/ Nomic loose heads, the cure...

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coldwill - on 07 Nov 2017
Hi,
I've just put together a how to album for fixing the Nomic head problem.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/57572248@N08/albums

I'll report back after the weekend of dry tooling if they hold up or not.

Chers
coldwill - on 07 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:
The photos have descriptions if you open them btw and you should be able to see them now, a few had the wrong privacy settings
Post edited at 23:28
Jeff Ingman - on 08 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

That looks like a really good job. I've seen other 'fixes' using more rivets but your solution looks really solid!
tjin - on 08 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

So just add glue/epoxy?
stevieweesaxs107 - on 08 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

Nice tidy Job...see how they shape up after a winter season
Matt Buchanan - on 08 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

Looks good! Can I commission you to fix my axes?
Martin McKenna - UKC - on 08 Nov 2017
In reply to Matt Buchanan:

> Looks good! Can I commission you to fix my axes?

I'll also put mine in for a service!
alexm198 - on 08 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

This looks great. I’d definitely commission you to fix mine — this could be the start of something beautiful!
TobyA on 08 Nov 2017
In reply to alexm198:

Does anyone own a pair of Nomics that they use where the head has come loose? It's funny that people keep buying them when their failure rate seems so high.

Big Lee - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:

Problem is there doesn't seem to be a perfect axe on the market for water ice. So Petzl keep on milking it in the meantime. I bought a pair of X-Dreams last winter thinking they would be the all-conquering axe but I still managed to break the grip rest immediately above the offset grip after just six weeks. Luckily the handles are replaceable.
mattc - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

Did you try sending them back? They sent my mate a new pair
GarethSL on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to mattc:

Right?! Everyone I know who's had wobbly heads got a new pair from petzl

Which subsequently became wobbly again...
Big Lee - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to GarethSL:

> Everyone I know who's had wobbly heads got a new pair from petzl

> Which subsequently became wobbly again...

That's because Varri (the Petzl distributor in Norway) replace the axes with wobbly heads, whilst Lyon (the UK Petzl distributor) seems not to as a rule, instead blaming misuse, drytooling, etc. I have a friend who is on about his fifth set of axes from Varri.
coldwill - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to mattc: I didn't try sending them back as these were exchanges for a pair bought in Canada with the original mk2 handle problem. I've been using various axes since then and found the best to be the X dream. Using these again has reminded me how excellent they are for pretty much everything. The real driver for fixing these was the four pairs of used picks I have sat in a draw. going dry tooling this weekend which will be a real test for them.
Stuart the postie - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to Big Lee:

Petal (Charlet) has been aware of this single rivet, wobbly head problem since mid 90's. For 3 years in a row, I returned Pulsars with the very same problem, always returned re glued and riveted!

This is a reason why I don't own Nomics, fantastic as they are....

Stuart
DubyaJamesDubya - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:
> Does anyone own a pair of Nomics that they use where the head has come loose? It's funny that people keep buying them when their failure rate seems so high.

People seem to like sing them. Perhaps this fix makes them perfect.
Post edited at 11:27
coldwill - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to Stuart the postie: I doubt that it is the single rivet that is the problem. I think it is the interference fit of the shaft and the head that is too weak. The 12 points on the head of the axe that contact the shaft I don't think cover enough area and what with the flexing of the shaft end up causing wear which gradually gets worse. A larger interference fit, or thicker shaft or maybe Aluminium Epoxy in this case would hopefully solve the problem.
Matt Buchanan - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to mattc:

I did send them back to Petzl. They had been used for two seasons. I was told that it was obvious that they had been used for mixed climbing which they had been. They said that Nomics were not designed for this and refused to replace them.
DubyaJamesDubya - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:

> Does anyone own a pair of Nomics that they use where the head has come loose? It's funny that people keep buying them when their failure rate seems so high.

People seem to like using them. Perhaps this fix makes them perfect. (corrected response)
krikoman - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

You might be better off using galvanised screws rather then the stainless you've used. You've got three dissimilar metals all in contact with each other, which is a recipe for galvanic corrosion, if they get wet. There's a particular issue with galvanised and stainless as the zinc will be sacrificed very quickly.

I doubt it will be a major issue but, it's something to think about.


Failing that I would grease all the components thoroughly.
coldwill - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to krikoman:
The epoxy should prevent any water ingress into the joint. Any corrosion should be superficial. Am I wrong?
Also I think greasing the components would be counterproductive in an interference fit..
Post edited at 14:23
krikoman - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

> The epoxy should prevent any water ingress into the joint. Any corrosion should be superficial. Am I wrong?
Possibly, the water might sit in the hole around the metals involved.
Like I said it's not something I'd really worry about but it's a possibility, and it can be happening out of sight. For the sake of using the same screw as the thing you're screwing it into I'd personally change the screw.

> Also I think greasing the components would be counterproductive in an interference fit..

It's not really an interference fit if you can insert both components by hand and since you're not relying on friction to hold the thing together I don't think a bit of grease would make much difference.

Smothering all the parts with your epoxy would work, but from the photos it looked as if you'd only done the shaft and head. (Ooh er missus).

I wasn't criticising by the way, I think it's a great mend.



coldwill - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to krikoman:
Yeah, if I had seen the joinery screws I would have used them, or used the non zinc components if I had thought about it. The epoxy is everywhere in he joint, including the thread, and has sealed the whole thing completely. It’s not some thing I’m gonna worry about in this pair tbh, see if they last first.
Dave Kerr - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:
My related thread from a while back: https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=660508&v
Post edited at 16:51
krikoman - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

> Yeah, if I had seen the joinery screws I would have used them, or used the non zinc components if I had thought about it. The epoxy is everywhere in he joint, including the thread, and has sealed the whole thing completely. It’s not some thing I’m gonna worry about in this pair tbh, see if they last first.

Job done then
coldwill - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to Dave Kerr:
Had not seen that. I don't think the bevel at the top of the shaft would make that much difference as the the bevel is outwards and the outer edge would still meet the shaft and support the head. Having said that every little helps and I wish I had got rid of the bevel now. Drilling the oversized hole for the M6 bolt would have covered the >1mm difference in shaft length. I did note that the aluminium of the head was considerably easier to drill than the thin aluminium of the shaft, the shaft also appeared thinner than the shaft of the old model though I did not have one to hand to compare. I'm hopping the epoxy will now support the shaft and head or vice versa and that there won't be any movement. It should be strong enough to withstand the abuse and will hopefully cure the problem. The head still had to be hammered out despite the movement and had to be hammered back in. It was actually easier with the wet epoxy acting as a lubricant.
Post edited at 18:17
Dave Kerr - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

I think its very clearly some sort of built in obsolescence but that it backfired a bit by packing in too quickly. Petzl know fine well how to make an axe that lasts.
coldwill - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to Dave Kerr:

I believe in cock up not conspiracy generally.
Dave Kerr - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:
Reckon if it was a cock up they'd have fixed it by now. Plus, on the two I looked at it just seemed such an obvious fault.
Post edited at 19:46
TobyA on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to Stuart the postie:

> Petal (Charlet) has been aware of this single rivet, wobbly head problem since mid 90's. For 3 years in a row, I returned Pulsars with the very same problem, always returned re glued and riveted!

Really? My Pulsars seemed pretty indestructible, they weren't used that much after the early noughties and I got Quarks but I only sold them on a couple of years ago and they were still in decent working order.

My Quarks got hammered for the best part of a decade - when I finally upgraded to Vipers, the Quarks had developed a tiny bit of play in the spike, I think because I retro fitted the pinkie rests and they take a lot battering when ice climbing, but the heads were rock solid, and my friend's daughter is still using them now with no issues. I always thought this was a Nomic issue, not a Charlet or Petzl issue.
Mountain Llama on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

I like you're style of trying to fix something that's broke.

Having looked at you're pic's I think the original design is flawed. The length that the head inserts into the shaft is very short. Couple this with the single fixing for the head does nothing to manage the relative force and movement for the head within the shaft.

So basically the shaft which is softer material than the head is subject to a large turning force around the single fixing when in use. So gradually the head and shaft fixing becomes loose.

A better design would have to simply increase the length of the head into the shaft and use 2 fixing points. This would aid the shaft and the head flexing together under load.

Just my thoughts Davey
coldwill - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to Mountain Llama:

yep, the area of contact between the shaft and the head is too small.
EuanM - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to Matt Buchanan:

Seems a bit unfair considering they're being used for mixed in this promo film

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG95yGRaooY
Stuart the postie - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:
I had straight shafted purple ones, beautiful things. Broke an adze, replaced with Quasar adze, bigger, steeper angled, better for climbing. Also sheared top pick allen bolts through alloy head, pick flat against shaft. Maybe you swung yours with more finesse......

Stuart
Post edited at 23:10
Matt Buchanan - on 09 Nov 2017
In reply to EuanM:

That's what I said! Fell on deaf ears unfortunately...
mattc - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Matt Buchanan:

That's very poor service!
alexm198 - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Matt Buchanan:

I had the same conversation with Lyon, even down to pointing out the same video. They weren’t interested.

Frankly I think it’s pretty unacceptable but sadly as Big Lee points out higher up, there is no better axe for steep ice so people keep buying them (I haven’t tried X-Dreams so can’t comment). Lyon do seem alone in their reluctance to offer replacements though — I know people in chamonix who’ve had luck returning them through Petzl France.
HeMa on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to alexm198:

Swing vise, X-dream is even better than Nomic... Not to mention that the X-dream is also better on harder mixed.

At least from my testing.

I'll still stick to my Fusions though... Greens for ice & mountains and Oranges for mixed... And I'm also waiting to see the new Fusions come out... Ines Paperts Pentagram already showed a Orange Fusion kind of dealio... but with parts from the newest (gen 3.) Viper.
coldwill - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to HeMa:

I have to counter that by saying that as I've used both extensively, the Nomic is the better tool. The handle is way better, the top handle on the XD gets in the way quite often and is very flexible. Ive also broken the pommel before. On mixed they are comparable with the handle only making a difference at just over vertical. The picks on the XD are good on ice but are so thin that they wear down too quick. The Nomic picks are beefier and last longer and can be sharpened more ofter and they are just as good on ice. I now use Krukanogi picks in my XD for everything.

Good luck with the green Fusions on ice though (I used to own a pair and felt guilty selling them), your obviously core as you like to make life hard.
Interestingly BD appear to glue the heads on so maybe they have that right.
Nath93 - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to alexm198:

I had to argue my way to getting Lyon to return my pair to Petzl HQ for inspection. Petzl also agreed that it was a user fault but replaced them as a gesture of "good will". Probably because I worked in an outdoor shop they supplied at the time.

As soon as I got the replacement pair I sold them and bought Switches instead.
GarethSL on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

> Good luck with the green Fusions on ice though (I used to own a pair and felt guilty selling them), your obviously core as you like to make life hard.

Never understood the hate, love climbing on ice with my fusions, they make nomics look like tonka toys ^_^
HeMa on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill:

I guess we have agree that we disagree.

For me the swing If Xdream is about the best, and Nomic isn’t much worse. Durability, well as I don’t own them I can’t say. But Neither of my friends have had any problems. The other did break a green Fusion though.

As for me using greens on ice. They ain’t Perfect, but with the tweaks I’ve made, they’re good enough for the stuff I climb.
coldwill - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to coldwill: I'd just like to post success so far with this. There was only limited action this weekend and nothing too hard. Only a couple of full weight stein pulls and a lot of pulling. I didn't use them too much as the picks weren't up ideal not for any other reason. More to come hopefully.

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