UKC

Dig for victory

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 Pete Pozman 15 Oct 2017
Apparently Chris Grayling says British farmers can grow more food in the event of a bad Brexit. I think we could all help by keeping calm and growing cress on blotting paper. It sprouts really quickly and we can survive on it until our gallant farmers have time to remodel the whole of Britain's agriculture.
That will only take a couple of months if we just get on with getting the job done.
7
 Tyler 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

You are doing him a bit of disservice as you missed out half of the good news, he was at pains to point out that farmers in Europe would also suffer not just consumers in the UK.
1
 arch 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Surely more home grown food is a good thing ??
2
 stevieb 15 Oct 2017
In reply to arch:

Growing more food in this country, without large numbers of immigrant workers and without large subsidies to the land owners would be a wonderful thing. Hopefully a member of the cabinet making a case for a policy decision is actually describing a plan, rather than an aspiration.
2
 HardenClimber 15 Oct 2017
In reply to stevieb:

Member of the cabinet making a plan in relation to Brexit?
I don't think so.
They are still campaigning for the referendum.
4
 Rog Wilko 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Who's going to harvest it all?
OP Pete Pozman 15 Oct 2017
In reply to stevieb:

I think you'll find it's an aspiration. A plan grounded in reality would make a nice change.
1
OP Pete Pozman 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Rog Wilko:

> Who's going to harvest it all?

I usually harvest my own with a pair of scissors. One crop makes a nice little sandwich.
1
 Tyler 15 Oct 2017
In reply to arch:

> Surely more home grown food is a good thing ??

It is, why don't we do it now? Presumably what few environmental concerns we have to protect the countryside will need to be removed for more intensive agri business. Possibly a good time to buy shares in Monsanto
1
 Big Ger 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Tyler:

> It is, why don't we do it now?

It's time consuming, dirty work, with no guarantee of success, and also eating seasonal veg can be monotonous.

Supermarkets are cheap, convenient, clean and give far more variety.

Having said that, I'm looking forward to being productive on the huge allotment I'm renting off my farmer mate when I return to Blighty.
2
 Tyler 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Big Ger:
> It's time consuming, dirty work, with no guarantee of success, and also eating seasonal veg can be monotonous.

> Supermarkets are cheap, convenient, clean and give far more variety.
I didn't mean why we as individuals don't do it but why we don't, as a country do it. Surely even someone as out of touch as a Tory minister isn't suggesting we all grow our own?
Post edited at 23:30
2
pasbury 15 Oct 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Chris Grayling is a f*cking knob.
2
 birdie num num 16 Oct 2017
In reply to pasbury:

One should remember that a f*cking knob is a thing that is enthusiastically engaged in carrying out it's proper purpose
In reply to Tyler:

> he was at pains to point out that farmers in Europe would also suffer

Who cares about European farmers? They're foreigners. The whole point of Brexit is to stop having to care about foreigners.

Isn't it...?

On the other hand, if we can give Johnny Foreigner Farmer a bloody nose, it's worth all of us subsisting off gruel for the next thirty years. Hoorah for Boris!
5
 SenzuBean 16 Oct 2017
In reply to birdie num num:

> One should remember that a f*cking knob is a thing that is enthusiastically engorged in carrying out it's proper purpose

fixed your boo-boo
1
Jim C 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Rog Wilko:

> Who's going to harvest it all?

Well the unemployed would be a good place to look for labour.

And as well as our own unemployed, apparently there are 20% of migrants that are unemployed, so there should be no shortage of labour.
8
Jim C 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Tyler:
> I didn't mean why we as individuals don't do it but why we don't, as a country do it. Surely even someone as out of touch as a Tory minister isn't suggesting we all grow our own?

I do know that our council is under constant pressure to allocate more land to meet the demand for allotments( to grow fruit and veg mostly I believe)
Post edited at 03:02
 ian caton 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:
Surely he is completely wrong.

One genuine criticism of the EU is high food prices.

Once we are open to the world, UK farming will struggle to compete as it adjusts to reduced subsidies and lower prices.
Post edited at 07:27
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:
> Surely he is completely wrong.
> One genuine criticism of the EU is high food prices.

Food in the UK is comparatively cheap, in part because the buying power of the big supermarkets driving down price.

Next it's because of EU, not in spite of, 40% of the Eu budget goes on CAP payments. It was previously even higher. The EU taxpayer is indirectly paying for lower shop prices through taxation, with a large number of middlemen/admin systems taking a share first.

Go shopping in Norway and see what food really costs, even then the Norwegians have their own subsidy system for their farmers.

> Once we are open to the world, UK farming will struggle to compete as it adjusts to reduced subsidies and lower prices.

UK farming will struggle because people don't eat seasonally anymore. They want a cut of prime meat that was once a Sunday treat, every day. The country will still have to import and it'll cost, but that cost is rising anyway. As standards of living rise in China, India etc.. The demand for more costly and varied food increases and global prices creep up. This of course will all be blamed on Brexit, but it was happening before and will continue.

Most people could grow food at home, but they've sacrificed that space for parking their 2nd or 3rd car on, or perhaps some decking with a pretty bbq that gets used twice a year.
Post edited at 07:43
5
 Shani 16 Oct 2017
In reply to stevieb:
> Growing more food in this country, without large numbers of immigrant workers and without large subsidies to the land owners would be a wonderful thing.

As many Tories are large landowners, it's only a matter of time before one of them faced with this problem, suggests that prisoners be forced to work on farms.
Post edited at 07:55
4
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Shani:

> As many Tories are large landowners, it's only a matter of time before one of them faced with this problem, suggests that prisoners be forced to work on farms.

Think you have hit on something there. Prison farms. Farming is a skill that they could leave with, but even just growing food that they or others then eat has it's physical and mental rewards.

Failing that, dawn raids for momentum members, stick em on coaches.... tatty picking week soon.
2
 jkarran 16 Oct 2017
In reply to arch:

> Surely more home grown food is a good thing ??

Why?

Not all food grows equally well here (vs say southern Europe) with equal inputs of fertilisers, pesticides and fossil energy. There are very good reasons we cooperate and trade. In the febrile them and us atmosphere created over the last couple of years that idea, the one which has made us wealthy and influential over centuries seems to be rapidly getting lost.

One could equally say 'surely less intensive agriculture, better conservation of soil and wildlife is a good thing'. If stuff grows better elsewhere then set up (and maintain) stable mutually beneficial relationships with neighbours then grow it elsewhere and focus on what we can do well.
jk
Post edited at 09:00
3
 ian caton 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> Food in the UK is comparatively cheap, in part because the buying power of the big supermarkets driving down price.

No it's not, not in comparison to world prices and certainly not even in comparison to Germany.. Think Brazil beef, new Zealand lamb, Canadian grain etc etc.

> Next it's because of EU, not in spite of, 40% of the Eu budget goes on CAP payments. It was previously even higher. The EU taxpayer is indirectly paying for lower shop prices through taxation, with a large number of middlemen/admin systems taking a share first.

CAP increases food prices directly through tariffs and indirectly through taxation to pay for the subsidies. CAP payments do not reduce food prices, it is money given to farmers, that's all.







 wercat 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:
elederly farms too, so poor and elderly can be empowered to feed themselves, communally
Post edited at 09:09
1
 Sir Chasm 16 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:

Hopefully we can plant some money trees on our brexit farms https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/15/britai...
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Jim C:

> I do know that our council is under constant pressure to allocate more land to meet the demand for allotments( to grow fruit and veg mostly I believe)

You're lucky, ours is about to hand over 30 to 60 acres of greenbelt Taylor Wimpey for development who bought it from a farmer just before the consultation on the valley development began in earnest but just after the private consultants were appointed by the council.
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Who cares about European farmers? They're foreigners. The whole point of Brexit is to stop having to care about foreigners.

> Isn't it...?

> On the other hand, if we can give Johnny Foreigner Farmer a bloody nose, it's worth all of us subsisting off gruel for the next thirty years. Hoorah for Boris!

Exactly this, the Brexit arguments have now gone from "it'll be great" to " We always said it would be shit but it's going to bring down the EU as well so it's a good thing".
1
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Jim C:

> Well the unemployed would be a good place to look for labour.
why don't they do that now?
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:
> No it's not, not in comparison to world prices and certainly not even in comparison to Germany.. Think Brazil beef, new Zealand lamb, Canadian grain etc etc.

But that is cherry picking the lowest price globally, for each product. Based on ideal climate, lowest labour costs, perfect soil... put together your meal with the cheapest meat, grains and veg in the world, they won't even come from the same continent.

Look at UK and European food prices over the past 50 years, as a proportion of income, they have never been lower.

> CAP increases food prices directly through tariffs and indirectly through taxation to pay for the subsidies. CAP payments do not reduce food prices, it is money given to farmers, that's all.

They do reduce food prices. Because supermarkets know they can push the price down. Remove CAP and half the farms in Europe would be bankrupt if supermarket prices never increased in less than 5 years.
Post edited at 10:03
1
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to wercat:

> elederly farms too, so poor and elderly can be empowered to feed themselves, communally

They'd need to after 5years of Corbyn, they can sing red flag to cheer themselves up. If they don't like it their glorious leader will deselect them from society.
6
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Tyler:

> why don't they do that now?

Because they wouldn't know a carrot from a parsnip?
 stevieb 16 Oct 2017
In reply to jkarran:

There may be good reasons to import food from Spain, but is there really a strong argument for large scale imports from the Netherlands?
They have most of the same problems that we have; high population density, high wage costs, northern latitude; but are vast producers and exporters of food, which is supposedly sustainable. Not sure that it's what Chris Grayling had in mind, but no reason why we shouldn't have 20 square miles of high tech greenhouses in Northamptonshire. It just needs government planning rather than government soundbites
 stevieb 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Shani:

It's a bit of a tangent, but despite being a bleeding heart liberal, I would have no problem at all with prisoners being expected to work much more (though maybe not for the friends and associates of the home secretary). It should benefit the prisoners and the system.
 jkarran 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> They'd need to after 5years of Corbyn, they can sing red flag to cheer themselves up. If they don't like it their glorious leader will deselect them from society.

If you haven't got a better argument against Corbyn than 'he's basically Stalin in a rumpled suit' then I'd give up. It's just plain embarrassing. Even I can do better than that and I broadly support him.
jk
4
 jkarran 16 Oct 2017
In reply to stevieb:

> It's a bit of a tangent, but despite being a bleeding heart liberal, I would have no problem at all with prisoners being expected to work much more (though maybe not for the friends and associates of the home secretary). It should benefit the prisoners and the system.

It's hard to get right, very easy to end up reinstating slavery by the back door as appears to have happened in the US.
jk
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> If you haven't got a better argument against Corbyn than 'he's basically Stalin in a rumpled suit' then I'd give up. It's just plain embarrassing. Even I can do better than that and I broadly support him.

Sorry forgot. Never diss Corbyn, even if it's in jest, tongue in cheek, sarcasm etc.. guess that's me on the watch list if he ever gains power.

8
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to stevieb:

> It's a bit of a tangent, but despite being a bleeding heart liberal, I would have no problem at all with prisoners being expected to work much more (though maybe not for the friends and associates of the home secretary). It should benefit the prisoners and the system.

Would agree, prisoners need rehabilitating, training, not just punishing. It won't be free, but neither is the current model, when you consider the volume of repeater customers.
 Shani 16 Oct 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> If you haven't got a better argument against Corbyn than 'he's basically Stalin in a rumpled suit' then I'd give up. It's just plain embarrassing. Even I can do better than that and I broadly support him.

Come on JK, don't you recall when Stalin suggested we renationalise natural monopolies like water and rail? Or when Stalin famously suggested he'd like to enter the energy market as a competitor in a bid to drive competition?

1
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> If you haven't got a better argument against Corbyn than 'he's basically Stalin in a rumpled suit' ...

https://www.google.se/search?q=corbyn+sings+red+flag&client=ms-android-...

I wasn't entirely stretching the realms of possibility. Admittedly with that quality of singing they would have be on a train east in Stalin's day.

1
 jkarran 16 Oct 2017
In reply to stevieb:

> There may be good reasons to import food from Spain, but is there really a strong argument for large scale imports from the Netherlands?

If say their greenhouses are lit and heated renewably where ours aren't then that would be a sound technical reason. Also they're basically our nearest neighbours, closer than some British regions are to our major population centers so it makes sense from a transport miles perspective.

> Not sure that it's what Chris Grayling had in mind, but no reason why we shouldn't have 20 square miles of high tech greenhouses in Northamptonshire. It just needs government planning rather than government soundbites

Possibly not but does anyone apart from big-agri-corp-plc and a few farmers looking to their retirement funds actually want that? I doubt it'd actually prove popular on the ground.
jk
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Shani:

> Come on JK, don't you recall when Stalin suggested we renationalise natural monopolies like water and rail? Or when Stalin famously suggested he'd like to enter the energy market as a competitor in a bid to drive competition?

Don't think Stalin suggested anything, he commanded. A bit like when a certain person said he'd force buy utilities at below their share value etc..
1
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> Possibly not but does anyone apart from big-agri-corp-plc and a few farmers looking to their retirement funds actually want that? I doubt it'd actually prove popular on the ground.

Nimby? Don't mind buying the out of season produce, from gas heated green houses... out of sight out of mind.. Plus not on the uk's industrial carbon foot print, which is a bonus for any government chasing emmision targets.

1
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> Don't think Stalin suggested anything, he commanded. A bit like when a certain person said he'd force buy utilities at below their share value etc..

....or cap the price at which private utility comapnies can charge for their goods. Outrageous!
 jkarran 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

Perhaps you can find me a youtube clip of Corbyn suggesting individuals should be 'deselected from society'*. I take that to be a euphemism for executed in an act of political violence but do enjoy jumping through hoops to prove you meant something totally different by it and that I'm obviously just another reactionary red stifling free speech.

*the more usual criticism of him and one IIRC you've not been shy of making occasionally is that he isn't willing enough to endorse political violence when done overseas with laser guided bombs.
jk
 Shani 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:
> Don't think Stalin suggested anything, he commanded. A bit like when a certain person said he'd force buy utilities at below their share value etc..

Commanded - what, you mean like May's proposed cap on the power companies?

What is wrong with a forced purchase of utilities at their purchase price (particulalry if the markets are not truly free)?
Post edited at 11:09
 jkarran 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> Nimby?

Me? I'm sure I am guilty of nimbyism like most others but I try to at least consider my position before opposing change and I grow quite a bit of my own food so where do I fit the spectrum of the wider British population which does tend to exhibit a fair degree of reactionary nimbyism.

> Don't mind buying the out of season produce, from gas heated green houses... out of sight out of mind.. Plus not on the uk's industrial carbon foot print, which is a bonus for any government chasing emmision targets.

Which bit of "if they're renewably heated" implies fossil gas heated? I was making a theoretical argument for why buying import food could make sense, not justifying the current state of our food supply.
jk
 Andy Hardy 16 Oct 2017
In reply to stevieb:

> It's a bit of a tangent, but despite being a bleeding heart liberal, I would have no problem at all with prisoners being expected to work much more (though maybe not for the friends and associates of the home secretary). It should benefit the prisoners and the system.

Would you think like that if you were laid off because HMP Pentonville were supplying the labour required for your job, for free?
 stevieb 16 Oct 2017
In reply to jkarran:

I think the main sustainability claims relate to low use of water and insecticides, but big greenhouses might be suitable businesses for cheap excess electricity from wind farms.
We currently import from massive Dutch greenhouses and whole counties of agritunnels in Spain, so having the equivalent closer to home seems reasonable.
 pavelk 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

Food in UK is not cheap and nor in the rest of Europe. The price is high, besides, because food is burned and poured into fuel tanks (and it´ s supposed to save the planet...)
2
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:
> Nimby? Don't mind buying the out of season produce, from gas heated green houses... out of sight out of mind.. Plus not on the uk's industrial carbon foot print, which is a bonus for any government chasing emmision targets.

There probably is a case for reviewing where we get our food from and whether what we pay for it is realistic, however, you cannot try to pretend that what Grayling is suggesting would be the result of anything other than a huge f*ck up by the govt in not making a deal with the EU. This is no clear eyed view on how to address issues with food resourcing in the UK but a complete and utter, unworkable scheme dreamt up by desperate bullshitters who's lies are being exposed. If you think a sudden need to boost agri production by ~40% (or more we likely import from further afield than the EU) will be good for the environment then you are an idiot - something I know you aren't.

We will either have less variety and higher prices for food or we will have our own farmers unmined by cheap imports from countries with lower environmental and animal welfare standards. If the former then one of your stated hopes (farmers being paid a fairer price for their output) will be met but given that the vast majority of farmers own huge amounts of (largely inherited) capital (land prices have rocketed over the last few decades) they would be the least of my concerns
Post edited at 11:41
1
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Tyler:

I not once said I agreed with grayling. What I was arguing with was your view on food prices and the massive influence of CAP on the whole sector.

If you want to debate, it would seem polite not to misquote.
3
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to pavelk:

> Food in UK is not cheap and nor in the rest of Europe. The price is high, besides, because food is burned and poured into fuel tanks (and it´ s supposed to save the planet...)

Care to link anything that food costs more in the uk proportionally than before, 10, 20, 30, 40 yrs ago?
2
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> I not once said I agreed with grayling. What I was arguing with was your view on food prices and the massive influence of CAP on the whole sector.
I think you've confused me with someone else, I've not mentioned CAP and my only comments on pricing have been on my last comment. However, if you disagree with any points in my last post feel free to respond to them.

> If you want to debate, it would seem polite not to misquote.
I've not quoted you directly but I have referenced your oft stated position that we don't in the UK pay enough for food and that prices are artificially low at the checkout to the detriment of farmers. Is this not your view? If not, apologies for misunderstanding.
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> Which bit of "if they're renewably heated" implies fossil gas heated?

I was referring to the Netherlands.



 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Shani:

> What is wrong with a forced purchase of utilities at their purchase price (particulalry if the markets are not truly free)?

He said below their value, not market value or purchase price.
1
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Tyler:

> I think you've confused me with someone else, I've not mentioned CAP and my only comments on pricing have been on my last comment. However, if you disagree with any points in my last post feel free to respond to them.

Apologies it was Ian canton who i was discussing cap with.

> I've not quoted you directly but I have referenced your oft stated position that we don't in the UK pay enough for food and that prices are artificially low at the checkout to the detriment of farmers. Is this not your view? If not, apologies for misunderstanding.

The market needs to change anyway. It's not sustainable. The UK isn't close to self sufficient food wise. It eats too much of the wrong stuff. Farmer struggle to make a living. CAP skews the market.

It needs reform and if it costs more to buy quality produce, grown or reared more locally, where more UK workers receive a higher wage and better environmental standards.. . Then I personally think higher prices are worth paying.

Part of problems is people have now become accustomed to low prices and there is limited national loyalty over food sources.
1
 jkarran 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> The market needs to change anyway. It's not sustainable. The UK isn't close to self sufficient food wise. It eats too much of the wrong stuff. Farmer struggle to make a living. CAP skews the market.

We eat what we want and can afford, that's capitalism at work. CAP is supposed to skew the market. You can't argue for and against free markets in the same breath.

> It needs reform and if it costs more to buy quality produce, grown or reared more locally, where more UK workers receive a higher wage and better environmental standards.. . Then I personally think higher prices are worth paying.

Fine but that's not how markets work and brexit as it's being implemented is nothing if not a push from the right to deregulate the marketplace. What will actually happen is we the great unwashed won't 'buy British', we'll buy cheap so domestic standards will have be cut to increase profitibility or farmers will go bust or the hated subsidy system will simply be relaunched largely unchanged with a new British name. Worthwhile?

> Part of problems is people have now become accustomed to low prices and there is limited national loyalty over food sources.

Why should there be 'national loyalty', why is that good in and of itself? We live in a wider world than our own often quite artificial little nations.
jk
4
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> The market needs to change anyway. It's not sustainable. The UK isn't close to self sufficient food wise. It eats too much of the wrong stuff. Farmer struggle to make a living. CAP skews the market.

> It needs reform and if it costs more to buy quality produce, grown or reared more locally, where more UK workers receive a higher wage and better environmental standards.. . Then I personally think higher prices are worth paying.

> Part of problems is people have now become accustomed to low prices and there is limited national loyalty over food sources

That may we'll be the case and had it been the ogvts stated position to try and fix the market accordingly then they'd have a defensible position, as it is this is the are just now saying any old shit because the economic consequences of Brexit are becoming more apparent and they are forced into more and more ludicrous pronouncements to defend it.

I'm also prepared to accept that just because something is difficult or expensive is not of itself reason not to do it but the perceived non-economic benefits of Brexit (taking back control, sticking it to the elites, reducing immigration) are now also shown to be bollocks as well.

1
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> Why should there be 'national loyalty', why is that good in and of itself? We live in a wider world than our own often quite artificial little nations.

Because it keeps local people in a job, because those people and their employers pay tax into the treasury. Etc.. a country that is massive net importer of goods isn t going to do very well?
It's a slow but sure spiral down.

Like the classic bloke in the pub, complaining about the lack of British jobs whilst drinking his Danish beer, then going home in a car wasn't even assembled in the UK, to watch his subscription channel of an overseas company, on a tv he bought online from another overseas based company.

Everyone can't be employed in the public sector, money has to reach the treasury from somewhere.

1
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Tyler:

I don't think it is just the elites, but they do have a level arrogance. See what they make of Austria's election result, folk in Europe simply aren't happy and are voting for change, because the Eu is unwilling to steer the Eu on a more gentle merging course. They are obsessed with squeezing everyone together fast track. It will end in tears.
3
 jkarran 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> Because it keeps local people in a job, because those people and their employers pay tax into the treasury. Etc.. a country that is massive net importer of goods isn t going to do very well?
> It's a slow but sure spiral down.

I'd argue demanding 'brand loyalty' is a sure sign we are already way down the spiral, it's a failure to recognise the economic realities then either alter them through policy/subsidy (as CAP does). Accepting we could reasonably and to to our benefit (as a nation and species) import a lot of our food does not mean I accept we should stop exporting, indeed this is one of the reasons I vehemently oppose the utter stupidity of leaving the EU, single market and customs union.

What do I get from brexit and when does it stop making me poorer?

> Like the classic bloke in the pub, complaining about the lack of British jobs whilst drinking his Danish beer, then going home in a car wasn't even assembled in the UK, to watch his subscription channel of an overseas company, on a tv he bought online from another overseas based company.

Not everyone sees the world as a set of little bunkers in which the already comfortable would do better were they sealed tighter, life isn't a zero sum game.

> Everyone can't be employed in the public sector, money has to reach the treasury from somewhere.

Of course. Where have I ever suggested otherwise? Indeed it's you not me who voted to wreck by far and away the most important trading relationship Britain has and all for what?
jk
3
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> I don't think it is just the elites, but they do have a level arrogance. See what they make of Austria's election result, folk in Europe simply aren't happy and are voting for change, because the Eu is unwilling to steer the Eu on a more gentle merging course. They are obsessed with squeezing everyone together fast track. It will end in tears.

Every time you are asked about the benefits of Brexit you start banging on about the problems with the EU. We get that it's not perfect but no institution is, we get that it has problems to deal with but counties voting in right wing wankers is not something that the EU is responsible for nor something that goes away just because we are no longer in the EU. Sure, right wing parties in the EU use it as a lightening rod for their nationalism and anti-minority agenda but if it wasn't there they'd probably be a bit more direct in finding someone to scape goat for their perceived grievances.

In the case of what we are talking about here leaving the EU will, undoubtedly, lead to adopting lighter environmental controls in the UK and worse animal welfare. In addition it will either lead to higher prices for consumers as we get protectionist or issues for our farmers of we open borders. So, without banging on about Italian banking crisis, or Spanish constitutional crisis with Catalynia or how badly the Greeks were treated (why do the Brexitieers care so much about the Greeks when they hate the rest of Europe?) where's the upside?
3
 Tyler 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> Because it keeps local people in a job, because those people and their employers pay tax into the treasury. Etc.. a country that is massive net importer of goods isn t going to do very well?

> It's a slow but sure spiral down.

> Like the classic bloke in the pub, complaining about the lack of British jobs whilst drinking his Danish beer, then going home in a car wasn't even assembled in the UK, to watch his subscription channel of an overseas company, on a tv he bought online from another overseas based company.
So how is Brexit going to fix that, by making alternatives too expensive to buy? If we do that who else are we going to sell to or are you assuming we can raise tariffs on imports without anyone reciprocating?

2
 ian caton 16 Oct 2017
In reply to stevieb:

We often had prisoners working on the farm from the local open prison.
 ian caton 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:
> But that is cherry picking the lowest price globally, for each product. Based on ideal climate, lowest labour costs, perfect soil... put together your meal with the cheapest meat, grains and veg in the world, they won't even come from the same continent.

No. Agricultural produce is one of the most undifferentiated products in the world. The world price is the world price plus transport.

> Look at UK and European food prices over the past 50 years, as a proportion of income, they have never been lower.

That is irrelevant. Prices are higher with CAP but supply more reliable.

> They do reduce food prices. Because supermarkets know they can push the price down. Remove CAP and half the farms in Europe would be bankrupt if supermarket prices never increased in less than 5 years.

Supermarkets have nothing to do with CAP. You might be right re bankruptcy, that proves my point.

Ian Caton BSc (Hons) Agricultural Economics
Post edited at 15:27
3
 pavelk 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> Care to link anything that food costs more in the uk proportionally than before, 10, 20, 30, 40 yrs ago?

Why proportionally? Almost everything is cheaper proportionally now because of higher income.
About the impact of biofuels to food prices
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldbank-biofuels/update-3-biofuels-major-dr...
CAP and tarifs on food are equally important
 Baron Weasel 16 Oct 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> Apparently Chris Grayling says British farmers can grow more food in the event of a bad Brexit. I think we could all help by keeping calm and growing cress on blotting paper. It sprouts really quickly and we can survive on it until our gallant farmers have time to remodel the whole of Britain's agriculture.

Problem solved: https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/10/15/can-just-eat-cats-dogs-harvest-orga...

 galpinos 16 Oct 2017
In reply to pavelk:

That's an article from a paper in 2008? Is it still an issue?
cb294 16 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:

Have you not read the memo? We are in post expert times now!

CB

 pavelk 16 Oct 2017
In reply to galpinos:

Nothing has changed since then
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to pavelk:

> Why proportionally? Almost everything is cheaper proportionally now because of higher income.

So relative to the money folk are paid, food has never been cheaper. Thanks


2
 summo 16 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:

> Supermarkets have nothing to do with CAP. You might be right re bankruptcy, that proves my point.

Supermarkets are only able to buy at a low price because the CAP payment keeps the farm afloat.
Remove CAP and the supermarket would have to pay the farmer more, or have less on its shelves.

> Ian Caton BSc (Hons) Agricultural Economics

Curious, have you ever farmed, claimed CAP yourself?

Summo; farmer and CAP claimant in two countries, owner of many pieces of paper which overall do nothing to change the economics of farming within the EU.

4
 arch 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

^^^
LOL. Superb
 Sir Chasm 16 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> Supermarkets are only able to buy at a low price because the CAP payment keeps the farm afloat.

> Remove CAP and the supermarket would have to pay the farmer more, or have less on its shelves.

Or, as customers are resistant to paying more, the supermarkets will import from cheaper countries.


 Big Ger 16 Oct 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Who cares about European farmers? They're foreigners. The whole point of Brexit is to stop having to care about foreigners.

> Isn't it...?

> On the other hand, if we can give Johnny Foreigner Farmer a bloody nose, it's worth all of us subsisting off gruel for the next thirty years. Hoorah for Boris!

You display the childishness of the remain side at it's finest....
13
In reply to Pete Pozman:
My guess is if they really do this craziness there will be two separate waves of disruption. First when we leave the disruption of imports from and exports to the EU and to EU subsidies. There could be shortages, price rises, specialist farmers losing their main market and pressure from government for farmers to grow more. Then maybe 5 years later government will start signing trade deals and countries like the US, Australia, New Zealand and the Tories vaunted high-growth developing countries are going to insist on open access for agricultural products. At which point the environmental rules which shield the UK market will get dropped, prices will fall and anybody that expanded based on increased demand after leaving the EU will be screwed.
Post edited at 23:20
In reply to Big Ger:

Oh, you poor sensitive snowflake...
2
 Big Ger 17 Oct 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:
Nothing "sensitive" at all, just pointing out the poor quality of your slur.
Post edited at 00:57
3
In reply to Big Ger:

You're not here.

I can assure you that Brexit has allowed a rich vein of nasty xenophobia to reveal itself. That's the attitude that my comment is mocking.
4
 Big Ger 17 Oct 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> I can assure you that Brexit has allowed a rich vein of nasty xenophobia to reveal itself. That's the attitude that my comment is mocking.


Really? I think the only "nasty" thing revealed is your inability to cope with other people's views.
7
 FactorXXX 17 Oct 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

I can assure you that Brexit has allowed a rich vein of nasty xenophobia to reveal itself.

I think a lot of nastiness has been revealed with Brexit and not all of it on the side of the leavers...
2
In reply to Big Ger:

You think xenophobia is a view that should be tolerated? Rather than mocked in a rather gentle manner, by echoing the very jibes of said xenophobes? You know full well where the 'sensitive snowflake' jibe comes from; from the mouths of the most rabid, crowing, xenophobic brexiteers.
4
 Big Ger 17 Oct 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> You think xenophobia is a view that should be tolerated? Rather than mocked in a rather gentle manner, by echoing the very jibes of said xenophobes?


Well if you will make up imaginary "xenophobia" to mask you paucity of actual thought or ability to debate, then yes will tolerate it, but we'll also point out that mocking thought which only have existence in your imagination isn't really that productive.

> You know full well where the 'sensitive snowflake' jibe comes from; from the mouths of the most rabid, crowing, xenophobic brexiteers.

That's funny, the only person to use the"snowflake" jibe here, is errrmmm.... you.




7
 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> Or, as customers are resistant to paying more, the supermarkets will import from cheaper countries.

They could and many will. That's where a bit of national loyalty will help.

500grams of Brazilian ex rain forest beef, or 250grams of UK beef? Etc... The uk isn't the slimmest or healthiest nation a bit of diet wouldn't harm either. Yes, I know different issue altogether.

It's been a never ending race to the bottom that has got CAP to where it is now, trying to produce food to be competitive globally. Which given the costs and standard of living in some countries is next to impossible. It lurched from over supply with lakes and mountains, then set aside where folk were paid to do nothing... It's improved now with some basic environmental elements, but it's not solved any of the problems is up for review again. It's just a very expensive sticky plaster.
1
 Yanis Nayu 17 Oct 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-vote-hate-crime-rise-...

His comment did reflect the thought processes of a section of leave voters, and the leave campaign was and is characterised by xenophobia. To claim otherwise is just ludicrous.
2
cb294 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

+1, probably your first post I wholeheartedly support!

CB
 Sir Chasm 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

First you said "Remove CAP and the supermarket would have to pay the farmer more, or have less on its shelves.", now you say the supermarkets will source from cheaper countries because people don't want to pay more, make your mind up. Oh but brexit is going to magically engender "national loyalty" (hmm, Blut und Boden anyone?) and everyone will choose to pay more for their food - how likely do you think that is?
In reply to Big Ger:

> That's funny, the only person to use the"snowflake" jibe here, is errrmmm.... you.

You do understand what the word 'echo' means, right?

'Snowflake' featured widely in post-referendum threads here and almost universally in social media.
 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> First you said "Remove CAP and the supermarket would have to pay the farmer more, or have less on its shelves.", now you say the supermarkets will source from cheaper countries because people don't want to pay more, make your mind up. Oh but brexit is going to magically engender "national loyalty" (hmm, Blut und Boden anyone?) and everyone will choose to pay more for their food - how likely do you think that is?

In an ideal world people will endeavour to buy local, farmers will be paid more, they might then employ more people instead of working longer hours themselves. A circle of mutual benefits.

The reality is people are selfish, otherwise many businesses which have appalling tax, supply chain and work place ethics would already be out of business. Amazon, Starbucks, sports direct etc..

One solution would be trade tariffs towards imported food that 'can' be grown in the UK. Using that revenue to support farms who are more environmentally aware in their practices.
Post edited at 10:29
3
 Sir Chasm 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> In an ideal world people will endeavour to buy local, farmers will be paid more, they might then employ more people instead of working longer hours themselves. A circle of mutual benefits.

> The reality is people are selfish, otherwise many businesses which have appalling tax, supply chain and work place ethics would already be out of business. Amazon, Starbucks, sports direct etc..

Do you think leaving the eu will make people more likely to buy local if it costs more? Why don’t they do it now?

> One solution would be trade tariffs towards imported food that 'can' be grown in the UK. Using that revenue to support farms who are more environmentally aware in their practices.

According to the FDF 70% of our food and drink exports to the eu and 27% to countries that have a free trade agreement with the eu. So who are you going to impose tariffs on? The eu, when that’s where 70% of our stuff goes? Do you think that might make us a little vulnerable to retaliation? Or perhaps tariffs on the countries where the other 27% goes? But they can just ship it into the eu who then ship it to us (if we haven’t imposed tariffs on them).
In reply to summo:

> One solution would be trade tariffs towards imported food that 'can' be grown in the UK. Using that revenue to support farms who are more environmentally aware in their practices.

That solution isn't going to fly. The only trade deal that can come anywhere close to substituting for losing the EU single market is one with the US and the US is certain to demand maximum access to our market for their agricultural products. It won't just be the US, it is naive to think the UK will negotiate trade deals that give it everything and the other side nothing. That wouldn't happen even if we had serious people negotiating for us rather than clowns like Boris Johnson who just wants to play with the rowing boat.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-chevening-rowin...

 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> Do you think leaving the eu will make people more likely to buy local if it costs more? Why don’t they do it now?

They won't. But folk who blame others, need to understand their own spending habits are contributing to the very problems they complain about.

I know it won't, but there are countries like Norway which don't include food and drink in their EEA trade agreement. So it's more grey than B&W over what the uk could do in the future.

3
 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> That solution isn't going to fly...... That wouldn't happen even if we had serious people negotiating for us rather than clowns like Boris Johnson

I agree it won't happen for many reasons.

Do you really think a few senior MPs are the only people doing the actual 'real' negotiating?

Who do you think could do it better? No one in main stream politics springs to my mind just now. So I'd rather leave the front men or clowns to have their grand standing, on both sides. Barnier is hardly without an agenda, he's just Brussels version of Boris.
1
 ian caton 17 Oct 2017
In reply to cb294:

Oops, couldn't resist. Sorry Lol
 ian caton 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> Supermarkets are only able to buy at a low price because the CAP payment keeps the farm afloat.

> Remove CAP and the supermarket would have to pay the farmer more, or have less on its shelves.

Remove the CAP and the supermarket doesn't need to buy from the UK farmer. Less farmers, same land, lower prices. Remember the removal of the Corn Laws.

> Curious, have you ever farmed, claimed CAP yourself?

Yes, not that that would mean anything, UK and France. You don't claim CAP, it stands for Common Agricultural Policy.


> Summo; farmer and CAP claimant in two countries,

Mind blowing.



 ian caton 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

No it lurched from post war hunger to over supply.
 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:

> Remove the CAP and the supermarket doesn't need to buy from the UK farmer. Less farmers, same land, lower prices. Remember the removal of the Corn Laws.

Think the world has changed a little since the corn laws.

We can agree to disagree, I would have respected your opinion more had you previously said you had claimed under CAP , than simply citing your qualification. As was referenced on R2 yesterday, who would you rather listen to, the professor who has studied space through telescopes for 30yrs or the astronaut who went to the moon once.

From my experience CAP in all the various incarnations, is just a sticky plaster over a bigger problem, that can't really be truly solved, as the population always want something for nothing. It's also generally never in the favour of the small to medium farm owner.

3
 ian caton 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

You have to be kidding. Farming is going to be absolutely nailed by Brexit I am sorry to say. The sacrificial lamb.
 Sir Chasm 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> They won't. But folk who blame others, need to understand their own spending habits are contributing to the very problems they complain about.

Who are you saying is blaming who for what?

> I know it won't, but there are countries like Norway which don't include food and drink in their EEA trade agreement. So it's more grey than B&W over what the uk could do in the future.

What won't what? What are you responding to?
You suggested tariffs, which goods do you want tariffs on and which countries?
 johncook 17 Oct 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

It would be better for the economy, health and personal pocket if people took to growing veg instead of shortlived prettythings in their borders. My look pretty with lettuce, carrot beet parsnips onions etc. Don't need to buy veg until late winter.
I people didn't waste so much, or want standardised fruit and veg out food imports would be dramatically reduced. Also getting used to usimg seasonal fruit amd veg.
It would also help the environment, not having to ship food avtoss europe.
The Uk is a profligate society and for everyone and the environment this needs to stop.
cb294 17 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:


Yes I know that "claiming CAP" looks like weird shorthand, I assume summo refers to claiming subsidies provided by the EU under the CAP.

With that in mind, which part of his statement:

> It's been a never ending race to the bottom that has got CAP to where it is now, trying to produce food to be competitive globally. Which given the costs and standard of living in some countries is next to impossible. It lurched from over supply with lakes and mountains, then set aside where folk were paid to do nothing... It's improved now with some basic environmental elements, but it's not solved any of the problems is up for review again. It's just a very expensive sticky plaster.

do you disagree with?

I am not a farmer, but come from a farming village, my brother is an agricultural engineer, so I have some contact into the business, and quite a few farmers I know openly admit that they are mainly farming subsidies (e.g. growing sunflowers specifically when there is a premium on reducing oil production, so they just plow them under after cashing in, saves the hassle of the harvest).


I disagree, though, with his predictions for what will likely happen to UK farming when the UK withdraws from the protection of the common market and CAP, and has to renegotiate with US and Brazil.

My worry would be that UK farmers will be screwed over by asymmetric deals, the same way the EU now sadly treats farmers in Africa and Asia (in terms of reciprocal market access, tarriffs, standards, etc.).

CB
cb294 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

> As was referenced on R2 yesterday, who would you rather listen to, the professor who has studied space through telescopes for 30yrs or the astronaut who went to the moon once.

Depends on what the question is. In general, though, with the exception of the topic of how to fly a spacecraft, almost always the professor.

CB
In reply to summo:

> Who do you think could do it better? No one in main stream politics springs to my mind just now. So I'd rather leave the front men or clowns to have their grand standing, on both sides. Barnier is hardly without an agenda, he's just Brussels version of Boris.

Funny, I don't remember Barnier writing limericks about the sexual habits of the President of Turkey. To me Barnier looks more like a corporate chess player or senior lawyer than a clown, the sort of boring, grey suited guy who will sit there calmly figuring the angles while the other side blusters, not move from the position he has been told to represent and in the end eat the other side's lunch. If I was looking for a guest for Have I got News For You I'd go for Boris or David Davis time, but if I was looking for a guy to represent my financial interests it would be Barnier.


 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:

> You have to be kidding. Farming is going to be absolutely nailed by Brexit I am sorry to say. The sacrificial lamb.

I think the problem is the public has no idea how much they are subsidising their own food. Not to mention how little food security seems to be valued.
 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I'd say barnier is a eurocrat with his eye on prize. Junckers job.
In reply to summo:
> I'd say barnier is a eurocrat with his eye on prize. Junckers job.

He may well be after Juncker's job. Boris may well be after Theresa May's job. But you don't see Barnier with his shirt hanging out his trousers at a meeting of EU foreign ministers getting told off by his wife because he wants to have a shot in the rowing boat. Boris is like Trump, so obviously incompetent it is funny right up to the point he really f*cks things up.
Post edited at 16:25
cb294 17 Oct 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Not the worst choice for the job IMO, even if he may not be the current flavour of the month in the UK. Experienced, professional, not tainted by scandal (at least not more than most alternative candidates), and not from one of the small member states (about time to give the large net contributors more of a say).

CB
 ian caton 17 Oct 2017
In reply to cb294:

I find the quote incoherent so frankly don't know where to begin.

The CAP was a success, a hungry Europe was.able to feed itself, but then produced too much. Because of the political clout of the French and German farmers ( historically protected and.therefore small and.numerous) it has been difficult to reduce its expense. It was also for many a year the only common European policy and so kept the European project going. If we leave the EU I expect UK farming to have reduced protection, people to have cheaper food, but some intervention in the market to keep enough of a workforce on the land in case it comes to hey lads hey. Also without intervention some agricultural markets.are.inherantly unstable.
 ian caton 17 Oct 2017
In reply to summo:

I could rephrase that.

The public has no idea how much it is paying farmers to have expensive food.

I think a lot of subsidy is about food security and memories of the second world war. My grandparents on one side were.instructed to grow wheat and potatoes on their dairy farm, while my grandparents on the other side were instructed how many pigs they could.kill a week legally.
 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:
> It was also for many a year the only common European policy and so kept the European project going.

The eu grew off the back of coal and steel trading agreements, that were put in place after ww2, as they were seen as the back bone resources of war. Followed by other trade agreements. So CAP was never the only common agreement or policy in Europe, or keeping the Eu going. What CAP is like the Euro, is something which is far from perfect, near impossible to resolve, but also so scary to leave, many countries won't contemplate exiting the Eu, which keeps countries in club eu, by making it near impossible to leave.
cb294 17 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:

The CAP was indeed a success, but somewhat overgrew its initial purpose, from feeding Europe to subsidizing farmers to produce stuff that could then be dumped anywhere except the US and Canada (who were big and rich enough to pursue their own, analogous policies). At the same time, it pushed towards larger production units (subsidies coupled to area), improving efficiency. This aspect very much reflects a race to the bottom in terms of production cost, and is only in recent years slowly being reversed. However, as with all things EU, it takes a while.

I do not see at all how UK farming is expected to survive after Brexit, when all potential new trade partners will be able to negotiate access to the UK market, as the UK will be desperate to get agreements for larger sectors such as services. Farming is bound to be thrown under the bus, unless the UK remains in some form or other associated with the EU single market and hence the CAP, unloved as it is. Otherwise, prepare for unlimited South American beef, Brazilian and US wheat, etc..., all produced at an industrial scale.

CB

 summo 17 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:

> The public has no idea how much it is paying farmers to have expensive food.

Different phrase, same problem? Although if you work out the average £/hr of an owner farmer, they aren't the ones seeing the benefit of that expense. Our land is a little over 80% forest, as we now want the least to do with the agriculture side as is practical. It's just a massive money and time pit, with very little rewards short or long term.

> I think a lot of subsidy is about food security and memories of the second world war.

Maybe in its very early version, but it was heading way off by the 70s and 80s.

 deepsoup 17 Oct 2017
In reply to ian caton:
> You have to be kidding. Farming is going to be absolutely nailed by Brexit I am sorry to say. The sacrificial lamb.

"Sacrificial lamb" implies a certain innocence. Judging by the fields bordering roads around my way the farmers around here were quite enthusiastically pro-brexit, if they get nailed they'll have themselves to blame.

One such is a dairy farm with "support british farming" posters up around the gate. On the one hand I'm all for that, but on the other my response is a hollow laugh: why would I go out of my way to support your business so soon after you were campaigning to decimate mine?
 Big Ger 17 Oct 2017
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> His comment did reflect the thought processes of a section of leave voters, and the leave campaign was and is characterised by xenophobia. To claim otherwise is just ludicrous.

No it didn't, his post was an imaginary quote, made up to slur an imaginary group of people whom he thinks he disagrees with.

You know like to reflect the thought processes of a section of remain voters, who think " I hate myself for being a middle class white person, and I cannot think anything good about the UK as it provides me with such guilty feelings of how privileged I am over others, and the remain campaign was and is characterised by self loathing.

8
 Yanis Nayu 18 Oct 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

I think the remain campaign was characterised by a rational appraisal of the economic benefits and a rejection of the xenophobic mentality of those encouraging us to leave.
1
 Yanis Nayu 18 Oct 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> No it didn't, his post was an imaginary quote, made up to slur an imaginary group of people whom he thinks he disagrees with.

> You know like to reflect the thought processes of a section of remain voters, who think " I hate myself for being a middle class white person, and I cannot think anything good about the UK as it provides me with such guilty feelings of how privileged I am over others, and the remain campaign was and is characterised by self loathing.

That last paragraph just comes across as batshit crazy by the way. I presume you’re trolling.
1
 Rog Wilko 18 Oct 2017
In reply to Big Ger:

> You know like to reflect the thought processes of a section of remain voters, who think " I hate myself for being a middle class white person, and I cannot think anything good about the UK as it provides me with such guilty feelings of how privileged I am over others, and the remain campaign was and is characterised by self loathing.

That's total crap even by your extreme standards.
1
 Big Ger 18 Oct 2017
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
> That last paragraph just comes across as batshit crazy by the way. I presume you’re trolling.

Nope just parodying. But yet again you provide a perfect example of the slavish mentality of some here, who believe that someone satirising a post by reflecting it from the other viewpoint, can only be trolling.

Let's see now, do you consider this trolling?

> Who cares about European farmers? They're foreigners. The whole point of Brexit is to stop having to care about foreigners.

> Isn't it...?

> On the other hand, if we can give Johnny Foreigner Farmer a bloody nose, it's worth all of us subsisting off gruel for the next thirty years. Hoorah for Boris!

Of course not, as you can find ways of attempting to justify it as a rational point.

Let's look at the thought put into rebutting my parody

Rog;
> That's total crap even by your extreme standards.

You:
> That last paragraph just comes across as batshit crazy by the way. I presume you’re trolling

Aka, none whatsoever.
Post edited at 23:18

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...