/ Ring Knot

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.
baldie - on 29 Sep 2017
What is a Ring Knot and is it strong? I have been told it is used a lot in Europe
beardy mike - on 29 Sep 2017
In reply to baldie:

Ring bend if that's what you mean? Also called a water knot. What application? I use it for tieing in as it's neat, less prone to undoing than a bowline, as neat as the bowline, unties nearly as easily as the bowline after loading it, it can be loaded in all directions without it rolling and it's strong enough!
MischaHY - on 29 Sep 2017
In reply to baldie:

All the Germans seem to use some weird variation on the bowline, or the 8.
IPPurewater on 29 Sep 2017
In reply to baldie:

We used to use this knot for tying our own slings in the days before stitched slings became common.

I've climbed extensively in Europe and never seen anyone tying in with this knot, although some Czech friends have said it used to be used there, but 25 years ago or so.
Andy Hardy on 29 Sep 2017
beardy mike - on 29 Sep 2017
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Haha - that's me that is.
BlueTotem on 29 Sep 2017
In reply to baldie:
Is there anything more you can tell us about your application? It's certainly useful for making slings out of off-the-reel nylon tape, as mentioned by IPPureWater. It's also the knot of choice for many aid climbers, using it on accessory cord or on webbing to sling things like skyhooks. I must admit using it as a tie-in knot is a new one on me though - presumably a perfectly valid choice, but to answer your question it is much more commonplace in the UK to use a figure-of-eight follow through knot finished with a stopper knot.
Post edited at 16:08
rgold - on 30 Sep 2017
In reply to baldie:

Used as a tie-in and called the "competition knot" in that context, the ring bend is an esoteric alternative to the usual knots.

The primary use of the ring bend, also called a water knot, is to tie slings from webbing. Since over-the-shoulder slings are nowadays almost always sewn, the ring bend is pretty much relegated to tying webbing slings for rappel anchors. This is a common but unfortunate application for the knot, because under cyclic loading, the ends of the webbing creep into the ring bend, and if an end creeps all the way in the knot can fall apart.

It is safer and more considerate of others who may use your anchor to tie webbing with a double fisherman's knot, although it is bulkier and not as attractive.

Lest anyone think ring bend failure from end creep is merely hypothetical, there was tragedy in the Tetons last summer in which a highly qualified IFMG-certified guide fell to his death when a tether he had constructed from webbing tied with a ring bend came apart. http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-news/gary-falk-ifmga-guide-falls-to-death-on-grand-teton .

I have personally encountered rappel anchor tied with ring bends, at least one of whose ends had already disappeared into the knot. Since it is so common to knot webbing rappel anchors with ring bends, it is essential to inspect the knots before weighting the webbing, ideally while still on rappel and so fully protected by a connection to a separate anchor.
beardy mike - on 30 Sep 2017
In reply to rgold:

I should add that although Ihave seen ringbends creeping on tape, I've not seen it on rope - I've used it for atleast 5 years and never found my knot even vaguely loose! I guess to do with the textures of tape versus rope!
baldie - on 30 Sep 2017
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Yes that's the one, really neat, but would really like to see some strength comparisons with other tie in knots
rgold - on 30 Sep 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

> I should add that although Ihave seen ringbends creeping on tape, I've not seen it on rope - I've used it for atleast 5 years and never found my knot even vaguely loose! I guess to do with the textures of tape versus rope!

Right. Textures, form, the fact that there is only one end that could creep into the knot, the fact that loading is different, and the fact that there will never be a very high number of loading cycles together make the competition knot variant a completely different situation.
Yanis Nayu - on 30 Sep 2017
In reply to baldie:

It's used to stop you shitting yourself.
wbo - on 30 Sep 2017
In reply to baldie:
If you fall on this isn't it rather hard to undo after? I'm struggling to see a huge advantage to this?
beardy mike - on 01 Oct 2017
In reply to wbo: as I said, easier than an eight, harder than a bowline. Strength wise, I would expect it to be at minimum 60% of rope strength as an overhand is 60% and it has the same knot geometry.

The advantages are that they are far less bulky than an eight, they are very tidy with the knot very close to waist height making it really easy to grab rope, the knot is perfect for ring loading as it can be loaded from all directions, it doesn't roll and self tightens when loaded.
Rock to Fakey - on 01 Oct 2017
In reply to baldie:
Some strenth comparisons, but unfortunately doesn't include the ring bend/water knot, as a tie in knot like Mike does.

Might give the ring knot a try for tieing in, looks tidy, easy to undo? Think i'd add a stopper just to be super sure. Looks easier to me for a tie in than a bowline.
Don't think i'll get into bowlines, not with yosemite finish anyway, ... too easy to get wrong + then it's deadly.
Could get the hang of bowline + stopper knot, seems to be the strongest option.
Fig 8 + stopper fine though, or no stopper + good tail, eg 10 inch, 25cm.

Not in english, but the fail loads are given.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSms2k2eV3Y
Post edited at 10:34
GrahamD - on 02 Oct 2017
In reply to baldie:

The UK is in Europe. At the moment at least. Maybe I'll need to retie my long abseil anchor sling with something else when we leave ?
Jonny on 03 Oct 2017
In reply to Rock to Fakey:

> Could get the hang of bowline + stopper knot, seems to be the strongest option.

I use the Yosemite bowline with Lee's tuck - easy to tie, very easy to undo, and has never budged an inch.

https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5534.0;attach=20006;image
scott titt - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to MischaHY:
Most of the Saxon climbers I climb with use the ring knot, maybe a relic of the wall?
Rock to Fakey - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to scott titt:

Could a ringknot be easily confused with an overhand knot, in this tieing in scenario?

But the ring knot is not a rethreaded overhand knot, as you rethread back into the knot towards the harness, so the live + dead ends exit at opposite sides of the knot!
beardy mike - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to Rock to Fakey:

There's not a huge problem if you make a mistake and tie an overhand knot though! To my mind this is a tider, more secure overhand...
AlanLittle - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to IPPurewater:

A friend of mine (German) ties in with a rethreaded overhand knot. Probably just as safe as a fig-8, and he doesn't seem to have any problem untying it. Never seen anybody else use it though.
Rock to Fakey - on 09 Oct 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

Tried the ring bend tie in yesterday, even had a surprise short fall onto it... It tightenned up a fair bit, i'm only 10 stone, wasn't especially easy to undo afterwards, felt quite tight from just 1 fall, may give it a few more goes b4 perhaps reverting to fig 8...
beardy mike - on 09 Oct 2017
In reply to Rock to Fakey:

To be honest the thing I like about it against a figure 8 is it's really really easy to show someone how to tie it because every body in the world can tie an overhand with their eyes shut, and it brings your knot up really tight to the harness which makes it super neat - just one less thing to clutter up that area. I always found the eight plus a stopperto be a super bulky knot and it hangs below your harness meaning you have to reach further to grab your rope. I guess that's pretty marginal but I somehow just prefer it...
Jonny on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Rock to Fakey:

Give the bowline variants a chance!
pec on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

> The UK is in Europe. At the moment at least. Maybe I'll need to retie my long abseil anchor sling with something else when we leave ? >

I don't think you need worry, I don't anticipate us leaving Europe anytime in the next few million years. Plate tectonics is a very slow process and the nearest plate boundary runs through Iceland which is in the wrong direction to push us away from Europe.


Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.