/ Legal aspects/status of road cones

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Blue Straggler - on 13 Oct 2017
Sorry for a boring thread title and probably a boring OP and thread but my mind has become annoyingly fixated on this question that just came up a few days ago.

Easiest to describe with an example, I think.

Let's say you book a skip to be put in front of your house for some building work. It will go on the road where there are no parking restrictions (and the skip is no more an obstruction than would be a legally parked car).
The skip company comes the day before they are to deliver the skip, and helpfully puts out a few traffic cones to "reserve" that bit of road. There is no official notice about this from the Highways Agency or whoever it is that can "officially" close roads, alter parking restrictions etc.

So the question, who owns those cones, who is responsible for them, and what is the legality of reserving space on a public road?

Secondary question, what if someone else sees the cones and thinks "sod that", moves them somewhere, parks his car and leaves it there for a week? He's done nothing wrong so can't be towed....
Route Adjuster on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Perhaps leave a politely written sign indicating what the cones are for, otherwise other road users may just assume it is someones attempt to 'reserve' their parking space in front of their own house and take objection.
subtle on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Blue Straggler:

If it were as your example, then unless the proper permit to leave the skip there was obtained then the car could park there legally.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-skip-permit

Was a skip permit applied for?
aln - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to subtle:

I didn't know such a thing existed. Thanks.
aln - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Blue Straggler:

He's done nothing wrong so can't be towed....

There you go
Blue Straggler - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Route Adjuster:

> Perhaps leave a politely written sign indicating what the cones are for, otherwise other road users may just assume it is someones attempt to 'reserve' their parking space in front of their own house and take objection.

Indeed, and I've often seen this.

Question came up this week as I saw cones in some parking area near my house where parking can get a bit politically fraught, but there were four of them and they were heavy ones so it was reasonable to assume that they were for a skip or something, but nobody had bothered to leave a note and I thought "there will be tears before bed time"....
Siward on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Oh for those simpler times when one could have just called the Cones Hotline...
The New NickB - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Blue Straggler:
As pointed out, if the skip is on the highway, it requires a permit. What I don't know is if that permit gives exclusive access to that section of highway or not. My feeling is that it doesn't as the permit isn't advertised.

The trick I use, not necessarily for skips, but you'll get the idea, is to park my car is the space I want reserve and move it when the skip, VIP etc arrives.
Post edited at 17:27
nufkin - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> parking can get a bit politically fraught

In a way it's curious how - in non-permit areas - it's become standard to leave what is in effect a very bulky piece of personal property in a public space. Sometimes I wonder how residential streets might feel without the cars lining both sides
pec on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to nufkin:

> In a way it's curious how - in non-permit areas - it's become standard to leave what is in effect a very bulky piece of personal property in a public space. >

Paying your road tax gives you the right to do that though.
Dax H - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to pec:

> Paying your road tax gives you the right to do that though.

I'm impressed, it's been one hour and 10 minutes and no pedant has come by yet.

To the op, I wouldn't wonder about the license. The skip company will have sorted it when they asked you if it was going on the road or your drive.
hedgepig - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to pec:

pedant here to oblige
Not road tax, Vehicle excise duty.
Dave Perry - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Blue Straggler:

From a practical point of view, when we moved house we needed to 'reserve' enough space outside the house we were moving to as we would not arrive until after the removal men. The removal men suggested contacting the local authority in question, which we did. They sent someone to the house and put out several "no parking" cones, with the council logo on, mentioned it to the neighbours and the removal men had plenty of parking with no problem.

So maybe try your local authority?
wintertree - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to nufkin:

> In a way it's curious how - in non-permit areas - it's become standard to leave what is in effect a very bulky piece of personal property in a public space. Sometimes I wonder how residential streets might feel without the cars lining both sides

Tune in in 20 years time to find out - autonomy and shared ownership enabled by autonomy is going to transform parking nightmares.

Once a year in Durham City centre all parking is removed on many streets for the miners gala from the evening before. When I lived there I used to relish walking about a city without parked cars. Transformative - far more than I had expected.
Post edited at 19:55
oldie - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to nufkin:

> ... it's become standard to leave what is in effect a very bulky piece of personal property in a public space. Sometimes I wonder how residential streets might feel without the cars lining both sides <

While that is perfectly legal my pet hate is people in urban areas who obstruct much of the width of the pavements as their large cars don't fit on their hard standing. I found them extremely difficult to pass when my wife was in a wheelchair.


garycrocker - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to pec:

No it doesn't because there's no such thing. Highways are paid for through general taxation (of which vehicle excise duty - which is what you meant - is a part of as we don't really hypothecate much in the U.K.) and council tax. And in our society you don't have a greater right to use the fruits of taxation just because you put more in. So your statement is wrong on every level I'm afraid.
garycrocker - on 13 Oct 2017
In reply to Siward:

I love it that the cones hotline existed. There was once a milk hotline too.
summo on 14 Oct 2017
In reply to Dax H:
> To the op, I wouldn't wonder about the license. The skip company will have sorted it when they asked you if it was going on the road or your drive.

In my experience of house renovation, I've not once had the skip company offer this service. It's your house, your skip hire, so they leave it to you to deal with the local council.
Dax H - on 14 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> In my experience of house renovation, I've not once had the skip company offer this service. It's your house, your skip hire, so they leave it to you to deal with the local council.

Strange, every time I have had a skip they have asked if it's to go on the road and if yes then added a licence charge.
It's been marked on the invoice as well as a separate charge.
WildCamper on 14 Oct 2017
In reply to Dax H:

I use skips a lot at work and we have to sort our own paperwork too
Lion Bakes on 14 Oct 2017
In reply to nufkin:

> In a way it's curious how - in non-permit areas - it's become standard to leave what is in effect a very bulky piece of personal property in a public space. Sometimes I wonder how residential streets might feel without the cars lining both sides

Go back to the 70's and 80's in many places and you would have seen. Those of us in our 40's and 50's had plenty of road space to play in back then. Before our space was taken by people leaving private property on the highway.
pec on 14 Oct 2017
In reply to garycrocker:
> No it doesn't because there's no such thing. Highways are paid for through general taxation (of which vehicle excise duty - which is what you meant - is a part of as we don't really hypothecate much in the U.K.) and council tax. And in our society you don't have a greater right to use the fruits of taxation just because you put more in. So your statement is wrong on every level I'm afraid. >

Road Tax, or if you insist on being precise, vehicle exise duty, even though everyone knows exactly what you mean by road tax, is a requirement to park on a public road (along with valid insurance). If your vehicle isn't SORNED it must be taxed (or should that be exised?) and then you can park it on any road you like which doesn't have restrictions, as per my original post.

Hypothecation of taxes is a complete red herring, I didn't mention anything about what taxes are used for because its irrelevant. The thread is about whether someone can park where you wanted to put a skip FFS. Why do you need to get so arsey over a simple post that certainly isn't "wrong on every level"?
Post edited at 21:21
Dax H - on 14 Oct 2017
In reply to WildCamper:

> I use skips a lot at work and we have to sort our own paperwork too

I must have been lucky then.
I have had 4 or 5 skips over the last 5 or 6 years and each time I have been asked if they are going on the road then paid an extra charge for the licence.
I normally use the big yellow skip company.
garycrocker - on 14 Oct 2017
In reply to pec:
Ha. Just read my post, I was a bit arsey but in my defence, earlier that day, before I read your comment, I'd been on my bike and had a motorist give me the road tax and rights lecture (well, she screamed at me) when I held her up for about 30 seconds so I was a bit touchy about the subject.
pec on 14 Oct 2017
In reply to garycrocker:

Apology accepted, lets not fall out over trivia
DancingOnRock - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Dax H:

The regulations applying to a commercial organisation and a private individual will be different.
Dax H - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I am talking about private. House renovation stuff. The last one was last year when our kitchen set on fire and had to be replaced.
When I have had skips for work they have always been on private land.
DancingOnRock - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Dax H:
Yes. That’s what I mean. Presumably if you have to put it in the road and you’re a commercial organisation there is a lot of extra paperwork for you to do, in addition to the paperwork the skip company has to do.
Post edited at 09:04
The New NickB - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> The regulations applying to a commercial organisation and a private individual will be different.

Not really, if it's on the road it requires a permit, if it isn't, it doesn't. Doesn't matter who is applying.
DancingOnRock - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to The New NickB:
> Not really, if it's on the road it requires a permit, if it isn't, it doesn't. Doesn't matter who is applying.

Who is responsible for the skip whilst it is in the road? Are there no additional considerations if you are a company/principal contractor under the HSE?

eg. What happens when materials other than your waste gets put in the skip?
Post edited at 10:20
Trangia on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to hedgepig:

> pedant here to oblige

> Not road tax, Vehicle excise duty.

Which begs the question "Should cyclists pay VED?"
deepsoup - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Trangia:
> Which begs the question "Should cyclists pay VED?"

Certainly. At a rate that reflects their environmental impact and the wear and tear they cause to the roads relative to cars and vans, say. So zero then.

Oh, and the large number of cyclists who already do pay VED (because they also own and drive a car), they should probably receive a bit of a refund in recognition of the favour they're doing to the rest of us when they choose to leave the car at home and travel by bike instead: reducing congestion, improving air quality, bringing down the overall cost of healthcare etc..
Dax H - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Who is responsible for the skip whilst it is in the road? Are there no additional considerations if you are a company/principal contractor under the HSE?

> eg. What happens when materials other than your waste gets put in the skip?

I suspect whoever hires the skip is the one that is responsible for it.
That would explain why whenever we have had one the builders have always insisted we arrange the skip rather than them.

I forget the exact terminology but for work we have a waste transfer certificate and a waste transport certificate, as well as the cost we have to agree to the type of waste in each bin.
I suppose the builder can skip both the cost of the licences and the paper work hassle by putting the onus back on the house holder.
Sir Chasm - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Trangia:

> Which begs the question "Should cyclists pay VED?"

No it doesn't. But, purely anecdotally, everybody i know who rides a bike does pay ved. So there's happy
DancingOnRock - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> No it doesn't. But, purely anecdotally, everybody i know who rides a bike does pay ved. So there's happy

My kids don’t. Bloody freeloaders! Think I should stop their pocket money.
Sir Chasm - on 15 Oct 2017
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> My kids don’t. Bloody freeloaders! Think I should stop their pocket money.

I don't know your kids, perhaps they're being punished enough already.

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