beyond me for now! So I'm definitely a punter.

In reply to jon:


Unless it's Ron of course...

In reply to Misha:


I was (reliably?) informed that if you have enough endurance then 8a might have nothing harder than V4 on it. I'm kind of counting on that........ I am absolutely certain that there are 8a's with cruxes far easier than V8.

In reply to Misha:


I think they were referring to the amount of time to tick the route or problem being similar.

If an 8a has a V6 crux, you might manage the crux in a session (meaning you can tick V6 in a session), but the route might take you several sessions.

So I think the V8 to 7c/+ comparison isn't too far off the mark.

In reply to Misha:


Yes, I was referring to overall difficulty of the route/problem as opposed to the difficulty of the crux alone.

There is a well known 9a where I understand the crux is significantly lower than V8.

In reply to john arran:


John, you're having a laugh.

I've done one confirmed V8 in my entire life. Sad or what? My guess is that, unwittingly or not, you've done dozens... and dozens.

Mick

P.S. Hint. Think of any cruxy F8a (or harder) you've done.

In reply to yh001:

It depends who you ask. If they climb harder than you, then you're a punter. If you climb harder than them, you're not a punter.

In reply to FactorXXX:


Wunter.

In reply to kristian:


I often go climbing with a lack of competents, but I'd never tell them that.

In reply to Goucho:



You sir are also having a laugh.

Offhand I can think of only five British climbers of your age who might (might!?) have better trad tick lists than yours'.

So sorry. Consider yourself plucked from the ranks of punterdum and kicked upstairs.

It's a tough life!

Mick (somebody round here's got to administer justice)

In reply to CurlyStevo:


All the eights. F8a, f8a, E8, VIII. Of these I'd guess that the Winter grade is the most accessible, but as ever it's a matter of perspective.

In reply to yh001:

When you stop carrying your shoes/gear on the outside of your rucksack.

In reply to planetmarshall:


You've missed the clincher: 8000m

In reply to GrahamD:


Although arguably that's the only one that you could effectively buy. Maybe we should specify sans fixed ropes and artificial oxygen.

In reply to planetmarshall:


The 8000m in itself isn't the clincher - its having the time, inclination and possibly money to do it as well as the other 8's

In reply to planetmarshall:

Wunter.

Or Pud.

In reply to Mick Ward:






Your flattery is kind Mick, but undeserved

My tick list spans several decades, and hardly any of them were really cutting edge routes by the time I got round to doing them.

I doubt any of my ascents fell into single figure repeat category - apart from maybe Golgotha on the Cromlech, which I actually found more serious than Right Wall, and certainly good exercise for the sphincter!

But it does go to prove what stubborn persistence, combined with being lucky enough to stay relatively injury free over a long period of time, can achieve

In reply to yh001

I really enjoyed Rubicon (7a)

In reply to Misha:


The shorter list is probably the list of 8as that have a crux of V8 or more! That would be into proper overgrown boulder territory.

I've tried a few and never done anything which "they say" (I'm terrible with grades, so dont put so much weight on my own estimations) is harder than V6.

To clarify, tried doesn't equal finished, but there's not another category of ones I've been on but couldn't do the moves on because they were >V6!

In reply to Andy Hardy:


Having just redpointed 7b+ this makes me very happy (I'm a punter really though, I'd been working the route for six months).

In reply to yh001:

OK looking at this thread I think I've cracked it.

People are split into two camps...

Camp 1 is "Oh no I'm a complete punter, I only recently flashed 8a!".

Camp 2 is "You're only a punter if you climb below... (insert your fluke redpoint grade minus one).

Long and the short of it is, if you say you're a punter you're not a punter but if you claim not to be a punter you certainly are a punter. Simple as that.

In reply to nastyned:

You're welcome

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

I think there are 2 camps.
Camp 1: bothered
Camp 2: not bothered.

All of camp 1 are punters, regardless of grade. Some of camp 2 are wads, and don't care about being thought of as punters. Some are irredeemably feeble and have given up worrying about being punters, even though they are (that's me, that is)

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:



One red one, one green...

In reply to yh001:

Punter is stubbornly refusing to learn any knot other than a figure 8 for any use
Punter is forgetting your harness for a weekend in Sheffield
Punter is walking into Tre Cima without any cams
Punter is losing your partner for 4 hours on a 10m walk in in Siurana
Punter is going to a premier crag (Makinodromo) and redpointing the easiest route available
Punter is repeatedly throwing yourself off your top aspirational routes (take your pick: Cenotaph Corner, Left Wall, Suicide Wall, Ximenes, The Sloth etc.)
Punter is anchoring yourself on rocks that are clearly not heavy enough to be weighted
Punter is falling off an E2 then deciding to solo the same E2
Punter is catching the loops on the heels of your climbing shoes on your nut key/cam lobes whilst you horribly contort yourself into a chimney
Punter is spending 30 mins sweating in an awkward rest whilst your belayer wonders what the hell is going on
Punter is not having enough rope because you forgot the second rope whilst ab-ing in to boulder ruckle, then climbing before your partner has built an anchor
Punter is wearing all your layers because its your first time on a glacier even though its still 20 degrees Celsius the becoming dehydrated to the point of hallucinations
Punter is all of these and many more
Punter is a religion
Punter is a way of life

Not being a punter is a boring day's climbing

In reply to yh001:

If you are below someone on the Pyramid of crap then don't they call you a punter?

http://eveningsends.com/nonessential-dos-donts-climbing/

In reply to Misha:

When 7c is a warm up,or when you are bolt to bolting,pulling on krabs with only one finger.

In reply to yh001:

As soon as you're comfortable using a grigri the proper way... with no hands whatsoever. You can then skin up, get the mokka pot on the go, demo moves to someone else on the adjacent route, all whilst belaying your mate on his first 8a. I have never seen a punter do this. Not once.

In reply to yh001:

When you can run up extremes using just your feet and balance, no hands..

Then you become Dawesome

For people who appear to have been around forever, used to climb 'ard stuff, but now climb moderate grades, i've adopted the term paleowad

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


I'm not sure even Ondrawad could be excused socks.

Saying 'The Peaks' instead of 'The Peak'. Epic punter fail.

In reply to Fishmate:

Perhaps, once upon a time. For me it would be de rigeur to use Peaks now just to annoy the pedants.

In reply to harold walmsley:

It may be pedantry for some, but it's just odd. No one says they are going to the Snowdons or the Fonts etc... because there is only one of each.

In reply to yh001:

I would say someone isn't a punter when they can select a route, regardless of grade and climb it in an efficient manner without cocking up with respects to gear placements, rope drag, tangles and not take hours to do it.

By respects a punter would underestimate a route and overestimate their abilities, place shonky gear, one or two of which would fall out, have horrid rope drag from the end of that traverse and probably build a crap belay and scare the bejesus out their second as they suffer their way up it. Bonus points if the second is a first time climber that's foolishly accepted to go out climbing with said punter after being duped in the pub the night before.

In reply to Dafydd Llywelyn:



Is that not just a 'climber'?



I would call that a bumbly

In reply to Dafydd Llywelyn:

By your definition an uberwad crankin' stuff like 8C on bolts or high ball boulders would be (or could be) a punter, as they most likely would cock up on the placements, perhaps on rope drag and defo on the hassle time riggin' proper anchors.