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Hello, I've read somewhere that "the leader should not fall" when climbing mixed i.e.: Scottish winter stuff.
As a noob this seems hard to comprehend, why can't you fall? Bad gear?
How does anyone climb anything if this is the general rule?
As a noob this seems hard to comprehend, why can't you fall? Bad gear?
How does anyone climb anything if this is the general rule?
In reply to GoneFishing111:
Because you might die perhaps?
Or impale yourself on any of the many sharp points that you have about your body.
Al
Because you might die perhaps?
Or impale yourself on any of the many sharp points that you have about your body.
Al
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
In winter, belays are often not too good. And there tend to be a lot of sharp pointed metal things which may well cause injuries
In winter, belays are often not too good. And there tend to be a lot of sharp pointed metal things which may well cause injuries
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
Partly due to certain Scottish winter routes having less than bomber gear. But this can be got around by picking your route and conditions. It's mainly due to having some very pointy, sharp metal things in your hands and on your feet. If you fall with those then you are liable to either grot yourself on your axes or have your crampons snag on something and snap your leg mid fall. But don't be deterred by any of this, Scottish mixed is like having a sexy, younger, Latino mistress. Dangerous, but worth every damn but of it
Partly due to certain Scottish winter routes having less than bomber gear. But this can be got around by picking your route and conditions. It's mainly due to having some very pointy, sharp metal things in your hands and on your feet. If you fall with those then you are liable to either grot yourself on your axes or have your crampons snag on something and snap your leg mid fall. But don't be deterred by any of this, Scottish mixed is like having a sexy, younger, Latino mistress. Dangerous, but worth every damn but of it
Post edited at 19:29
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
By climbing stuff which is (hopefully) within the range of their ability and experience, and/or picking routes with reasonable gear?
JW
> How does anyone climb anything if this is the general rule?
By climbing stuff which is (hopefully) within the range of their ability and experience, and/or picking routes with reasonable gear?
JW
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
P.s if you actually have a sexy, younger, Latino mistress then please spend your time with her and not in the frigging cold, wet, snowy, scary, miserable Scottish winter hills
P.s if you actually have a sexy, younger, Latino mistress then please spend your time with her and not in the frigging cold, wet, snowy, scary, miserable Scottish winter hills
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
Doesn't matter what discipline sometimes it's just a good idea not to fall off.
Bouldering- high above a bad landing etc
Sport- when you decide not to preclip 1st bolt etc
Trad- shit gear, runouts etc
Winter- like trad but worse and with pointy things
Alpine- like winter but now noone is allowed to fall and even without falling off everything else is trying to kill you
Doesn't matter what discipline sometimes it's just a good idea not to fall off.
Bouldering- high above a bad landing etc
Sport- when you decide not to preclip 1st bolt etc
Trad- shit gear, runouts etc
Winter- like trad but worse and with pointy things
Alpine- like winter but now noone is allowed to fall and even without falling off everything else is trying to kill you
Post edited at 19:33
54
In reply to GoneFishing111:
When you're ice/ mixed climbing you have one or two ice axes and a pair of crampons with 12 points on each of them, given the propensity of people to flail when they're falling off there's lots of opportunity to stick pointy things into yourself. Also the possibility of crampons remaining jammed in cracks/ catching on edges means an increased likelihood of flipping upside down. Also yes, the possibility of being miles away from your last runner above an otherwise awful belay (there are however winter routes with fairly good gear in my admittedly quite limited experience).
When you're ice/ mixed climbing you have one or two ice axes and a pair of crampons with 12 points on each of them, given the propensity of people to flail when they're falling off there's lots of opportunity to stick pointy things into yourself. Also the possibility of crampons remaining jammed in cracks/ catching on edges means an increased likelihood of flipping upside down. Also yes, the possibility of being miles away from your last runner above an otherwise awful belay (there are however winter routes with fairly good gear in my admittedly quite limited experience).
1
In reply to GoneFishing111:
People do fall on well protected mixed climbs from time to time, I have a few times. But I also have a scar on my calf muscle where the heel point of my crampon cut across before going into my leg after a relatively small ground fall (into deep snow, and steep slope so I slid down a bit, rather than stopping abruptly). I've met people who snapped both ankles when coming to a halt on a otherwise clean fall, but because they were wearing crampons - SNAP.
So overall, falling off with crampons on is never a great idea. Maybe you get away with it 9 times out of 10, but that's not brilliant odds if you are left halfway Lochnagar or the Ben facing either a helicopter ride if you are lucky or an agonising crawl if you are not.
People do fall on well protected mixed climbs from time to time, I have a few times. But I also have a scar on my calf muscle where the heel point of my crampon cut across before going into my leg after a relatively small ground fall (into deep snow, and steep slope so I slid down a bit, rather than stopping abruptly). I've met people who snapped both ankles when coming to a halt on a otherwise clean fall, but because they were wearing crampons - SNAP.
So overall, falling off with crampons on is never a great idea. Maybe you get away with it 9 times out of 10, but that's not brilliant odds if you are left halfway Lochnagar or the Ben facing either a helicopter ride if you are lucky or an agonising crawl if you are not.
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
Presumably in the usual way - by starting at the bottom and climbing up to the top without falling off.
Funnily enough, I've taken almost as many proper leader falls on mixed routes as on trad rock climbs (despite having climbed many, many times more rock climbs), simply because the investment of effort in winter climbing has made me more psyched to push it at times.
> How does anyone climb anything if this is the general rule?
Presumably in the usual way - by starting at the bottom and climbing up to the top without falling off.
Funnily enough, I've taken almost as many proper leader falls on mixed routes as on trad rock climbs (despite having climbed many, many times more rock climbs), simply because the investment of effort in winter climbing has made me more psyched to push it at times.
Post edited at 20:09
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
As Toby says, it can be ok to fall off if the gear is good and the ground is steep. However even then it’s not recommended for the reasons above and you need experience to judge whether it might be ok to fall off.
One way not to fall off is to clip into an axe if you’re getting pumped, as long as the axe is in a good placement.
As Toby says, it can be ok to fall off if the gear is good and the ground is steep. However even then it’s not recommended for the reasons above and you need experience to judge whether it might be ok to fall off.
One way not to fall off is to clip into an axe if you’re getting pumped, as long as the axe is in a good placement.
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
Ouhh is it time for this one again yet?
https://m.epictv.com/video/adventure/massive-60m-mixed-climb-fall
Ouhh is it time for this one again yet?
https://m.epictv.com/video/adventure/massive-60m-mixed-climb-fall
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In reply to GarethSL:
Cheers, forgot about that one. Perfect demonstration of what not to do if you don’t want to fall off...
Cheers, forgot about that one. Perfect demonstration of what not to do if you don’t want to fall off...
In reply to GoneFishing111:
Just like any other risk you evaluate it then decide whether it's worth taking.
It's like driving a car, you've got a seat belt and air bags that'll probably keep you safe if you do crash but you still do your best not to find out!
> How does anyone climb anything if this is the general rule?
Just like any other risk you evaluate it then decide whether it's worth taking.
It's like driving a car, you've got a seat belt and air bags that'll probably keep you safe if you do crash but you still do your best not to find out!
1
In reply to GoneFishing111:
The whole 'leader must not fall' comes from the days before modern protection. While it no longer applies to the same extent to rock climbs, for any activity involving axes and crampons the risk of snagging a point and snapping an ankle (or worse) is as a few posters have mentioned pretty high. I know of one girl who took a fairly short fall on icy/mixed ground and did just that.
The whole 'gear is rubbish/belays are rubbish in winter' thing is imo a bit of a self perpetuating fallacy; people hear it, accept it, don't look for gear properly and then report that a climb is poorly protected. If you take the time to brush snow from all the cracks and carry a big rack you can usually find something. Peckers, bulldogs etc help. That said, I tend to choose to climb IV 5 or V 6 routes over V 4 and VI 5s...
I'm way more conservative when it comes to trusting ice protection than rock pro; not something I plan to change. Any ice screw is only as good as the ice it's placed in, then there's the question of what that's bonded to etc.
I'd second what Mischa said about being willing to clip into an axe and rest or even lower off instead of taking a fall. There would be a lot of time in hospital to regret playing by someone else's rules.
R
The whole 'leader must not fall' comes from the days before modern protection. While it no longer applies to the same extent to rock climbs, for any activity involving axes and crampons the risk of snagging a point and snapping an ankle (or worse) is as a few posters have mentioned pretty high. I know of one girl who took a fairly short fall on icy/mixed ground and did just that.
The whole 'gear is rubbish/belays are rubbish in winter' thing is imo a bit of a self perpetuating fallacy; people hear it, accept it, don't look for gear properly and then report that a climb is poorly protected. If you take the time to brush snow from all the cracks and carry a big rack you can usually find something. Peckers, bulldogs etc help. That said, I tend to choose to climb IV 5 or V 6 routes over V 4 and VI 5s...
I'm way more conservative when it comes to trusting ice protection than rock pro; not something I plan to change. Any ice screw is only as good as the ice it's placed in, then there's the question of what that's bonded to etc.
I'd second what Mischa said about being willing to clip into an axe and rest or even lower off instead of taking a fall. There would be a lot of time in hospital to regret playing by someone else's rules.
R
10
In reply to GoneFishing111:
If you belayed your way up, say Tower Ridge in the same way climbers carefully belay themselves on multi pitch trad rock routes. IE, belaying every inch of the way on bomber belays you'd spend most of the time getting benighted and having epics in the dark and on descents.
So if you want to successfully complete many long mixed routes you often have to have long run outs, miss placements out on 'safe(ish), ground.
It is often a simple fact that if you mucked around looking for that "oh, so perfect anchor', hidden in some place under snow and did that for the whole climb you'd never complete it in the short winter days.
So if you're the leader its best not to fall!!
If you belayed your way up, say Tower Ridge in the same way climbers carefully belay themselves on multi pitch trad rock routes. IE, belaying every inch of the way on bomber belays you'd spend most of the time getting benighted and having epics in the dark and on descents.
So if you want to successfully complete many long mixed routes you often have to have long run outs, miss placements out on 'safe(ish), ground.
It is often a simple fact that if you mucked around looking for that "oh, so perfect anchor', hidden in some place under snow and did that for the whole climb you'd never complete it in the short winter days.
So if you're the leader its best not to fall!!
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Robert, given that you've taken a few falls in both summer and winter, it would be interesting to hear which tended to be more injurious. Admittedly (hopefully!) a small sample size, but an interesting study nonetheless.
Robert, given that you've taken a few falls in both summer and winter, it would be interesting to hear which tended to be more injurious. Admittedly (hopefully!) a small sample size, but an interesting study nonetheless.
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In reply to Tricadam:
The sample size is indeed extremely small (I am exceptionally prudent/wimpish about falling off generally). So two proper winter falls and probably about four in summer over 35 years of climbing. Must be thousands of summer routes and maybe a couple of hundred winter ones. Only injury has been a small gash above my eye from the axe which popped out precipitating one of the winter falls on the top pitch of The Migrant.
> Robert, given that you've taken a few falls in both summer and winter, it would be interesting to hear which tended to be more injurious. Admittedly (hopefully!) a small sample size, but an interesting study nonetheless.
The sample size is indeed extremely small (I am exceptionally prudent/wimpish about falling off generally). So two proper winter falls and probably about four in summer over 35 years of climbing. Must be thousands of summer routes and maybe a couple of hundred winter ones. Only injury has been a small gash above my eye from the axe which popped out precipitating one of the winter falls on the top pitch of The Migrant.
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
Luckily enough, I've not (yet) fallen off on lead in winter. If I think about the two times I almost did (axe placement ripped at an inconvenient moment yet somehow I stayed on) one was near the top of the slabby off-width on the first pitch of Scabbard Chimney, about 3m above some good rock gear. So I might have gone for a bumpy 8 or 9 metre ride, with significant possibility of catching a crampon and being flipped upside down. Broken stuff possible but certainly not guaranteed. The other was on the big ice pitch of No. 6 Gully on Aonach Dubh. The ice was ... less than solid - to the extent that any screw I attempted to place could easily come free wi a bit o hand-jiggling. (This was disappointing, particularly in view of how solid it had been on the previous lower pitches - and indeed turned out to be on the one above. Go figure!) I did though manage to lodge a bomber tricam in the left wall a third of the way up. I'll have been about 10m above this at the time that the almost-off moment occurred. So that would likely have turned out less well. At least the belay was good...!
I certainly wouldn't say either event was the closest I've come to major injury in the mountains though: carelessness in winter has led to a couple of slides on relatively easy ground that could very easily have been terminal. And I've found myself in very unpleasant situations a couple of times when scrambling. What those all have in common is not being remotely attached to the mountain!
Edit: Forgot about another one! Left hanging from a single axe in frozen turf on a very thin Raeburn's Gully (Lochnagar) last December when the ice sheet I was standing on parted company with the mountain and my other turf-buried axe ripped. The ground wasn't particularly difficult so I hadn't placed anything for about 6 or 7 metres. So that would've been potentially unpleasant. Good belay though.
Luckily enough, I've not (yet) fallen off on lead in winter. If I think about the two times I almost did (axe placement ripped at an inconvenient moment yet somehow I stayed on) one was near the top of the slabby off-width on the first pitch of Scabbard Chimney, about 3m above some good rock gear. So I might have gone for a bumpy 8 or 9 metre ride, with significant possibility of catching a crampon and being flipped upside down. Broken stuff possible but certainly not guaranteed. The other was on the big ice pitch of No. 6 Gully on Aonach Dubh. The ice was ... less than solid - to the extent that any screw I attempted to place could easily come free wi a bit o hand-jiggling. (This was disappointing, particularly in view of how solid it had been on the previous lower pitches - and indeed turned out to be on the one above. Go figure!) I did though manage to lodge a bomber tricam in the left wall a third of the way up. I'll have been about 10m above this at the time that the almost-off moment occurred. So that would likely have turned out less well. At least the belay was good...!
I certainly wouldn't say either event was the closest I've come to major injury in the mountains though: carelessness in winter has led to a couple of slides on relatively easy ground that could very easily have been terminal. And I've found myself in very unpleasant situations a couple of times when scrambling. What those all have in common is not being remotely attached to the mountain!
Edit: Forgot about another one! Left hanging from a single axe in frozen turf on a very thin Raeburn's Gully (Lochnagar) last December when the ice sheet I was standing on parted company with the mountain and my other turf-buried axe ripped. The ground wasn't particularly difficult so I hadn't placed anything for about 6 or 7 metres. So that would've been potentially unpleasant. Good belay though.
Post edited at 10:18
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Thanks Robert. Reminds me that my most permanent/inconvenient climbing injury is a retinal scar caused by a chunk of ice flying into it as I swung my axe halfway up the ice wall at Braehead! I've worn protective eyewear on winter routes ever since. Thankfully my brain seems to have learned to cope with the mild double vision in low lighting conditions that resulted! Very lucky that it wasn't in the centre of the eye otherwise it would be a very different story...
Thanks Robert. Reminds me that my most permanent/inconvenient climbing injury is a retinal scar caused by a chunk of ice flying into it as I swung my axe halfway up the ice wall at Braehead! I've worn protective eyewear on winter routes ever since. Thankfully my brain seems to have learned to cope with the mild double vision in low lighting conditions that resulted! Very lucky that it wasn't in the centre of the eye otherwise it would be a very different story...
In reply to Tricadam:
Something similar happened to me two winters ago. The entire ice sheet (sounds bigger than it actually was...) I was climbing ripped at chest height, leaving me stuck 4 or 5m off the ground, hanging from two solid axes but with absolutely nothing for the feet. In the end I jumped off onto the snow below despite wearing crampons, and retrieved the axes from above.
Should have known better, but at least we judged the ice conditions correctly to stay off the bigger routes and limited ourselves to "ice bouldering".
CB
Something similar happened to me two winters ago. The entire ice sheet (sounds bigger than it actually was...) I was climbing ripped at chest height, leaving me stuck 4 or 5m off the ground, hanging from two solid axes but with absolutely nothing for the feet. In the end I jumped off onto the snow below despite wearing crampons, and retrieved the axes from above.
Should have known better, but at least we judged the ice conditions correctly to stay off the bigger routes and limited ourselves to "ice bouldering".
CB
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In reply to GoneFishing111:
I've not heard this before on mixed. I've always found mixed routes have lots of gear. Depends on routes. Also find alot of the mixed stuff fairly tentative and often aware an axe could pop off at any minute. Fallen quite a few times and usually been fine. Fell off Stirling bridge in past and bruised by backside. Had to bum slide all way off hill as walking was sore.
I'd say get good gear in and go for it.
I've not heard this before on mixed. I've always found mixed routes have lots of gear. Depends on routes. Also find alot of the mixed stuff fairly tentative and often aware an axe could pop off at any minute. Fallen quite a few times and usually been fine. Fell off Stirling bridge in past and bruised by backside. Had to bum slide all way off hill as walking was sore.
I'd say get good gear in and go for it.
In reply to Roberttaylor:
Verglass can be almost impossible to clean from cracks at times. I agree in principle though that you should keep looking for gear as mush as is reasonable and clear the cracks where you can.
Personally I'd trust an ice screw in good looking ice over a bulldog in a well iced crack (where its often hard to access whats holding it in)
Verglass can be almost impossible to clean from cracks at times. I agree in principle though that you should keep looking for gear as mush as is reasonable and clear the cracks where you can.
Personally I'd trust an ice screw in good looking ice over a bulldog in a well iced crack (where its often hard to access whats holding it in)
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Nothing makes winter climbing harder than it has to be than verglassed cracks. Imagine the difference between an early season Savage Slit (rimed up but nice dry rock beneath) v.s. a verglassed SS.
Nothing makes winter climbing harder than it has to be than verglassed cracks. Imagine the difference between an early season Savage Slit (rimed up but nice dry rock beneath) v.s. a verglassed SS.
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