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As a self confessed kit pest, I love a shiny new piece of kit, as many others do, regardless of the price.
...But I’ve recently seen the new Mammut Eigar extreme for sale retailing at £650; is it just me or are outdoor companies taking us for a ride?
I know for fact that a very well known British brand give a massive discount to workers of a outdoor retailer in the vicinity of 50% off (this can vary, but can even be more).
I understand it takes a shed load of time and research to develop the amazing kit we have at our finger tips, and for many price brackets, but the mark up just doesn’t seem that fair to me?
...But I’ve recently seen the new Mammut Eigar extreme for sale retailing at £650; is it just me or are outdoor companies taking us for a ride?
I know for fact that a very well known British brand give a massive discount to workers of a outdoor retailer in the vicinity of 50% off (this can vary, but can even be more).
I understand it takes a shed load of time and research to develop the amazing kit we have at our finger tips, and for many price brackets, but the mark up just doesn’t seem that fair to me?
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In reply to RyanH:
If you don't choose to buy that jacket, then no, they're not taking you for a ride.
If you don't choose to buy that jacket, then no, they're not taking you for a ride.
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In reply to RyanH:
Well, it's specialised kit (if you like) and there is some choice what you can buy. I just got a brand new Gore-Tex Pro jacket for £70 - so deals can be found - we don't need to pay £650 for a jacket to be able to get out in British mountains.
That, and there's always a set of people that just want to make a statement when getting some expensive stuff. It's less of a case in the UK, but I grew up in Lithuania where things like that happen a lot more. My sister used to work for a mobile phone company and she would get people coming to the store, saying what smartphone their neighbours got and they want a better one.
By the way, if my calculations are right, 2 years ago it would have costed around £510. Euro rate dropped from 1.429 to 1.12. So...
Well, it's specialised kit (if you like) and there is some choice what you can buy. I just got a brand new Gore-Tex Pro jacket for £70 - so deals can be found - we don't need to pay £650 for a jacket to be able to get out in British mountains.
That, and there's always a set of people that just want to make a statement when getting some expensive stuff. It's less of a case in the UK, but I grew up in Lithuania where things like that happen a lot more. My sister used to work for a mobile phone company and she would get people coming to the store, saying what smartphone their neighbours got and they want a better one.
By the way, if my calculations are right, 2 years ago it would have costed around £510. Euro rate dropped from 1.429 to 1.12. So...
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In reply to Luke90:
That’s not the point. The point being, people that are going to consider buying kit in that price range (including myself for certain items), are these prices and mark up warranted?
That’s not the point. The point being, people that are going to consider buying kit in that price range (including myself for certain items), are these prices and mark up warranted?
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In reply to RyanH:
How much is it after VAT is removed, after the shops markup is removed and so on and so on , including a very weak pound Yes, it's expensive, but you live in a rich country and noone is forcing you to buy it
How much is it after VAT is removed, after the shops markup is removed and so on and so on , including a very weak pound Yes, it's expensive, but you live in a rich country and noone is forcing you to buy it
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In reply to RyanH:
Most manufacturers and retailers work roughly on a 50% margin.
So if it costs Mammut £125 they will sell it to shops at £250 and shops will sell it for £500. This makes higher end product way more expensive. £50 more to manufacture is £200 more to the consumer. Same as anything else you get diminishing returns. Top end stuff costs loads more for very little extra performance but it is how new tech and ideas are developed that then trickle down.
When you then take into account the poor exchange rate it then gets worse.
It's also why direct sales models like Alpkit and mountain bike companies like Canyon come in so much cheaper.
I still think if you look at a jacket for example and think the tech on that is worth me spending £600 then they have justified the price if not then you haven't been taken for a ride.
Most manufacturers and retailers work roughly on a 50% margin.
So if it costs Mammut £125 they will sell it to shops at £250 and shops will sell it for £500. This makes higher end product way more expensive. £50 more to manufacture is £200 more to the consumer. Same as anything else you get diminishing returns. Top end stuff costs loads more for very little extra performance but it is how new tech and ideas are developed that then trickle down.
When you then take into account the poor exchange rate it then gets worse.
It's also why direct sales models like Alpkit and mountain bike companies like Canyon come in so much cheaper.
I still think if you look at a jacket for example and think the tech on that is worth me spending £600 then they have justified the price if not then you haven't been taken for a ride.
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In reply to wbo:
No I understand that. I’m simply asking for a general feel from people in a outdoor community. I’m not looking at buying a jacket as I have a perfectly good gortex jacket of my own. I just saw the price and i wondered how others felt about paying such prices for a jacket, knowing that some companies are willing to give such big discount.
No I understand that. I’m simply asking for a general feel from people in a outdoor community. I’m not looking at buying a jacket as I have a perfectly good gortex jacket of my own. I just saw the price and i wondered how others felt about paying such prices for a jacket, knowing that some companies are willing to give such big discount.
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In reply to RyanH:
I'm not convinced tbh. I think there are some breathtaking examples out there but by the same token prices haven't entirely shot up compared to inflation: in 1994 I bought a North Face All Weather jacket in Goretex for £175. This was about 35 quid more than the base level Goretex at the time, a Mountain Range model, at £230ish (I worked in outdoor retail at the time and we did stock lots of Mountain Range as it was the cheapest option for gore stuff).
I bought a replacement a couple of years ago: a Mountain Equipment Shivling in Goretex Pro for £200. A very similar jacket with more / better features for 25 quid more twenty plus years later.
By the same token, my Scarpa SL boots cost £110 then, to replace now would be £240ish!
A cheap screwgate krab then would be a fiver with brand leader at up to a double that. Has that changed much in 20+ years?
The mark up in the outdoor industry is quite a bit lower than many sections of retail (especially clothing), there are sections of the industry where the price frankly astounds me, like Arcteryx or some of the Norwegian/Scandinavian companies, but on the whole prices really haven't shot up much in the last twenty years.
I'm not convinced tbh. I think there are some breathtaking examples out there but by the same token prices haven't entirely shot up compared to inflation: in 1994 I bought a North Face All Weather jacket in Goretex for £175. This was about 35 quid more than the base level Goretex at the time, a Mountain Range model, at £230ish (I worked in outdoor retail at the time and we did stock lots of Mountain Range as it was the cheapest option for gore stuff).
I bought a replacement a couple of years ago: a Mountain Equipment Shivling in Goretex Pro for £200. A very similar jacket with more / better features for 25 quid more twenty plus years later.
By the same token, my Scarpa SL boots cost £110 then, to replace now would be £240ish!
A cheap screwgate krab then would be a fiver with brand leader at up to a double that. Has that changed much in 20+ years?
The mark up in the outdoor industry is quite a bit lower than many sections of retail (especially clothing), there are sections of the industry where the price frankly astounds me, like Arcteryx or some of the Norwegian/Scandinavian companies, but on the whole prices really haven't shot up much in the last twenty years.
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In reply to RyanH:
I don't think the 'outdoor community' are the target market for 650 quid jackets. The market for 650 quid jackets is rich people who want to look like climbers. The places 650 quid jackets get worn are Instagram posts from sponsored climbers and on the way to work in a bank in London
> No I understand that. I’m simply asking for a general feel from people in a outdoor community.
I don't think the 'outdoor community' are the target market for 650 quid jackets. The market for 650 quid jackets is rich people who want to look like climbers. The places 650 quid jackets get worn are Instagram posts from sponsored climbers and on the way to work in a bank in London
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In reply to RyanH:
Perceived value.
That's it.
I asked about down parkas for my niece last year, as she was looking to buy a Canada Goose jacket. I think they're very poor value, as they're nothing special. But my niece sees only labels, and Canada Goose have somehow managed to get some brand cachet. Despite my advice and suggestions, she went for the Canada Goose, at more than twice the price of the very good alternatives I offered.
Perceived value.
That's it.
I asked about down parkas for my niece last year, as she was looking to buy a Canada Goose jacket. I think they're very poor value, as they're nothing special. But my niece sees only labels, and Canada Goose have somehow managed to get some brand cachet. Despite my advice and suggestions, she went for the Canada Goose, at more than twice the price of the very good alternatives I offered.
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In reply to RyanH:
It's something almost nobody needs. They can charge whatever people will pay and if they will then Mammut are probably getting they're money's worth from their marketing department
It's something almost nobody needs. They can charge whatever people will pay and if they will then Mammut are probably getting they're money's worth from their marketing department
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In reply to RyanH:
I am sure there is a degree of positioning as each brand will have uber expensive top end stuff in a range with more realistic pricing generally.
Some people want some expensive stuff because it's expensive, but promises something elite.
IMHO you wouldn't buy a Harley Davidson if you want a reliable motorcycle that handles and perfoms, yet they sell loads. They sell a dream.
My uber expensive goretex Arc'teryx jacket is crap compared to a cheap as chips eVent job.
Buyer beware or buyer discretion as they say.
I am sure there is a degree of positioning as each brand will have uber expensive top end stuff in a range with more realistic pricing generally.
Some people want some expensive stuff because it's expensive, but promises something elite.
IMHO you wouldn't buy a Harley Davidson if you want a reliable motorcycle that handles and perfoms, yet they sell loads. They sell a dream.
My uber expensive goretex Arc'teryx jacket is crap compared to a cheap as chips eVent job.
Buyer beware or buyer discretion as they say.
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In reply to RyanH: ahhh this old chestnut. If you think outdoor companies are taking you for a ride and are working on the percentage markup then you want to try looking at fashion gear. It's a much higher margin of profit. So no, I don't think they are taking you for a ride. Companies are set up to make a profit, whether that is an outdoor shop or a manufacturer. Most outdoor clothing has a markup of around 50% from manufacturer to shop, gear less so. The shop needs to pay stay, rent, insurance, tax, money to hold stock, staff wages etc. So their 50% is justified. Likewise the manufacturer.
The question you should be asking is "Is it worth buying a 650 quid mammut eiger extreme which is the top notch jacket you can buy on the market for climbing in? When I'm a lazy punter who only climbs Vdiff (I include myself in that)". You will find the answer is no. They don't make many of these jackets and they are more a technology demonstrater than anything else, a loss leader to show that Mammut is a serious company which makes proper gear for proper alpinists. Would you be able to climb a VDiff in a crisp packet from Aldi? Yes . And it will still be better than what walter Bonatti had. Will you notice a difference in comfort levels if you buy something better? Yes to a certain extent, byt only you can determine where that cut off point is. You probably don't need to spend more than a couple of hundred quid if you don't want to and you will get a pretty decent piece of kit...
The question you should be asking is "Is it worth buying a 650 quid mammut eiger extreme which is the top notch jacket you can buy on the market for climbing in? When I'm a lazy punter who only climbs Vdiff (I include myself in that)". You will find the answer is no. They don't make many of these jackets and they are more a technology demonstrater than anything else, a loss leader to show that Mammut is a serious company which makes proper gear for proper alpinists. Would you be able to climb a VDiff in a crisp packet from Aldi? Yes . And it will still be better than what walter Bonatti had. Will you notice a difference in comfort levels if you buy something better? Yes to a certain extent, byt only you can determine where that cut off point is. You probably don't need to spend more than a couple of hundred quid if you don't want to and you will get a pretty decent piece of kit...
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In reply to PPP:
That assumes that all the costs are generated in Euros - although, in fact, you perhaps ought to have used Swiss Francs. Many or the costs associated with buying a jacket from a UK retailer will be UK costs and unaffected by the exchange rate.
> By the way, if my calculations are right, 2 years ago it would have costed around £510. Euro rate dropped from 1.429 to 1.12. So...
That assumes that all the costs are generated in Euros - although, in fact, you perhaps ought to have used Swiss Francs. Many or the costs associated with buying a jacket from a UK retailer will be UK costs and unaffected by the exchange rate.
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
But mostly in alpine ski resorts. When it costs over £1,000 for a family lift pass, and every lunchtime more then £100 for pizza for 4, dad is going to get himself a nice jacket. Chances are he works in banking of course, so you're on the mark.
> I don't think the 'outdoor community' are the target market for 650 quid jackets. The market for 650 quid jackets is rich people who want to look like climbers. The places 650 quid jackets get worn are Instagram posts from sponsored climbers and on the way to work in a bank in London
But mostly in alpine ski resorts. When it costs over £1,000 for a family lift pass, and every lunchtime more then £100 for pizza for 4, dad is going to get himself a nice jacket. Chances are he works in banking of course, so you're on the mark.
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In reply to angry try googling inflation calculator. Quite interesting, but (us rates) some you bought in 1985 for a tenner would cost you 22 today - so your boots and krabs are effectively unchanged
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In reply to RyanH:
I'm going to give you my standard answer to this type of question.
There is a solution if you think pricing is unfair but it's not an easy one.
Quit your job, start up your own company making outdoor clothing then sell it at a price you deem fair.
Why should a price be "fair" on a non essential luxury item? The manufacturer is free to set the price point anywhere they like. Too high and people vote with their wallets, too low and lots of people won't buy it because they fear there is something wrong because it's too cheap.
Remember that once you go to market and set your price accordingly.
> I understand it takes a shed load of time and research to develop the amazing kit we have at our finger tips, and for many price brackets, but the mark up just doesn’t seem that fair to me?
I'm going to give you my standard answer to this type of question.
There is a solution if you think pricing is unfair but it's not an easy one.
Quit your job, start up your own company making outdoor clothing then sell it at a price you deem fair.
Why should a price be "fair" on a non essential luxury item? The manufacturer is free to set the price point anywhere they like. Too high and people vote with their wallets, too low and lots of people won't buy it because they fear there is something wrong because it's too cheap.
Remember that once you go to market and set your price accordingly.
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In reply to wbo:
Yes, I totally agree - I don't think I communicated my point very well. I think that the boots seemed expensive by comparison to other items as they had risen more or less in line with inflation, whereas you can get ropes, cams and krabs for similar money to the prices 20 years ago.
The "cutting edge" goretex then was the likes of North Face and the Berghaus Mera Peak at circa £300. They were most often bought by folk who I might politely describe as non-mountaineers. Allowing for inflation as you correctly pointed out, means that jackets at £550ish are not so outlandish even if we are not quite the target market.
Yes, I totally agree - I don't think I communicated my point very well. I think that the boots seemed expensive by comparison to other items as they had risen more or less in line with inflation, whereas you can get ropes, cams and krabs for similar money to the prices 20 years ago.
The "cutting edge" goretex then was the likes of North Face and the Berghaus Mera Peak at circa £300. They were most often bought by folk who I might politely describe as non-mountaineers. Allowing for inflation as you correctly pointed out, means that jackets at £550ish are not so outlandish even if we are not quite the target market.
In reply to Wayne S:
This --^
Its marketing 101 - and the technique is called anchoring. You position a very high end premium product at the top of your range. If some people buy it (and they will) then great - you've made some money. However its main purpose it to make the £250 jackets look like a sensible investment for the rest of us, rather than something that is significantly overpriced.
We all like to think of ourselves as individualists but from a psychological perspective this generally works.
> I am sure there is a degree of positioning as each brand will have uber expensive top end stuff in a range with more realistic pricing generally.
This --^
Its marketing 101 - and the technique is called anchoring. You position a very high end premium product at the top of your range. If some people buy it (and they will) then great - you've made some money. However its main purpose it to make the £250 jackets look like a sensible investment for the rest of us, rather than something that is significantly overpriced.
We all like to think of ourselves as individualists but from a psychological perspective this generally works.
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In reply to RyanH:
Well to be honest, the price of something like Riisto'Ryx Alpha SV hasn't changed almost at all during the last 15 years or so.
They retailed for over 650 Eur then and seem to go at a slightly higher price now (749). In fact if taking into account inflation, for the 650 Eur in 2002, the 'current' value would be ~800 Eur... So infact the price of Alpha SV jacket has effectively dropped .
That being said, they are still spendy as hell.
But as others have pointed out, if you actually work in the business (certified guide etc.). You do get a pro-deal and then even the higher end stuff starts to close down on reasonable prices. Again, this happens simple because these deals are made directly with the manufacturer, so cutting off the middle men (like the retailer). And some brands can even eat their own earnings a bit, because they will get targetted marketing (guides) or real product feedback (MRTs and such).
Plus always remember to compare MSRP, a lot of peole compare a sales price to MSRP. Not really fair (and for instance, Sport Pursuit had the Alpha SVs for like 300 Eur or so some time ago) .
As for the earnings that the retailers makes... We'll I can honestly say that most shops don't sell that many ¨~600+ quid jackets per year. Yet they need to keep a few different brands/models on stock and naturally different sizes (and perhaps colors)... So in my opinion, shops should (and often do) have a higher markup than 50%. Especially so on high end stuff... which is why you think you get a stellar deal on them, when they clear out inventory for like 80% off (yet they might still make some money out of it, naturally not enough to sell all the time, but still a few pounds).
Well to be honest, the price of something like Riisto'Ryx Alpha SV hasn't changed almost at all during the last 15 years or so.
They retailed for over 650 Eur then and seem to go at a slightly higher price now (749). In fact if taking into account inflation, for the 650 Eur in 2002, the 'current' value would be ~800 Eur... So infact the price of Alpha SV jacket has effectively dropped .
That being said, they are still spendy as hell.
But as others have pointed out, if you actually work in the business (certified guide etc.). You do get a pro-deal and then even the higher end stuff starts to close down on reasonable prices. Again, this happens simple because these deals are made directly with the manufacturer, so cutting off the middle men (like the retailer). And some brands can even eat their own earnings a bit, because they will get targetted marketing (guides) or real product feedback (MRTs and such).
Plus always remember to compare MSRP, a lot of peole compare a sales price to MSRP. Not really fair (and for instance, Sport Pursuit had the Alpha SVs for like 300 Eur or so some time ago) .
As for the earnings that the retailers makes... We'll I can honestly say that most shops don't sell that many ¨~600+ quid jackets per year. Yet they need to keep a few different brands/models on stock and naturally different sizes (and perhaps colors)... So in my opinion, shops should (and often do) have a higher markup than 50%. Especially so on high end stuff... which is why you think you get a stellar deal on them, when they clear out inventory for like 80% off (yet they might still make some money out of it, naturally not enough to sell all the time, but still a few pounds).
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In reply to RyanH:
You seem to be confusing staff discounts and mark-up. The discount the manufacturer gives to retail staff who will be selling the product on their behalf is an incentive to be knowledgeable about the products in question, and to sell them over and above other brands in the store.
Mark-up is the margin that the retailer puts on the product over and above the price that they paid the manufacturer for it, covering their costs and profit requirements.
There’s nothing wrong or immoral with either. As always, if you don’t like the price, don’t buy the product.
> No I understand that. I’m simply asking for a general feel from people in a outdoor community. I’m not looking at buying a jacket as I have a perfectly good gortex jacket of my own. I just saw the price and i wondered how others felt about paying such prices for a jacket, knowing that some companies are willing to give such big discount.
You seem to be confusing staff discounts and mark-up. The discount the manufacturer gives to retail staff who will be selling the product on their behalf is an incentive to be knowledgeable about the products in question, and to sell them over and above other brands in the store.
Mark-up is the margin that the retailer puts on the product over and above the price that they paid the manufacturer for it, covering their costs and profit requirements.
There’s nothing wrong or immoral with either. As always, if you don’t like the price, don’t buy the product.
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In reply to HeMa:
I guess this is a point worth remembering. Those few that may 'need' a £650 jacket probably won't be paying £650 for it.
> But as others have pointed out, if you actually work in the business (certified guide etc.). You do get a pro-deal and then even the higher end stuff starts to close down on reasonable prices. Again, this happens simple because these deals are made directly with the manufacturer, so cutting off the middle men (like the retailer). And some brands can even eat their own earnings a bit, because they will get targetted marketing (guides) or real product feedback (MRTs and such).
I guess this is a point worth remembering. Those few that may 'need' a £650 jacket probably won't be paying £650 for it.
In reply to angry pirate:
I think anyone complaining about mountaineering/climbing brand prices should go look at the prices of ski stuff on Snow&Rock or another online retailer. They make Arcteryx look like Peter Storm in terms of prices!
> there are sections of the industry where the price frankly astounds me, like Arcteryx or some of the Norwegian/Scandinavian companies
I think anyone complaining about mountaineering/climbing brand prices should go look at the prices of ski stuff on Snow&Rock or another online retailer. They make Arcteryx look like Peter Storm in terms of prices!
In reply to angry pirate:
You're right about Arcteryx But clever marketing (guides get one complete set free then trade on all else) It creates a must have scenario and no small measure of all the gear and no idea to be renewed regularly
You're right about Arcteryx But clever marketing (guides get one complete set free then trade on all else) It creates a must have scenario and no small measure of all the gear and no idea to be renewed regularly
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In reply to RyanH:
They're only "taking you for a ride" if you buy their stuff. Markup mostly disappears in salaries, pensions and rent as well as development of the next products
They're only "taking you for a ride" if you buy their stuff. Markup mostly disappears in salaries, pensions and rent as well as development of the next products
I have seen a person in a Mammut extreme jacket. He was also holding his umbrella and walking his dog in the rain...
Companies will try to sell things and apparently there is a market for the expensive stuff. Good for those who can afford it. I just help my self of Decathlon stuff, but even then I have a tendency to wait for discounts.
Companies will try to sell things and apparently there is a market for the expensive stuff. Good for those who can afford it. I just help my self of Decathlon stuff, but even then I have a tendency to wait for discounts.
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