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I want to take a straw pole for your favourite trad carabiner and why. I'm working on a project and would like peoples opinions - I know what I like but want to hear what other people like and don't like so won't predispose the conversation to any one direction by telling you my ideas thoughts!
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In reply to beardy mike:
Would it be giving too much away to specify what use you're asking about?
Racking? Building belays? On quickdraws?
Would it be giving too much away to specify what use you're asking about?
Racking? Building belays? On quickdraws?
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In reply to beardy mike:
Petzl Attache. My favourite by a clear margin. Very light for its dimensions, handles well with gloves, good gate-open size for clumsy climbers and winter warriors, perfect balance of weight and ease of handling for summer and winter.
https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Carabiners-and-quickdraws/ATTACHE
Petzl Attache. My favourite by a clear margin. Very light for its dimensions, handles well with gloves, good gate-open size for clumsy climbers and winter warriors, perfect balance of weight and ease of handling for summer and winter.
https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Carabiners-and-quickdraws/ATTACHE
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In reply to beardy mike:
http://dmmclimbing.com/products/phantom/
http://dmmclimbing.com/products/phantom-screwgate/
Brilliant kit
Light enough, big enough, reassuring in the hand
http://dmmclimbing.com/products/phantom/
http://dmmclimbing.com/products/phantom-screwgate/
Brilliant kit
Light enough, big enough, reassuring in the hand
Post edited at 19:31
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In reply to beardy mike:
I still rather like the original DMM Spectres, they look cool and work well winter and summer. I don't think the Spectre IIs are bad, in fact they work well, but the original version look better and of course, at the end of the day, that's what's important!
Before that for 15 years or so, BD Hotwires were my favourite. http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/stuff-that-works-black-diam...
I still rather like the original DMM Spectres, they look cool and work well winter and summer. I don't think the Spectre IIs are bad, in fact they work well, but the original version look better and of course, at the end of the day, that's what's important!
Before that for 15 years or so, BD Hotwires were my favourite. http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/stuff-that-works-black-diam...
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In reply to beardy mike:
Hi Mike,
I assume you mean wiregate. DMM Phantom pretty much ticks all boxes except shrouded nose. The Chimera should be the answer however it seems a retrograde step to me as it's heavier. Recently got some Mammut wall lights and so far so good in terms of light and usable. Go as small and Edelrid 19G and you end up with something that is useless IMHO.
Grivel made a nice and very light screwgate with the plume nut, with a rather cleaver screw sleeve fitting.
As you will have guessed light as possible whilst still being usable is my criteria!
Hi Mike,
I assume you mean wiregate. DMM Phantom pretty much ticks all boxes except shrouded nose. The Chimera should be the answer however it seems a retrograde step to me as it's heavier. Recently got some Mammut wall lights and so far so good in terms of light and usable. Go as small and Edelrid 19G and you end up with something that is useless IMHO.
Grivel made a nice and very light screwgate with the plume nut, with a rather cleaver screw sleeve fitting.
As you will have guessed light as possible whilst still being usable is my criteria!
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In reply to Wayne S:
The plume screwgate is great
Less good, ocun kestrel, too small for me
More generally does this just depend on your hand size - my kids like the ocun, I like the slightly bigger phantom.
The plume screwgate is great
Less good, ocun kestrel, too small for me
More generally does this just depend on your hand size - my kids like the ocun, I like the slightly bigger phantom.
In reply to beardy mike:
Hoodwires for non-mountain draws. Also good for racking. Though currently have phantoms on mountain draws and for racking. But them phantoms are a tad fiddly for hard (for me) trad, so might prefer something bigger.
Hoodwires for non-mountain draws. Also good for racking. Though currently have phantoms on mountain draws and for racking. But them phantoms are a tad fiddly for hard (for me) trad, so might prefer something bigger.
In reply to beardy mike:
Whatever's on a deal!
Having said that, if money is no object, wild country helium's please.
Whatever's on a deal!
Having said that, if money is no object, wild country helium's please.
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In reply to John Kelly:
I heard of people struggling with the Ocun, maybe it is handsize, but realistically you can only go so small. Phantom seems a good comprise, though I remember when they first came out they seemed like tin foil. The Mammut wall light has the same gate opening a tiny but smaller but only 23g, currently conducting trials on my cams!!. Just need to get paid for all this gear testing and I will have cracked it!
I heard of people struggling with the Ocun, maybe it is handsize, but realistically you can only go so small. Phantom seems a good comprise, though I remember when they first came out they seemed like tin foil. The Mammut wall light has the same gate opening a tiny but smaller but only 23g, currently conducting trials on my cams!!. Just need to get paid for all this gear testing and I will have cracked it!
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In reply to beardy mike:
I'd concur with Toby. I like the original DMM Spectres. I don't own any crabs more recent than those, although I have used other designs when using partner's gear.
I'd concur with Toby. I like the original DMM Spectres. I don't own any crabs more recent than those, although I have used other designs when using partner's gear.
Post edited at 20:47
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In reply to beardy mike:
I'll change my answer to Phantoms then! I don't particularly want a clean nose krab personally.
> Sorry yes, I should have said for extenders and racking cams etc. !
I'll change my answer to Phantoms then! I don't particularly want a clean nose krab personally.
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In reply to beardy mike:
WC Helium.
Full size and I have big hands. Clean nose. Super light. Slight curve to spine. Very personal preference but I don't like straight spines like DMM, the curve sits in the palm of the hand nicer.
Only thing I use them for that I will change to the WC Nitro is for racking wires. On the odd occasion wires have slid off the biner. My clumsy work not the biners fault to be fair but the Nitro (essentially a Helium without the clean nose) would help catch any stray wires.
WC Helium.
Full size and I have big hands. Clean nose. Super light. Slight curve to spine. Very personal preference but I don't like straight spines like DMM, the curve sits in the palm of the hand nicer.
Only thing I use them for that I will change to the WC Nitro is for racking wires. On the odd occasion wires have slid off the biner. My clumsy work not the biners fault to be fair but the Nitro (essentially a Helium without the clean nose) would help catch any stray wires.
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In reply to beardy mike:
Can we be clear what a straw pole is for? My favourite carabiner is usually the one that's nearest.
Can we be clear what a straw pole is for? My favourite carabiner is usually the one that's nearest.
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In reply to beardy mike:
Currently some really light weight Simmond (I think. Black and yellow tapes) ones that came on a really inexpensive set of quickdraws all from GO outdoors
Currently some really light weight Simmond (I think. Black and yellow tapes) ones that came on a really inexpensive set of quickdraws all from GO outdoors
In reply to DoctorYoghourt:
I design kit and am currently looking at carabiners. There are so many combinations and permutations on the theme (unlike cams to some extent) that it's good to hear other peoples experiences. It's interesting to note for example that so far nobody has mentioned the Alpha Trad which is highly shaped.
OK guys, as Jezb has mentioned, clean nose is not important to him, what features are? For example the pips either side of the nose to help prevent the gate open - I noticed the Phantom doesn't have these but is still very popular. It's interesting to me that the this is a biner which within the same range has competitors which are more richly featured but which are eschewed for the more basic Phantom. Is that the one that gets the balance of shape, usability and weight spot on?
I design kit and am currently looking at carabiners. There are so many combinations and permutations on the theme (unlike cams to some extent) that it's good to hear other peoples experiences. It's interesting to note for example that so far nobody has mentioned the Alpha Trad which is highly shaped.
OK guys, as Jezb has mentioned, clean nose is not important to him, what features are? For example the pips either side of the nose to help prevent the gate open - I noticed the Phantom doesn't have these but is still very popular. It's interesting to me that the this is a biner which within the same range has competitors which are more richly featured but which are eschewed for the more basic Phantom. Is that the one that gets the balance of shape, usability and weight spot on?
In reply to beardy mike:
£££ and color coded options for racking as well.
For me, something a tad bigger than Phantom (yet basic shape, so no Alpha Trad) and a clean nose (I prefer the Hoodwire solution, feels less bulky) at the weight and price of Phantom would certainly peek my interest.
This site being UK centric, I can certainly understand the DMM presence, and even I like them (albeit they can be a tad too small, Phantoms that is).
> ... competitors which are more richly featured but which are eschewed for the more basic Phantom. Is that the one that gets the balance of shape, usability and weight spot on?
£££ and color coded options for racking as well.
For me, something a tad bigger than Phantom (yet basic shape, so no Alpha Trad) and a clean nose (I prefer the Hoodwire solution, feels less bulky) at the weight and price of Phantom would certainly peek my interest.
This site being UK centric, I can certainly understand the DMM presence, and even I like them (albeit they can be a tad too small, Phantoms that is).
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In reply to beardy mike:
Whatever is cheap, let's face it what I climb weight is not a problem (only my own)
Whatever is cheap, let's face it what I climb weight is not a problem (only my own)
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In reply to beardy mike:
I'm still waiting for Camp to do a clean-nose version of their Photon Wire with a stiffer gate that also doesn't stick.
Then I think you would have the perfect all round wiregate. Large, lightweight at only 29g, with a massive gate opening (28 mm) and lots of colours (8 for the discerning OCD climber).
Shame they're so flawed.
I'm still waiting for Camp to do a clean-nose version of their Photon Wire with a stiffer gate that also doesn't stick.
Then I think you would have the perfect all round wiregate. Large, lightweight at only 29g, with a massive gate opening (28 mm) and lots of colours (8 for the discerning OCD climber).
Shame they're so flawed.
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In reply to GarethSL:
True, and they are cheap to boots.
In fact my winter rack (QDs and screamers) is Camp Orbit Wires, but the Photon is lighter and nicer than the Orbit... Orbit was just cheaper .
True, and they are cheap to boots.
In fact my winter rack (QDs and screamers) is Camp Orbit Wires, but the Photon is lighter and nicer than the Orbit... Orbit was just cheaper .
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In reply to beardy mike:
I have really small hands, and find that even the Phantom is a bit of a challenge to clip sometimes (Probably a lack of clipping skill comes into play too). I'm hoping to try the Edelrid 19g draws, I like the sound of microbiners.
I have really small hands, and find that even the Phantom is a bit of a challenge to clip sometimes (Probably a lack of clipping skill comes into play too). I'm hoping to try the Edelrid 19g draws, I like the sound of microbiners.
Post edited at 09:11
In reply to beardy mike:
> For example the pips either side of the nose to help prevent the gate open - I noticed the Phantom doesn't have these but is still very popular.
Can you give an example?> It's interesting to me that the this is a biner which within the same range has competitors which are more richly featured but which are eschewed for the more basic Phantom. Is that the one that gets the balance of shape, usability and weight spot on?
Yes. Or Spectres for only a grammes more.I might look at Chimeras if I had to replace the lot but Phantoms seems fine for now. I prefer a simple shape - straight or gentle curve back. I've not used the Alpha in anger but they felt slightly clumsy handling in a shop, gave the impression they might be tricky to reverse on an old bolt or awkward postitioned peg, and look like they are trying too hard.
In reply to flaneur:
So for example the Spectre 2 has a pip or shrouded section which shields the gate wire from snagging on rock when the biner is laid flat on a rock surface and moves across it due to extender movement. It helps avoid a gate open failure. Clean nose to the same thing but even better and also help prevent the biner from getting hung up on bolts or wires and being cross loaded. The flip side is tat clean nose is less convienient for sling draws and racking wires...
So for example the Spectre 2 has a pip or shrouded section which shields the gate wire from snagging on rock when the biner is laid flat on a rock surface and moves across it due to extender movement. It helps avoid a gate open failure. Clean nose to the same thing but even better and also help prevent the biner from getting hung up on bolts or wires and being cross loaded. The flip side is tat clean nose is less convienient for sling draws and racking wires...
In reply to beardy mike:
Quickdraws: a CAMP Nano on the gear end (for lightness) and a WC Helium on the rope end (for clipability).
Sling-draws: Phantoms.
Cams etc: A colour-coded Phantom on each. Most recently I bought Chimeras in preference to Phantoms owing to the shrouded nose.
Quickdraws: a CAMP Nano on the gear end (for lightness) and a WC Helium on the rope end (for clipability).
Sling-draws: Phantoms.
Cams etc: A colour-coded Phantom on each. Most recently I bought Chimeras in preference to Phantoms owing to the shrouded nose.
In reply to beardy mike:
By the way, someone should make a specific "wire racking" crab.
-- fairly large
-- *round* cross section
-- smooth curve profile.
-- but *light* -- so not full strength, just for carrying a bunch of wires.
By the way, someone should make a specific "wire racking" crab.
-- fairly large
-- *round* cross section
-- smooth curve profile.
-- but *light* -- so not full strength, just for carrying a bunch of wires.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I want everything on my harness to be properly useable I've used my racking krabs in belays and sure I will again at some point.
> -- but *light* -- so not full strength, just for carrying a bunch of wires.
I want everything on my harness to be properly useable I've used my racking krabs in belays and sure I will again at some point.
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In reply to DamonRoberts:
If you struggle to clip Phantoms, you probably won't enjoy trying to clip the 19g.
> I have really small hands, and find that even the Phantom is a bit of a challenge to clip sometimes (Probably a lack of clipping skill comes into play too). I'm hoping to try the Edelrid 19g draws, I like the sound of microbiners.
If you struggle to clip Phantoms, you probably won't enjoy trying to clip the 19g.
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In reply to jezb1:
I have a buddy who uses these: https://i1.adis.ws/i/maplin/N41JY_1?w=265&h=265&qlt=80&img404=N...
but then takes 3-4 of every size of nut. I'm not sure the weigth saving really pays off
I have a buddy who uses these: https://i1.adis.ws/i/maplin/N41JY_1?w=265&h=265&qlt=80&img404=N...
but then takes 3-4 of every size of nut. I'm not sure the weigth saving really pays off
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In reply to jezb1:
I agree... there are times when every single crab counts, and you do prefer them to be full strenght.
I, who has clipped the rope on the nut rackin' biner with still the remainder of nuts hanging from it... The bolted anchor was just some 10m away, but there is no change I'm climbing that long (with 55m of already climbing below me) of steep flared finger crack.
> I want everything on my harness to be properly useable I've used my racking krabs in belays and sure I will again at some point.
I agree... there are times when every single crab counts, and you do prefer them to be full strenght.
I, who has clipped the rope on the nut rackin' biner with still the remainder of nuts hanging from it... The bolted anchor was just some 10m away, but there is no change I'm climbing that long (with 55m of already climbing below me) of steep flared finger crack.
In reply to beardy mike:
Not sure if this is any use, but for quickdraws I use Edelrid 19G's at the gear end and DMM Alpha Trads at the rope end. Basically ergonomic where it actually matters, and lightweight where it doesn't. The slings are some 8mm Dyneema ones I found on sale, so again the draws are lightweight without causing problems with usability.
I used to use just off-the-shelf Edelrid 19G quickdraws, but I have fat fingers and couldn't clip them.
Not sure if this is any use, but for quickdraws I use Edelrid 19G's at the gear end and DMM Alpha Trads at the rope end. Basically ergonomic where it actually matters, and lightweight where it doesn't. The slings are some 8mm Dyneema ones I found on sale, so again the draws are lightweight without causing problems with usability.
I used to use just off-the-shelf Edelrid 19G quickdraws, but I have fat fingers and couldn't clip them.
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In reply to jezb1:
Agree with the point about everything being as versatile as possible. However I found I was starting to fumble and drop wires when using a common krab and now use small, light non-weight bearing krabs for each wire (they are on a simple bandolier so they are easy to compare). Quid for 2 on a bungee cord from Poundstore. My rack is small and this certainly wouldn't suit most people.
Incidentally in the rare instances where no krabs are left for the belay I imagine it would be OK to attach rope directly to anchor slings etc and perhaps alter the setup once the second arrived with gear.
> I want everything on my harness to be properly useable I've used my racking krabs in belays and sure I will again at some point. <
Agree with the point about everything being as versatile as possible. However I found I was starting to fumble and drop wires when using a common krab and now use small, light non-weight bearing krabs for each wire (they are on a simple bandolier so they are easy to compare). Quid for 2 on a bungee cord from Poundstore. My rack is small and this certainly wouldn't suit most people.
Incidentally in the rare instances where no krabs are left for the belay I imagine it would be OK to attach rope directly to anchor slings etc and perhaps alter the setup once the second arrived with gear.
In reply to beardy mike:
I know this isn't what you're asking for but I would like a beefy lockgate carabiner for belaying with, that partners with a nutkey so the two clip together. The carabiner part giving a chunky handle and a bit more mass for having a proper go at stubborn nuts. Better still a pop out nutkey element a bit like a flick-knife, that would be cool and make it much less likely you would ab into a sea cliff without your nutkey.
I know this isn't what you're asking for but I would like a beefy lockgate carabiner for belaying with, that partners with a nutkey so the two clip together. The carabiner part giving a chunky handle and a bit more mass for having a proper go at stubborn nuts. Better still a pop out nutkey element a bit like a flick-knife, that would be cool and make it much less likely you would ab into a sea cliff without your nutkey.
In reply to BlueTotem:
I like these hybrid set ups and this is similar to what I have planed for my 'superlight' winter rack, but I think I would prefer all my biners to have clean noses so would have the chimera and the alpha light's.
Seems to be the best compromise between weight, usability and also quality. At 80g for a 60cm slingdraw its not so bad. Of course I could get far lighter but at the expense of ergonomics. I was asking about the 19g's not so long ago but having played with some similar sized Ocun biners it became obvious that it was pointless looking at such small biners for winter.
> Not sure if this is any use, but for quickdraws I use Edelrid 19G's at the gear end and DMM Alpha Trads at the rope end.
I like these hybrid set ups and this is similar to what I have planed for my 'superlight' winter rack, but I think I would prefer all my biners to have clean noses so would have the chimera and the alpha light's.
Seems to be the best compromise between weight, usability and also quality. At 80g for a 60cm slingdraw its not so bad. Of course I could get far lighter but at the expense of ergonomics. I was asking about the 19g's not so long ago but having played with some similar sized Ocun biners it became obvious that it was pointless looking at such small biners for winter.
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In reply to Andy Long:
If you have 4 stents you should probably not cause extra stress by getting het up by a legitimate alternate spelling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabiner
If you have 4 stents you should probably not cause extra stress by getting het up by a legitimate alternate spelling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabiner
Post edited at 18:54
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In reply to beardy mike:
HC Heliums. Easy to handle for big hands. Big enough dimensions for both trad and winter use. Lightweight for alpine use. Dyeema that is thin and well-suited to trad. Consequently the best all-rounder for me.
HC Heliums. Easy to handle for big hands. Big enough dimensions for both trad and winter use. Lightweight for alpine use. Dyeema that is thin and well-suited to trad. Consequently the best all-rounder for me.
In reply to beardy mike:
For quickdraws and snapgates - DMM Phantoms
For belay building, Metolius Elements and a Clog super HMS
For quickdraws and snapgates - DMM Phantoms
For belay building, Metolius Elements and a Clog super HMS
In reply to beardy mike:
I got it wrong in my earlier posts. The ones I'm really impressed by on my current rack are Grivel. Impressively light. This link is for a single quickdraw but I got a set of mixed lengths at some ridiculously low price a few years back.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/grivel-gamma-k2w-and-k2w-quickdrawd-18cm-p41399...
I got it wrong in my earlier posts. The ones I'm really impressed by on my current rack are Grivel. Impressively light. This link is for a single quickdraw but I got a set of mixed lengths at some ridiculously low price a few years back.
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/grivel-gamma-k2w-and-k2w-quickdrawd-18cm-p41399...
In reply to beardy mike:
Dmm Alfa trad,
For; clean nose, light, fit my hand nicely
Against; difficult to buy by colour, expensive
Dmm Alfa trad,
For; clean nose, light, fit my hand nicely
Against; difficult to buy by colour, expensive
In reply to beardy mike:
Anybody out there who uses the Camp Nano 22 and the Phantom for a comparison? The Nano is marginally smaller but a 6 grammes lighter - obviously some of the weight will be tied up in that length and size...
Anybody out there who uses the Camp Nano 22 and the Phantom for a comparison? The Nano is marginally smaller but a 6 grammes lighter - obviously some of the weight will be tied up in that length and size...
In reply to John2:
Ditto. A fantastic karabiner. It still hasn't been beaten for quickdraws...
Although for racking cams I used colour-coded DMM Phantoms in Summer and DMM Spectre 2 in Winter, although I'd happily swap the later for Heliums but I can't really justify the extra cost.
> Wild Country Helium.
Ditto. A fantastic karabiner. It still hasn't been beaten for quickdraws...
Although for racking cams I used colour-coded DMM Phantoms in Summer and DMM Spectre 2 in Winter, although I'd happily swap the later for Heliums but I can't really justify the extra cost.
In reply to beardy mike:
I have Alpha Lights and like them a lot ...
> It's interesting to note for example that so far nobody has mentioned the Alpha Trad which is highly shaped.
I have Alpha Lights and like them a lot ...
In reply to beardy mike:
I have both.
I really rate the nano 22s - they are a big step up from the nano 23s (which I only played with in the shops), and to my hand are almost indistinguishable from a phantom in terms of usability and gate opening. The nanos feel a lot thinner, but I just have to trust the numbers that they're strong enough...
They also made the brilliant decision to have yellow, orange and red colours - so I can rack my totems with exact color matching
If I had to choose, I would probably go for phantoms/chimeras on the rope end, nano 22s on the gear end.
> Anybody out there who uses the Camp Nano 22 and the Phantom for a comparison? The Nano is marginally smaller but a 6 grammes lighter - obviously some of the weight will be tied up in that length and size...
I have both.
I really rate the nano 22s - they are a big step up from the nano 23s (which I only played with in the shops), and to my hand are almost indistinguishable from a phantom in terms of usability and gate opening. The nanos feel a lot thinner, but I just have to trust the numbers that they're strong enough...
They also made the brilliant decision to have yellow, orange and red colours - so I can rack my totems with exact color matching
If I had to choose, I would probably go for phantoms/chimeras on the rope end, nano 22s on the gear end.
Post edited at 21:48
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In reply to SenzuBean:
Thanks everybody - all this has been really useful and thought provoking. I know I might not have said masses but your input is appreciated. Hope I get it right!
Thanks everybody - all this has been really useful and thought provoking. I know I might not have said masses but your input is appreciated. Hope I get it right!
In reply to beardy mike:
Phantom is 26 grams IMHO, reviews suggest th nano 23 was rubbish, but the 22 is much needed improved. And yes I do weigh my gear!
Phantom is 26 grams IMHO, reviews suggest th nano 23 was rubbish, but the 22 is much needed improved. And yes I do weigh my gear!
In reply to beardy mike:
No worries, that said I think BD are optimistic the other way with the OZ as that is described at 28 but is 29 on the same scale that measures my phantoms as 26. I may have to concede I have a gear obsession!
No worries, that said I think BD are optimistic the other way with the OZ as that is described at 28 but is 29 on the same scale that measures my phantoms as 26. I may have to concede I have a gear obsession!
In reply to beardy mike:
Good size for me (small hands), light weight, clean nose, and I like how the bent back handles. But that seems to be a very Marmite thing, with people either really liking it or not.
(Also I'll admit to being shallow and liking how they look.)
I haven't had extensive experience with enough different models to be able to say that they're my favourite out of everything on the market, just that I've been pleased with them.
Good size for me (small hands), light weight, clean nose, and I like how the bent back handles. But that seems to be a very Marmite thing, with people either really liking it or not.
(Also I'll admit to being shallow and liking how they look.)
I haven't had extensive experience with enough different models to be able to say that they're my favourite out of everything on the market, just that I've been pleased with them.
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