UKC

Two sports routes. One 20 metres with 2 distinct UK 5c moves. The other 42 metres with solid UK 5b moves all the way with very little let up. Which would you consider to be the harder route and how would you grade them? For the record the first one gets F6c in the guide and the latter F6b. Personally I found the second one the hardest.

I'm always up for a good grading debate especially when I can't get out climbing

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

I always find translating UK tech grades to French grades easiest if I go via the E grade because assuming similar protection that gives you a rough measure of physical difficulty analogous to a French grade.

So 2 5c moves could be anywhere from E2 to E3 - unlikely to be E1 but two top-end 5c moves back to back when already a little tired (you didn't say how sustained the rest of the route is) could nudge into E3. So E2-3 across to 6b/+?

40m that's really 5b every move in thinking that's harder than Ocean Boulevard which is 5b, similar ISH length but has rests and isn't all 5b. It is steep though whereas your route might be tech wall/slab 5b. Either way I'm thinking E3 and therefore maybe 6b+/c.

So my guess is closer to the other way round. But then 5b and 5c and degrees of sustainedness are all fairly broad concepts so the error bars are quite wide...

In reply to AJM:

I tend to translate sport routes into UK grades almost subconsciously because I think it can, at times, describe the route better. In this instance I would give the F6c E2 5c and the F6b E3 5b. I know this is one of those grade anomalies but I think it describes these two routes better in cases like this. The majority of the F6b was overhanging.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Assign a score to each tech move eg 1 for 5 a, 2 for 5b, 3 for 5c and divide by total moves . Don't score 4c and below and add an extra divisor for rests/shakes. the compare scores

In reply to GridNorth:

2 x 5c moves at the bolts in an otherwise uneventful 20m sport route I´ d only give 6a+/6b anyway.

In reply to GridNorth:

I would have thought they'd be around the same difficulty. Probably depends on whether you are better suited at sustained or cruxy climbing. Personally I'm the former due to lots ice climbing and crack climbing. Friends who boulder a lot I suspect would find the 5c route easier.

In reply to jimtitt:

I agree but what about the sustained route with sustained UK 5b moves?

Al

In reply to GridNorth:
Depends on where you can clip really, if it´ s really something you have to actually climb and clip 5b nearly all the way then 6b/6b+, 40m of it and I might get slightly more generous still!
I listen to the feedback for routes I grade (I only listen, not nescessarily follow it though) and hear from climbers who come from areas with generally short routes and shorter climbing walls (ca 15m) who fade away terribly on longer routes, some accept this is their weakness, some think the grades are wrong!
Th UK tech grade covers such a wide area of French sport grades anyway it´ s not something I´ d get particularly bothered with anyway, English 5b/5c covering about 5a to 7a and sometimes higher.

In reply to GridNorth: my starting point would be about the same, 6b, but it would very mostly with the degree steepness and the difficulty between the 5c points. The perception and strenghs of the climber would be a strong bias on the results


I've spent the weekend belaying speed climbing - should i feel dirty?

In reply to GridNorth:

Which one do people succeed on more often? This grade deconstruction is all well and good but the real test isn't the number or difficulty of moves, it's the chance of success if you're operating at roughly that grade.

In reply to wbo:


Yes definitely.

If you'd like to readjust to proper climbing you could always belay me for the day. Taking 45 minutes to do 15m of VS climbing is somewhat of a speciality of mine.

In reply to GridNorth:

If the route was steep wouldn't 40m of truly relentless 5b with no respite be a bit like climbing DNA multiplied by 1.5?
Cruxy 6a+ can also have 5c moves on them if there isn't any pump induced before the tricky moves.

In reply to jimtitt:
, English 5b/5c covering about 5a to 7a and sometimes higher.

Other way round

In reply to Liam Ingram:


Is a route with so many rests really the benchmark for "no respite"?

In reply to AJM:

Is DNA only strenuous 5b. I've never done it. I did try Kastor and it shut me down after 6 moves

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


I'd be surprised if it is - a lot of it is jugs but there is a trickier section near the top where the feet were a little unhelpful (a lot of the jugs are after all on tufa so are actually sidepull buckets) and a number of our team struggled - but I struggle to compare because there's nothing I've done given a UK tech grade which is the same style and angle.

The nearest comparison I can offer (other than a ~7a indoor route of a similar length and angle) is that no bolt to bolt length would be harder than the sort of thing which might get V1/V2 on a typical indoor wall grade scale?

In reply to GridNorth:

Sounds like you just have very poor endurance

I hate slopers, but routes with slopers aren’t harder...I’m just not good at them.

Also, name dem routes!

In reply to Kemics:

Oh, come on! Routes, or at least steep routes, with slopers are *way* harder...

In reply to Bulls Crack:



?

In reply to GridNorth:

What happen when the bolts are spaced I'm talking 10/12 ft apart at least and 35/40m routes, Do's that mean the E grade go's up but not the technical grade, many as I was finding in Switzerland Last month.
And as most climbers know on big granite slabs/walls like in Alfroide etc.

keith s

In reply to jimtitt:

The overall grade covers a variety of tech grades - make more sense that way around!

In reply to keith sanders:

Depends on the route. Many at Ailefroide are relatively easy with just one crux pitch which is several grades harder than anything else. I did one with my son a few years ago. We arrived at the bottom and as we were gearing up a French Guide arrived and started unpacking nuts and cams. He pointed out that some of the bolts needed to be supplemented with natural pro but that those pitches were not too hard. I set off with some trepidation but it was fine. I had some huge run outs but the grade was probably never more than VS and slabby so I coped. The crux pitch was 6a+ with a bolt every metre. Some routes at Ailfroide could almost warrant a separate grading system altogether

Al

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Well maybe
In the context of the OP where the English tech grades were the reference point and the question where to place the French equivelents possibly it´ s better my way round.