/ 15 grand?

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
paul mitchell - on 07 Oct 2017

Horseshoe quarry bolts replaced,£15,000.

Polished pile of mank.

The myth used to be that bolts were preferred to pegs because they were safer.Myth indeed.

I have seen so many rusted and rotating bolts.15 grand for one 80 metre stretch of hole in the ground?!

So how much will the BMC fund peg replacements?

Zero pounds,zero pence is my guess.
Post edited at 10:36
76
Robert Durran - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> Horseshoe quarry bolts replaced,£15,000.

Yes, it's outrageous. For that amount they could have fully sponsored a speed climber for a whole year.
2
springfall2008 - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> So how much will the BMC fund peg replacements?
> Zero pounds,zero pence is my guess.

IMHO pegs should either be removed or replaced with bolts. Replacing gear with potentially unsafe new gear isn't a great plan.
15
paul__in_sheffield - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

Given the number of people climbing there throughout the year, it looks like very good value. Placement methodologies have advanced and bolt placements are on the whole safe for the long-term. We can't just rely on Gary's altruism.
1poundSOCKS - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> Horseshoe quarry bolts replaced,£15,000.

Isn't that crowdfunded from donations, so not coming from BMC money?
Misha - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:
It gets used a lot though (including by many BMC members I assume) and it's on BMC land, so only fair for the BMC to get involved.

Are you suggesting pegs are safer? I've seen far more pegs in a dangerous state than bolts. Admittedly that's partly because the pegs tend to be older but the fact is they rust just as much. Also the risk of a peg pinging out of a crack is somewhat higher than the risk of a bolt pulling out.

Anyway, the Horseshoe replacements are glue in staples rather than bolts. Staples don't rotate etc.
1
idiotproof (Buxton MC) - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

Is Horseshoe a world class sport venue...no. Is it the best sport venue in the peak... possibly

I don't sport climb much if at all but drive past Horseshoe twice a day. If its not raining you can guarantee there will be at least 3-4 cars parked for Horseshoe climbing and often many many more.

Even if some of the cost wasn't crowdsourced (even I've donated 2 bolts worth) it would seem a good use of money
1
1poundSOCKS - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

> Is it the best sport venue in the peak... possibly

Cheedale, Raven Tor and Masson are all better aren't they?
remus - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> Cheedale, Raven Tor and Masson are all better aren't they?

I think most buttresses at chee dale are better than horseshoe, let alone the dale in it's entirety!
ianstevens - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to springfall2008:

> IMHO pegs should either be removed or replaced with bolts. Replacing gear with potentially unsafe new gear isn't a great plan.

I could not agree more.
8
ianstevens - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Depends on if you’re a punter or actually any good at climbing.
17
Dax H - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

Never been there and don't have clue 1 about how many bolts are involved but it would be interesting to know how many and a breakdown of the costs involved.
15k sounds like a hell of a lot.
Pekkie - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

That's a bit churlish, Paul. The BMC have taken over what was little more than a rubbish dump - it's difficult to believe now that in the 80s we used to go there because it had pegs and so was 'safe' - tidied it up and put in glue-in bolts (which won't rotate or rust). From what I understand it's always packed out - many of the users making the transition from plastic to rock. My personal opinion is that beginners moving from climbing walls would be better off leading easy routes on gritstone but, really, the Horseshoe Quarry project is making a lot of people happy so what's there not to like?
1
Mick Ward - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> So how much will the BMC fund peg replacements?

> Zero pounds,zero pence is my guess.

Paul, I don't know if you did (the once aptly named) Litany Against Fear, back in the day. An unsightly nest of three drooping pegs below the crux. I'm surprised they didn't blow away in the wind! Jim Kelly replaced 'em with a single bolt. I can't imagine Zippy wasn't in agreement. It was the right choice, albeit a rather controversial one, at the time. So good on Jim for sticking his neck over the proverbial parapet.

Now it's 25 years later. That bolt (and many others) will have needed replacing. You think we should try to get three shitty pegs back in again?

As said above, we can't just rely on Gary's altruism all the time. That's not fair.

I agree Horseshoe ain't the best crag in the world. And doubtless it's a lot more polished since we first went there together. But if it's popular and the rebolting saves a life - which it probably will - that's £15,000 well spent, in my view. So good on the BMC for getting the work done and filming that little video with Steve McClure to remind us all to be safe out there.

On a personal note, I hope all's well with you.

Mick



Offwidth - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:
All crowd funded by those using the quarry and reducing liability potential on the BMC as owner. It could only be better if they had the courage to debolt some of the shittest loosest lines. Even the much more worthy Mend our Mountains was mainly focussed on the masses, repairing damage by the same masses. Where minority venues are under threat the BMC still do what they can.
Post edited at 15:07
jimtitt - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> So how much will the BMC fund peg replacements?

> Zero pounds,zero pence is my guess.

"The view of the Technical Committee, based on earlier work and taking this report into account, is that pegs should be considered as leader placed protection in the same way as nuts and cams. In other words, only the person placing the peg can have any real idea about how much security it provides. Obviously this relies on individual experience and judgement to have any great accuracy. Pegs should not be relied upon for semi-permanent placements because of their inherent unreliability and variability. Where ethics allow, only bolts or chains are suitable for semi-permanent protection or anchors.

In the view of the Technical Committee it would be unwise for the BMC to provide pegs to be used as anchors for the reasons outlined above."
2
Bulls Crack - on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:
You could use that cash to replace all the crap pegs at New Mills couldn't you Paul? ;-)
Post edited at 19:41
Stoney Boy on 07 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

Paul, can you go and put the Peg back in Nidhogg in WCJ that fell out? Its been gone a while and myself and a few others would like to repeat.

Cheers.
open_gym - on 08 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> I have seen so many rusted and rotating bolts.15 grand for one 80 metre stretch of hole in the ground?!

How much should it have cost? I'm gathering you are unhappy with the two separate issues of

1) Is this a good use of BMC resources

2) the cost of the work

So what would have been a reasonable fee for that amount of work?
Dogwatch - on 09 Oct 2017
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

> Given the number of people climbing there throughout the year, it looks like very good value.

So raise the money from the people who use it, not general BMC funds.
6
beefy_legacy on 09 Oct 2017
In reply to Dogwatch:
That's basically what they did by crowdfunding it.
Post edited at 13:49
1
Dogwatch - on 09 Oct 2017
In reply to beefy_legacy:

Oh OK. Good. Missed that.
paul mitchell - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Dogwatch:

'Crap' pegs are just a part of trad climbing.people can decide to try the route,to back off while on it,or even fork out and replace the pegs. Trad....what was that again?Trad....?

Amazing the number of sport climbers that can get up French 6c but can't lead trad E2.That's because they never had practice playing the mind game.If they stick to bolts,that will probably always be the case.

Modern life,the easy fix of junk food climbing.We can't have danger in climbing,it's 2017!

28
Tyler - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> Amazing the number of sport climbers that can get up French 6c but can't lead trad E2.That's because they never had practice playing the mind game.

Amazing the number of people who can run a marathon in 4 hours but can't hula hoop for 30 seconds. That's because they never practice playing the hula hoop.

3
beardy mike - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> 'Crap' pegs are just a part of trad climbing.people can decide to try the route,to back off while on it,or even fork out and replace the pegs. Trad....what was that again?Trad....?

This is of course a load of tosh. The FA was completed with the benefit of new pegs. Pegs do not last that long before deteriorating into a dubious state. Of course you have to accept that risk to some degree but at what point are you taking on unnecessary, unmeasurable risk?

> Amazing the number of sport climbers that can get up French 6c but can't lead trad E2.That's because they never had practice playing the mind game.If they stick to bolts,that will probably always be the case.

This is again a total load of tosh. I don't know that many climbers who isolate their climbing in the UK. Sure in europe but most sport climbers also trad climb to a decent level. And I certainly don't know many who operate at 6c who wouldn't be able to climb E2 or at least E1. Yes there are specialists, but I reckon there are an equal number of E2 climbers who can't get up a 6c - I was one of them!

> Modern life,the easy fix of junk food climbing.We can't have danger in climbing,it's 2017!

You do like your high horse don't you? Of course you can have danger. At my local in Cheddar you can climb a bolted 8a right next to very necky E6 climbing. The choice is yours. Having been once to Horseshoe I'd say if ever there was a venue that's appropriate for bolted routes, that's it. A pretty ugly hole int he ground.
Lusk - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> We can't have danger in climbing, it's 2017!

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=617833&v=1#x8067506

You like your pegs, don't you
Robert Durran - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

> This is of course a load of tosh. The FA was completed with the benefit of new pegs. Pegs do not last that long before deteriorating into a dubious state. Of course you have to accept that risk to some degree but at what point are you taking on unnecessary, unmeasurable risk?

This doesn't make sense to me. What is the difference between necessary and unnecessary risk in climbing? What alternative are you suggesting to having old pegs in routes and which are therefore, obviously, part of trad climbing?

And obviously the risks are unmeasurable. Can you give me one example of a risk in climbing which is measurable?
7
paul mitchell - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Tyler,genius comment.

No risk in climbing is necessary.We don't have to go climbing at all....or do we?

Measurable risk? Probably a posting on UKC.

Tosh?I recommend Peter of that name.Lovely dub.

Oh yes,I love my pegs,polish 'em every day,spread my olive margarine with 'em.

A guy I met at the Torrs has top roped bolted 6C and never lead a trad route,ever.Some people are just super punters.
Quite a few of em on this thread.Have a glass of water,top up the drool.
29
beardy mike - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Necessary risk is actually participating in the activity to the level to which you want to without risking death due to circumstantial subjective dangers like crap old pegs which you have no clue as to whether they will hold or not. If you set off up a route and you can see there is little gear then you are willingly taking that risk and know the consequences - it's a necessary risk to achieve what you want to achieve. If you stand at the bottom and see a line of pegs which the route relies upon then you are taking a risk which you cannot fully assess because you simply don't know whether each of them is any good, then that's unnecessary because the pegs could be either replaced with a new peg or a bolt. In the case of Avon where the rock can be very compact and crackless pegs were in such a state of disrepair so as to make some routes incredibly dangerous unless you had a grade or two in hand. For the average climber it leads you into a situation which could be avoided by "state sponsered"/ crowdfunded equipment replacement. But that requires some level of organisation...

And you're right, measurable was a stupid term to use. I withdraw it and apologise for being a wassock ;)
La benya - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

Hi Paul,

What exactly is your issue?

The money was crowd funded and not BMC money. The total cost is therefor irrelevant unless you are one of those donating.

You yourself say the crag is crap, so it doesn't matter that its been besmirched by bolts.

Staples have been used which don't rust or spin.

genuinely confused as to what you're angry about?

Is it that the BMC haven't give you any money to put additional pugs in at millstone? have you asked them if they would be willing to fund you? you could start your own funding page to do the work?
peppermill - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

Horseshoe might be rubbish in many ways (and there was a lot of bolted crap the last time i was there, especially on the back walls) but it was my and many other climbers first taste of leading on bolts after doing a fair bit of trad.

I've had some great days there over the years- crowdfunded money well spent I'd say
Michael Gordon - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> This doesn't make sense to me. What is the difference between necessary and unnecessary risk in climbing? What alternative are you suggesting to having old pegs in routes and which are therefore, obviously, part of trad climbing?


Well, you could do without the pegs and just have removable trad gear. Obviously the feel of some routes would change a fair bit.


> And obviously the risks are unmeasurable. Can you give me one example of a risk in climbing which is measurable?

No gear below you. Risk of decking out in the event of a fall - 99.999%?

Robert Durran - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Well, you could do without the pegs and just have removable trad gear. Obviously the feel of some routes would change a fair bit.

Precisely. I don't get the fuss about decaying pegs. If you don't trust them (generally advisable), then treat like any other marginal piece of gear you might place yourself, and if that means assuming a higher grade then so be it.

> No gear below you. Risk of decking out in the event of a fall - 99.999%?



2
johncook - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Pekkie:

It would be good to know how much the commercial companies have contributed. Often there are several commercial groups there. They also tend to toprope through the fixed gear. Crap technique and poor ethics. They aught to pay!
beardy mike - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Of course the problem with that thinking is that until you are on the route you don't know whether the grade is right or not as you don't know the state of the pegs. Catch 22 innit.
Robert Durran - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

> Of course the problem with that thinking is that until you are on the route you don't know whether the grade is right or not as you don't know the state of the pegs. Catch 22 innit.

Just work on the assumption that they are bad. It surprises me anyone ever does otherwise.

2
Michael Gordon - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm sure when folk set off on a pitch mainly consisting of in-situ pegs, they aren't treating it as a solo but take some comfort from the protection, even if it's of unknown quality.
Graeme Alderson on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

You are the Merry Monk and I claim my £5
Graeme Alderson on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Duran:

The Merry Monk being one of Paul's old nicknames from the '80's ;-)
Robert Durran - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> You are the Merry Monk and I claim my £5

Completely lost me there. I googled Merry Monk and just came up with loads of pubs!
Robert Durran - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I'm sure when folk set off on a pitch mainly consisting of in-situ pegs, they aren't treating it as a solo but take some comfort from the protection, even if it's of unknown quality.

Of course. Same as if all the gear was RP's or whatever.
beardy mike - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:
That's fine for you who knows not to trust them and has the knowledge to place extra gear to protect yourself, but not so fine for the beginner VS leader who gets on any number of the pre-refit Avon VS routes which are peg protected. I get what you are saying but it is highly elitist to just say people should know better. I certainly don't want pegs replaced with bolts, hell I would rather they were removed and the grade changed to reflect the seriousness.
Post edited at 21:47
1
Robert Durran - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

> That's fine for you who knows not to trust them and has the knowledge to place extra gear to protect yourself, but not so fine for the beginner VS leader who gets on any number of the pre-refit Avon VS routes which are peg protected. I get what you are saying but it is highly elitist to just say people should know better.

Inexperience can make risk management in climbing more difficult in plenty of ways. For example, many beginners are rubbish at placing gear and therefore might be climbing with an equally false sense of security. Climbing is about taking responsibilty for yourself and if asserting that makes me elitist then I'm happy to be so.

> I certainly don't want pegs replaced with bolts, hell I would rather they were removed and the grade changed to reflect the seriousness.

I couldn't agree more. The idea that pegs should be replaced with bolts is utterly ridiculous.



Michael Gordon - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Of course. Same as if all the gear was RP's or whatever.

If it was just in-situ RPs I think everyone would treat it as a solo!
Pekkie - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to johncook:

> It would be good to know how much the commercial companies have contributed. Often there are several commercial groups there. They also tend to toprope through the fixed gear. Crap technique and poor ethics. They aught to pay!

I'd be a bit put out if organised groups were toprroping directly through belay bolts at Horshoe. This has caused major problems at Portland where this criminal practice has resulted in hangars being worn down to dangerous levels. If you see this please post pics and names on here.
Pekkie - on 10 Oct 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I'm sure when folk set off on a pitch mainly consisting of in-situ pegs, they aren't treating it as a solo but take some comfort from the protection, even if it's of unknown quality.

Yes but unlike the gear on your rack the pegs have been subject to unknown rusting and corrosion in the open air (worse at the seaside). But then an old bolt is exactly the same. I have removed a few old bolts. They looked the same but some unscrewed to reveal gleaming metal and some could be pulled out by hand. User beware.
Misha - on 11 Oct 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I'm sure when folk set off on a pitch mainly consisting of in-situ pegs, they aren't treating it as a solo but take some comfort from the protection, even if it's of unknown quality.

Exactly.

For a start, that aren't that many routes around which rely exclusively or almost exclusively on pegs. With modern gear it's often possible to fiddle something in to back up or supplement the pegs on routes which perhaps used to mostly rely on pegs (Avon and Wintour's spring to mind). Of course sometimes the crux or a long runout is protected by a peg but it's not that often that the peg is the only thing stopping you from hitting the ground, though you might end up taking a significantly longer fall.

So a pitch mostly protected by in situ pegs is going to be pretty rare for a start. It's also unlikely that all of those pegs would be in a bad state (unless it's on a sea cliff) - chances are that at least some of them will be ok. You have to evaluate the state of the pegs as you climb and err on the side of caution but, as you say, most people would take some comfort from them - otherwise why bother clipping them in the first place?

I would go so far as to say that in some situations where the peg is in a decent state and in a good placement, it's going to be pretty reliable (especially high up on a pitch where the fall factor will be low). Of course that's something to be assessed on a case by case basis and backing up with other gear is a good idea. In fact if a peg looks poor and there's a decent nut or cam available nearby, I often won't bother with the peg, particularly if quickdraws need to be rationed.
stp - on 11 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> Amazing the number of sport climbers that can get up French 6c but can't lead trad E2.That's because they never had practice playing the mind game.If they stick to bolts,that will probably always be the case.

The hardest flash of a trad route goes to sport climber Alex Megos who never trad climbs. He flashed a sparsely protected 5.14 / 8b+ route in Canada last year.
stp - on 11 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

> 'Crap' pegs are just a part of trad climbing.people can decide to try the route,to back off while on it,or even fork out and replace the pegs. Trad....what was that again?Trad....?

The whole purpose of the retro bolting was to avoid liability and minimize risk of an accident on BMC land. With that as the end goal cemented bolts are much better choice than pegs. (Are there any pegs left at Horseshoe anyway?)
baron - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to stp:

Have you seen the photo of the state he's in after flashing that route?
It's an amazing (actually amazing doesn't come close to describing it) piece of climbing but probably not applicable to 99.9% of sport or trad climbers.
Neil Williams - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to Dogwatch:

> So raise the money from the people who use it, not general BMC funds.

They did, there was a crowdfunding thing, I donated.
paul mitchell - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

If the BMC are more concerned about insurance claims than slowing the encouragement of mass bolting,then maybe they should not acquire any more crags.
7
La benya - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:
Changing the goalposts of your gripe, Paul.

They arent encouraging anything, it is like for like replacement from decades ago.
Post edited at 11:46
Tyler - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:
Yeah, look at all the bolts that have appeared in Wilton 1 since they took over.
beardy mike - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to paul mitchell:

Hey - I just read through this which might shed some light as to why the BMC don't advocate pegs as semi permanent fixtures. If you can't be bothered to read the lot, just skip to the end few paragraphs...

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/is-there-a-future-for-pegs-in-british-climbing
jimtitt - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

Err, I already quoted the last two paragraphs as the 16th post on this thread as they are the relevant ones to the question of how much the BMC are going to fund peg replacement. I doubt however Paul reading either the full document or the final paragraphs would have any influence on his current rant.
Pekkie - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to jimtitt:

Sobering reading. Did you ever come across those Peck pegs that were said to have been made from alloy left over from the TSR-2 programme and which were said to never rust or corrode? I can think of one example in situ which looks as good as the day it was walloped in!
1
beardy mike - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to jimtitt:

Sorry Jim I missed that. Engineer so reading isn't my forte ;)
jimtitt - on 12 Oct 2017
In reply to Pekkie:

> Sobering reading. Did you ever come across those Peck pegs that were said to have been made from alloy left over from the TSR-2 programme and which were said to never rust or corrode? I can think of one example in situ which looks as good as the day it was walloped in!

Sure, I bought the remaining stock up back in the day and donated them to the odd sea-cliff user. They had the unfortunate habit though of the ends falling off or splitting lengthways because of the way the plate was rolled back then, at least they were better than those appalling nuts he made!
johncook - on 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Pekkie:

In the past i have commented loudly and publicly to these groups. Maybe it is time to start naming and shaming! A few photos as well.
Does this sound like the start of a blackmail note!
johncook - on 17 Oct 2017
In reply to Pekkie:

I still have an homemade skyhook made from the wing stress panels of TSR 2 and concorde. I got rid of all the imitation leepers I made, but they were good. One of them was still in a house I sold, as a clothes line fixing, and still in use 3 years ago after 50 years and only slightly discoloured. Good stuff was developed and used by the MOD!

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