UKC

At Millstone Edge today I noticed that the belays around north bay area leave a lot to be desired - I ended up having to use a couple of fenceposts, which I know annoys landowners and maybe isn't that legit.

Is there a reason that there aren't stakes at the top here? It seems an ideal candidate for sticking a few in. I'm not advocating putting them in if there's a reason for their absence, but I didn't think peak ethics extended to stakes.

This post sounds like a whinge, but I'm more just curious, especially as there are plenty across the road at lawrencefield

In reply to joeramsay:

I was using the fence posts in the early eighties, so they are tried and tested

In reply to joeramsay:

I've often wondered this. Glad you've asked because I always intended to and haven't got around to it.

If there's a consensus that they're a good idea, I'd be happy to help out. I guess it partly depends on how much offence using the fence posts actually causes. They certainly are the only option above some climbs.

In reply to joeramsay:

Does the NT own the land or maybe a farmer. We have to be careful with such things. They do need something better up there though.

In reply to joeramsay:

I’ve always used the wobbly fence posts as the alternative would been a turf bollard. I would be more than happy to contribute time or money if stakes are permitted by the land owner. Must be an area rep who could ask?

In reply to Kemics:

Henry Folkard is the Peak area access rep, if you want it on the agenda for the next peak area meeting you will need to email the secretary, Becky Hammond.

In reply to joeramsay:
Hi,

There are stakes at Millstone, but as you say there are some bays without any obvious ones. I have always managed to find something, and this has been the fence posts at the far north end as I remember. All part of the fun!

In reply to spenser:

This must have been raised in the past. And the fact that there aren't any stakes would therefore say something about the folk that attended the meetings...

In reply to joeramsay:


Stakes in other places - top of Lawrencefield for example. Quarry top outs are often rubbish and stakes have been used all over the country when there is no rock or trees available.

I imagine the main reason there aren't any there is because no one has put any there. I've been involved in climbing for decades and have no idea where you would get a suitable stake from - the best ones have a cross section welded to them to lower the chance of a sling coming off. How much do they cost? Could easily be 20, 30 quid? Then you need to carry it there along with a sledge hammer, then you would be worrying that someone saying they represent the landowner would come along and say "don't do that". Or perhaps some random climber objects for some ethical point that no one else really understands but seems to get that chap very hot under the collar. Then you would worry what happens if in a decade it falls out, kills someone and their family decide they want to sue you. Plus of course you would get called all sorts nasty names here on UKC for destroying the soul of the Great British trad ethic, or some such, mainly by people who either haven't climbed at Millstone for twenty years and perhaps have only climbed twice anywhere in the last ten, or live at the other end of the country and never go to Millstone. Etc. Etc.

In reply to TobyA:
Not a bad try at a rant but too many facts and too little vitriol -

Is there an ethical objection to stakes? I can't imagine one but you never know

In reply to joeramsay:

I expect it's exactly because of the presence of the fence that there aren't any stakes. Somewhere like lawrencefield where it's just open land above NEEDS something to belay off, and the easiest option is a stake, but the easiest option at millstone is the fence, and as long as that remains safe enough for the majority, who is going to carry stakes up for the sake of convenience?

In reply to wbo:

I'm just too easy going and cuddly to do vitriol.

I've thought about replacing some of the ab tat at Stoney Middleton - some of them look very old, and have huge amounts of messy tat making them up. I've got some off cuts of rope that I don't need and even some solid abseil rings (thought they would be small, light alloy ones to leave behind on mtn routes, turned out to be big, heavy solid one that will last forever!), but besides general apathy, work stress, family stress, lack of people wanting to go to Stoney there are similar factors as I outlined to people unilaterally placing stakes that have kept me from going and doing it.

I think if someone did go and put some quality stakes in the end Millstone unilaterally, no one would notice to object and you'd just get karmic whispered thanks from climbers pulling over the top and finding a nice stout couple of stakes there. But this being the UK, who is going to do it?

In reply to TobyA:

I thought your cost estimate sounded pretty reasonable, until I googled...
http://www.abaris.co.uk/prod/anchors/Ground-Tee-stake-Anchor.htm

Over a hundred quid! Phenomenal.

In reply to Luke90:

Cap the top with concrete and put dobbing great ring bolts in. Then tastefully put turf over the top.

Alternatively use the fence posts are carry some warthogs.

Exactly the same could be said for Castle Naze.

(Half serious solution to belaying issues at both crags, before any blood vessels burst)

In reply to Luke90:

Suddenly JimTitt sounds even more sensible with his suggestion of 1inch galvanised steel pipe, costs about £5 for a meter length

In reply to Kemics:

Actually it´ s not really what I´ d suggest. The best, made to a certification standard and readily available product is the time-honoured buck-rake tine, they last for decades even the way farmers treat them, are good-quality steel and cost about 15quid a pop new. Either weld something on top if you´ve scavenged some discarded ones or buy the required nut if you´ re buying new.
If the ground is soft then scaffolders pot-legs are the answer.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Vampires?

In reply to joeramsay:

If my memory serves me well, the belaying off the fence was part of a bmc peak area meeting when th NT were talking about what they were going to do about the path. This included a discussion on whether to dispense with the fence or move it closer to the edge. I am sure someone will provide more info re this meeting.

IIRC the stake in Keyhole Cave caused a big fuss a couple or few years back and the replacement was removed...

In reply to wbo:

Safer and more accessible seems to be a frequent request

In reply to joeramsay:
Like you, I guess I'd always assumed the local community wouldn't allow it, but hadn't really asked why. There are definitely a few routes on there that are bombproof rock for the bottom 95%, followed by a pretty sketchy top-out right where you need an anchor. I also think some of those fence posts are a bit more upright than others at this point. If there's anyone who doesn't like the idea, I wouldn't do it, but it sounds like the local climbing community might not hate the suggestion. If it turns out to be a goer, mail me and I'll see if I can help.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I have only been to two peak area meetings so don't know the crowd who attend that well, however they all seem to be fairly reasonable people from what I've seen, not stuck in the mud "It weren't that way in my day" types.

In reply to Luke90:
I have seen cheap stakes at Anchor supplies in Ripley (& Nottingham) which is a legendary place if you are not yet acquainted with the finest vendor of ex military tut in the Midlands.

https://www.anchorsupplies.com/

But not online it appears, they are in the... ahem... 'special interest collect in person' department, under the counter stuff, next to the NBC suits, armoured cars and 1982 maps of East Germany.

With regard to the OP, If I recall correctly, at least one person has tried to place stakes at Millstone. I believe that he was thwarted by thin topsoil (also the 'soil' was very gritty and weakly bonded) and he deemed placements unsafe. Certainly I have placed ground anchors at Millstone (mainly for sheep rescues from Embankment ledges) in the past and struck impenetrable rock at very shallow depths, though this might not be true for the whole crag. This all leads me to conclude that the reason stakes have never appeared here is less to do with ethics and more with practicality, though I could well be wrong on that - (Ethics - jutht thouth of Thoffolk)

In reply to joeramsay:


I don't have the right map to hand to double check the boundary, but I'm fairly sure the land is owned by Sheffield City Council. Currently it is managed by the National Trust. Neither are 'annoyed' by our use of the fence for belays, although I'm sure they'd be keen to point out it was not intended for such and may not be strong enough.

So don't have any qualms about using it. Do take care to assess the strength of any you use carefully and, I'd suggest, use two and rig slings at the base to reduce any leverage.

As John Cook stated above, the NT have considered removing the fence, although they had concerns that a) that might be a safety issue for walkers on top, and b) it might cause climbers problems. Adding stakes would compound a) with a trip hazard. They are of course aware that none of the many other grit crags in the area have fences along the top.

I don't have any particular issue with stakes on ethical grounds but have climbed at Millstone for 20+ years and never felt the need for them. Obviously if the fence goes that would change.

In reply to joeramsay:
Hefty stakes ,good idea.I was at another quarry,accidentally did a new route and assumed there would be something,as there was a route in the guide next to the one I had just done.Not a sausage.I had a 7 inch piton I use as a nut key,so I hammered that in to the grass with a rock,and then abbed off that and off Martin Koscis taking 50% of the weight.

Some may say that an elephant could safely ab off Martin,but that's another matter.

Stakes would not be a trip hazard if set well back from the top of the crag.They could be painted white to make them visible.

In reply to Kemics:


Please don't use 1" pipe!!!!!
I recently got to the top of a route at Hurlstone Point with this as the only belay; for some daft reason I decided to stick my finger in the top to feel how corroded it felt inside. It didn't feel too bad, then I tried to extract my digit which proved very difficult due to the inside burr caused by bashing in the stake. I had what felt like several minutes of panic anticipating an embarassing rescue.

In reply to Hat Dude:

At least it was only your finger

In reply to Michael Hood:


No chance of that getting stuck, it was a cold day!

In reply to paul mitchell:

Re trip hazard: they could perhaps be placed close enough to fence/fence post for it to be unlikely anyone would walk into them (assuming that didn't compromise their strength).

In reply to joeramsay:

The fence posts do the job so what's the problem?