/ Let's admit, that indoor move is redundant in outdoor climbing

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mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
It seems to be the trend in many bouldering/climbing walls that I frequent that many 'competition' style problems are now being set with moves such as 'double dynos' and 'run and jump dynos' that I've never seen executed outdoors, let alone do them myself.

Though I love indoor climbing, I still see it as training for outdoor climbing in many ways, and I tend to avoid these problems. Is it just me, or are these moves redundant in outdoor bouldering/climbing? What other moves are redundant and pointless in this manner?
AlanLittle - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

Well there is the argument - currently being made on the other thread about running problems - that it's relevant for training foot/eye/multi limb coordination.

Not everything we do for training has to directly mimic how we climb. After all, if you find yourself hanging statically from a small crimp with both hands, feet off, on a route then something has gone badly wrong. Yet nobody disputes that it's one of the most effective things you can do for training.
Robert Durran - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

Yes, I agree, there is a trend towards indoor problems for indoor problems' sake rather than problems to train on. The bouldering at my local climbing wall has gradually tended towards this sort of thing over the last few years and nowadays I sometimes struggle to find good honest cranking problems to get strong on and sets of problems for doing 4x4's on which avoid silly moves which spit me off unexpectedly. I suppose the weird bouldering types need to be catered for, but there does need to be a balance.
pasbury on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

Relevant or not, they are fun!
AlanLittle - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> good honest cranking problems to get strong on

Moonboard.

Although then you do have the problem of the feet-follow-hands rule forcing stupidly big moves the whole time. One could of course just ignore that rule.
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to AlanLittle:
Of course you are correct, but it is debatable whether some specific indoor movements are useful for training. Although it's partly a personal gripe because I suck at them (and there are issues with safety at crowded walls - perhaps a London problem), I generally want to spend my finite time and energy on movements/routes/problems that have the best training stimulus for improvement to climbing outdoors.

Hence, I think it's a great topic to discuss
Post edited at 11:57
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

+1 for more good honest cranking problems
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think it's also the social media effect to get more likes and views 'How can put the most ridiculous moves together to make an instagram worthy post'.

Ultimately to get more people through the door - which is not necessarily a bad thing.
galpinos on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to AlanLittle:

To be changed when the new holds come out i believe.
Lord_ash2000 - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

I'm no fan no of those sorts of runny, jumpy parkour style problems either so I just don't climb them. It's a shame because it limits the available problems for me to try and takes up room on the wall. to be fair I don't see anyone really giving them a go so maybe they'll be less likely to set things in the future when they see no one climbing them.

I suppose that is what it comes down to really, they set problems people like, if they find most people don't climb certain style routes then that style will stay a minority as otherwise people will stop going to their wall. Thankfully I have the The Bowderstone to play on and we also have a private woody to use as well so the wall is not my only option.

But when I do go to the wall, I go to climb a large number quality problems, usually on the harder/est circuits so its some what annoying when some of the space for my problems gets taken up with stupid jumpy things and you've got volumes all over the place at the bottom of walls which get in the way of other routes.

Saying all that I also don't like climbing on slabs indoors but I can't really argue they aren't climbing, I'm just crap at them so don't do them much, maybe there is some of that in the running dyno style routes.
HeMa on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

That's a bit odd? I mean 'proper' crankin' problems don't take much space (small crimps here and there) vs. these coordination things (big features & boxes etc.). So it seems rather strange that the balance would be shifted more akin to the comp style things... unless by balance you mean there wasn't any in the past, so none should exist now...


BTW. considering that indeed these kinds of problems are really common in comps, where should those that compete train? Outside?
stp - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

I think the crux is that you see it as training yet for many people indoor walls are not merely training but something in their own right. If you see it as training for rock then that implies certain types of problem, certain styles of climbing. But if you see it as something different to outdoor climbing then the setting can be far more creative.

I think many people these days embrace the latter view. Indoor walls have progressed to such an extent they're very often better than the real thing these days. I think younger climbers, who started their climbing on modern indoor walls, understand that and so don't prioritize outdoor climbing as the be all and end all that older climbers seem to.
C Witter on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:
I think there are a few arguments against what you're saying.

First, we repeat ad nauseam the axiom that "the best climber is the one having the most fun". Ipso facto, if people have fun on these problems, then they must be good climbers, doing good climbs.

Second, indoor climbing has clearly become a particular sub-activity within climbing that many people actually do more of than outdoor climbing. I know a good number of people from the local wall who never climb outside. Personally, my passion is trad, but I respect that they're doing something they enjoy in a way that fits with their lives. So, if indoor climbing has become an activity in its own right, of course setters and climbers should explore the full range of possibilities presented by their medium. Anything less is merely conservative bs.

Third, currently we might struggle to think of outdoor routes with similar moves. But, wait ten years before you judge this. As many people have pointed out on the other thread, Johnny Dawes has already begun probing the possibilities of friction + dynamic motion. If today people are trying these antics in the gym, tomorrow they'll be inventing insane problems outside - things we've overlooked because they seemed improbable from today's mindset. So, in the long run, this kind of exploration indoors could lead to innovations in how we climb outdoors.

Nothing fun or challenging is redundant - unless in the sense that all climbing is 'redundant'.
Post edited at 12:14
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to C Witter:
Good point - it'd be interesting to see what new style of routes start to develop over the next generation. Of course I never mentioned that I think it is redundant in the most general sense (I still try and fail on them regularly as they are fun), but specifically for existing outdoor routes.

My original intention was to probe some of the more experienced climbers to gauge what movements they thought were not as useful outdoors that are currently in trend as the ones I mentioned. Indeed I count myself as a 'young climber' with ambitions of being a better outdoor climber, though indoor bred.
Post edited at 12:28
Neil Williams - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> Relevant or not, they are fun!

Exactly.

Indoor climbing is becoming a sport in its own right - and why not? It's an enjoyable activity with its own challenges.
Richard Wainwright on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to AlanLittle:

Isnt all climbing feet follow hands?
Fraser on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to AlanLittle:

> Well there is the argument - currently being made on the other thread about running problems - that it's relevant for training foot/eye/multi limb coordination.

But it's really only coordination training for those types of sequences of moves. I never have, and more than likely never will, come across the requirement to do them outdoors. Anywhere. Other than possibly crossing a stream with overhanging branches at the end!
Andy Johnson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

> moves such as 'double dynos' and 'run and jump dynos'

I've never see this at the wall I use, AW Stockport. Is this something that is more likely at bouldering-only places?
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to andyjohnson0:

They are very common at the walls I frequent - mostly bouldering yes. Though I have come across relatively reasonable double dynos on routes, I have yet to see a running dyno. Imagine a running dyno on lead 10m up...fun...
paul__in_sheffield - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

I’ll have to check, but I’m pretty sure Deliverance has been sent Parcours style, and there’s at least one double dyno on Minus 10 wall.
I realised when I was mulling over this thread that there’s generally a circuit at the Works that I’m trying to complete, and enjoying it just as much as I enjoy climbing outdoors. Given work and the British weather I feel pretty luck to enjoy both.
beardy mike - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

Is it me or is this all a bit anti fun? I find the volume type routes quite fun to do. Whether they are accurate training for outdoors, is frankly to me totally irrelevant. It's just something that's a bit different and fun. If it's fun it means I go to the bouldering wall and whilst I'm there I also do other problems which means I'm training and getting stronger. Personally I'd rather they have the odd fun route mixed in with things which are a bit more serious as it means I get to momentarily overcome my mid life angst and forget that I'm over 40. certainly at redpoint in bristol the volumes routes tend to be less of the sprinting parkcour style and more of the balancy Johny Dawes style problem but I can't say I'd be dramatically bothered if there were parkour style routes too...
dr_botnik - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

> It seems to be the trend in many bouldering/climbing walls that I frequent that many 'competition' style problems are now being set with moves such as 'double dynos' and 'run and jump dynos' that I've never seen executed outdoors, let alone do them myself.

Wings of Unreason (E4 6a)
The Shiznit (f7A)
The Buckstone Dyno (f7B)
Deliverance (f7B+) (have seen this done one handed)
Joe's Arête (f6A) (likewise, common to see the one hand challenge here)

Lighten up, it's just a bit of fun
Ramblin dave - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to pasbury:
> Relevant or not, they are fun!

Hmmm. I don't much like parkour-style problems, but when it comes down to it my objection is less that they aren't valuable training and more that I don't actually find them much fun. I'm not particularly good at them, and while some things that you're not very good at can be fun to work on, this sort of problem just leaves you feeling like a prize tit when you've made sure you've got a clear section of wall, psyched yourself up, taken a three metre run-up and then just hopped awkwardly off the first foothold and back on to the mat.
Post edited at 13:13
cb294 - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Richard Wainwright:

> Isnt all climbing feet follow hands?

You very clearly are not an offwidth connoisseur!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUOl0M2cHbw

CB
HeMa on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

> ....I have yet to see a running dyno.

Here ya go, a lovely running start dyno to a nice 7B problem... BTW. the starting hold is indeed the big ledge... and the crux isn't the running start dyno.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLTcLdNWgY8

HeMa on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> Hmmm. I don't much like parkour-style problems, but when it comes down to it my objection is less that they aren't valuable training and more that I don't actually find them much fun. I'm not particularly good at them, and while some things that you're not very good at can be fun to work on, this sort of problem just leaves you feeling like a prize tit when you've made sure you've got a clear section of wall, psyched yourself up, taken a three metre run-up and then just hopped awkwardly off the first foothold and back on to the mat.

Think of it this way... you didn't cheesegrate down to wall with yer nose...

Akin to this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU0DBgD1I6M
trouserburp - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to beardy mike:

Got asked to move out of the stretching space last week because some parkour group were using it- but not because i was in the way of them running about, just in the way of them videoing it on their phones!

Whatever I can't really be bothered to stretch anyway. Indoor walls aren't just for outdoor climbers anymore and haven't been for a long time, London walls probably less than 10% climb outdoors. Why would they tailor it to the needs of the few?
Ramblin dave - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to HeMa:

Have you been secretly filming my climbing sessions?

But yes, it's all about the loss of face, really:
http://betamonkeys.co.uk/face/
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to dr_botnik:

Can't you have a discussion and still have fun?
BTW those are all examples of regular dynos (very common outdoors).

THIS is a double dyno:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbKIbmJgDob/?hl=en
Jon Greengrass on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to HeMa:

Is the crux reaching the big ledge by actually climbing to it?
Mark Kemball - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to cb294:

Thanks for that link.
cheese@4p - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to HeMa:

That's a lovely looking piece of rock scenery.
steveriley - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

Similar but different isn't it. As well as a whole pile of people that rarely/ever go outside, I can think of at least one wall where the setter rarely climbs outside. Double disconnect. And you'll never match the rich variety of holds, rock types and 3D angles from a few bits of plywood and some volumes. And nobody wants to tweak a tendon on stupid small holds inside, so they're out. And rubbish footholds, they're mostly out.

It's no real surprise that people should get spanked if/when they do venture out. Last week I did a fairly modest 5+ you really couldn't replicate inside. And vice versa of course.
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to HeMa:

That looks like an awesome problem.
HeMa on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Nope, nasty ass mantle onto nothing...
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to steveriley:

Goes back to the point that indoor and outdoor climbing are becoming increasing different things and activities in their own rights - I'm fine with that, indoor comp style climbing is just not my thing.
Robert Durran - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> Relevant or not, they are fun!

I don't go to the wall to have fun. I go to train. Any fun is entirely incidental.
Robert Durran - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to andyjohnson0:

> Is this something that is more likely at bouldering-only places?

No, Ratho is the best routes wall in the country but the bouldering room sometimes seems more or less pointless for my purposes. Apart from the systems board which is truly awesome.

SDM on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

Look at the record of the competition climbers when they retire from comps or on the rare occasions they manage to squeeze in some time on rock. Despite very limited experience on rock, they still manage to perform at or near to the cutting edge. I'm not sure training on these comp style problems is as useless for rock as you think it is.
Malarkey on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

"Others have seen what is and asked why. I have seen what could be and asked why not."
Picasso
Cloverleaf - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

The room is also frequently filled with kids coaching groups in the evenings which means it's virtually impossible to actually get on any problems. Same goes for the instructors who decide to commandeer the entire section of newly set routes for their group for several hours.
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to SDM:

Surely, the level of climbing from competition climbers doesn't just occur from training dynamic comp style problems? Surely they train specifically on more conventional style climbs too. Not to mention the fact that most comp climbers are involved in other disciplines of climbing?
Malarkey on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to SDM:

Indeed - these problems are just extending the talents needed for dynos or balance problems (strength, coordination, judgment, commitment) further than might occur naturally or you might be comfortable doing outdoors.

Transferable training I think.
Shani - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:
1950 - "Let's admit, that climbing on Stanage/the Cromlech is redundant in alpine climbing"
1972 - "Let's admit, that freeclimbing is redundant in aid climbing"
1980 - "Let's admit, that single-pitch climbing is redundant in climbing"
1984 - "Let's admit, that bolted climbing is redundant in trad climbing"
1985 - "Let's admit, that slate is worthless crap"
1988 - "Let's admit, that bouldering is redundant in climbing"
1991 - "Let's admit, that indoor climbing is redundant in outdoor climbing"
1992 - "Let's admit, that campussing is redundant in trad climbing"
1996 - "Let's admit, that outdoor bouldering is redundant in climbing"
2003 - "Let's admit, that deep water soloing is redundant in climbing"
2016 - "Let's admit, that speed climbing is redundant in climbing" (Shani/me)
2017 - "Let's admit, that indoor move is redundant in outdoor climbing" (you!)

I figure we are like ants; edge-feeders. We explore the limits of our environment like an ant on a leaf. As such, every sport will diversify and specialise as it matures. Reinvention is constant. Let's embrace it.

EDIT: All dates are approximate!
Post edited at 14:14
Robert Durran - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Cloverleaf:

> The room is also frequently filled with kids coaching groups in the evenings which means it's virtually impossible to actually get on any problems.

Occasionally, but they are only there for a limited time and the instructors are good at making sure other climbers have their space. I can often have the systems board more or less uninterrupted on my own. And other evenings the comp wall (with world cup final routes still in situ!) more or less to myself. We are fantastically lucky to have Ratho and shouldn't complain about minor inconveniences occasionally.
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Shani:

I'm just glad I'm going to be quoted in climbing discourse.
TheFasting on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to AlanLittle:

I haven't done much climbing on Moon Boards yet but from what I see the type of climbing one does on them looks very similar to what I do when bouldering outdoors (except the high foot movements). Do you think that's the case?
Andy Hardy on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to SDM:

> Look at the record of the competition climbers when they retire from comps or on the rare occasions they manage to squeeze in some time on rock. Despite very limited experience on rock, they still manage to perform at or near to the cutting edge. I'm not sure training on these comp style problems is as useless for rock as you think it is.

Like Shauna Coxsey outside, failing on a VS!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvmi62dtgsM

HeMa on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to TheFasting:

Moon problems do indeed try to mimic outdoors climbing. And for training purposes, it’s rather good.
TheFasting on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to HeMa:
My gym is getting one by the end of the mountain (edit: *month. Freudian slip), so I'm very excited about doing some of my limit sessions on it.
Post edited at 15:09
Lemony - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:
These things do exist outdoors:
Lupino Lane (f8A)
Thundering Apoplexy (f7B)
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Lemony:

I wasn't clear - In my mind I was referring to stuff like this:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BbNS7ufHcHd/
and
https://www.instagram.com/p/BbKIbmJgDob/?hl=en
stp - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Thought that was ace. Hilarious when Pete said they were going to treat Ramshaw Crack like a world cup boulder problem. Is there anything less like a world cup problem than Ramshaw Crack?
Lemony - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

How is the first of those particularly different to: "Ungradeable run and jump but one of the finest and most fun and unique problems in the UK. run over 2 boulders, and take 2 steps up the wall then fly out rightwards 2 handed hoping to collide with some opposing holds."
zmv - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to TheFasting:

Yes. Moonboards are very powerful and often with poor and akwardly placed feet. Fantastic for developing power for the outdoors. Ben Moon knows his stuff.
mouseliveson - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Lemony:

Ah I had missed that description. Right, sure they exist.
I just have never come across one myself.
Thank you for illuminating me with your climbing knowledge.
AlanLittle - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to TheFasting:



I don't think the movement patterns are realistic, and yes, unnaturally high foot positions are the issue. Very often the solution to an outdoor problem where you *feel* like you lack the necessary finger power is a subtle improvement in foot or body position. Or not so subtle - use the tiny smeary foot nubbin that is where you need it, not the bigger foothold that is somewhere else. Indoors, on the moonboard or otherwise, the the tiny smeary foot nubbin doesn't exist and you can't learn that kind of subtlety.

Whereas on the moonboard you probably *do* lack the necessary finger power, and you can develop it. So it's ace from that point of view.
wbo - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I don't go to the wall to have fun. I go to train. Any fun is entirely incidental

Can someone tickle Robert to cheer him up.

Personally I don't get much fitter on crimps. Big, steep sloping problems, and less injuries too

Lusk - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to wbo:

> Can someone tickle Robert to cheer him up.

It'll never work.
I always think of this with Robert ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE7kfWFpOz0



Robert Durran - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to wbo:

> Can someone tickle Robert to cheer him up.

I don't need cheering up. I love training and have a great deal of fun doing it - it's just that it's incidental to the main purpose of getting fitter and possibly less weak. I've always found that to get the most out of climbing it's best to take it seriously and the pleasure and fun will follow naturally.

> Personally I don't get much fitter on crimps. Big, steep sloping problems, and less injuries too

I find the opposite. I've always climbed open handed on everything and have had hardly any finger issues. It's the big moves on slopers that can get my elbows and shoulders.

TobyA on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Richard Wainwright:

> Isnt all climbing feet follow hands?


Watch a Pamela Shanti Pack video of her offwidthing for a negative answer.

TobyA on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to HeMa:

Isn't it easier just to the left? I'm sure I've done something on that section and can't do anything like 7B!
HeMa on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:

Yup. Bout 5 or so
bouldery bits - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> Relevant or not, they are fun!

Pah! Fun. Humph.
The Connor-Crabb - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

Of course, if you can't find anything set at your local wall that resembles 'outdoor climbing' (movement?) as you call it you could always make up your own problems using holds from different problems.....
keith-ratcliffe on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Shani:
Nailed it - Rust Never Sleeps.
TheFasting on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to AlanLittle:
I've just seen the way people move on it and it looks very similar to what my experience has been with outdoor bouldering. Crimpy and powerful moves with few choices for foot placements. But not as shitty foot holds as outdoors of course, that's true.
Post edited at 22:00
pasbury on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Shani:
Well from my experience, mucking about, trying silly moves in complete safety makes me realise how much more fun I could have had 30 years ago if I hadn’t listened to all those old tw*ts telling me what climbing was supposed to be.

Now that I’m an old twat I am reluctant to impose my views on anyone else.
Post edited at 23:48
Stuart en Écosse - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

> 'double dynos'

Ahem...

Double Dyno or Die (E5 6b)
SenzuBean - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

My wall has made a thing of setting “doubles” problems, where two people climb at the same time (pulling on arms, standing on heads, etc)
aln - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Look out mama there's a white boat coming up the river
HeMa on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to SenzuBean:

We Sometimes have such for our party comps. Good fun After a beer or five.
stp - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

I agree with you that the parkour type problems have little carry over to outside climbing but...

...when I think about it there are loads of specialist types of climbing that have little carry over to anything else. Those rounded bum top outs in Font seem to have little application elsewhere. Big foot off dynos in bouldering are extremely rare on routes. Even hand jamming, once considered an essential technique, seems pretty niche these days. It's interesting that Shauna Coxsey can be double world champ and receive and MBE from the queen for climbing without ever learning to hand jam.

I think the wide diversity of movement is part of what makes climbing interesting and the fact that we're still inventing new types of movement is great credit to the creativity of climbers.
mark s - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

I've done dynos a few times on routes
Robert Durran - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to stp:

> Even hand jamming, once considered an essential technique, seems pretty niche these days. It's interesting that Shauna Coxsey can be double world champ and receive and MBE from the queen for climbing without ever learning to hand jam.

You've got this completely the wrong way round. It simply shows how niche specialist bouldering has become. Hand jamming is still an essential technique for any mainstream well rounded climber.

TobyA on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to stp:

I did wonder if Shauna's inability to climb The Crank (VS 5a) might have been played up a bit for fun also? I guess if she had laybacked it, she would have strolled up it.

But then I've seen Shauna in my local Lidl, so I know she is indeed a mortal like the rest of us.... ;)
Bulls Crack - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

Good training for running away from proper climbing
SDM on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> You've got this completely the wrong way round. It simply shows how niche specialist bouldering has become. Hand jamming is still an essential technique for any mainstream well rounded climber.

Maybe for low-mid grade UK trad. But in most of the rest of the world, handjamming is not a mainstream technique any more. Look at the grades that handjamming routes get in the sport areas of France and Spain etc. I suck at jamming yet even I can get great rests on supposedly sustained routes because the routes there just aren't graded with a presumption that you are capable of jamming. On the rare occasion that you come across a route there with a jamming crux, they tend to be massively overgraded compared to what they would get in the UK.

Which techniques you deem to be niche mostly depends on the branch(es) of climbing you specialise in.
Timmd on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to C Witter:
> I think there are a few arguments against what you're saying.

> First, we repeat ad nauseam the axiom that "the best climber is the one having the most fun". Ipso facto, if people have fun on these problems, then they must be good climbers, doing good climbs.

> Second, indoor climbing has clearly become a particular sub-activity within climbing that many people actually do more of than outdoor climbing. I know a good number of people from the local wall who never climb outside. Personally, my passion is trad, but I respect that they're doing something they enjoy in a way that fits with their lives. So, if indoor climbing has become an activity in its own right, of course setters and climbers should explore the full range of possibilities presented by their medium. Anything less is merely conservative bs.

> Third, currently we might struggle to think of outdoor routes with similar moves. But, wait ten years before you judge this. As many people have pointed out on the other thread, Johnny Dawes has already begun probing the possibilities of friction + dynamic motion. If today people are trying these antics in the gym, tomorrow they'll be inventing insane problems outside - things we've overlooked because they seemed improbable from today's mindset. So, in the long run, this kind of exploration indoors could lead to innovations in how we climb outdoors.

> Nothing fun or challenging is redundant - unless in the sense that all climbing is 'redundant'.

The strength and agility and body awareness developed during (and for) climbing competitions, is always going to help more 'conventional' climbing anyway, too, I think.
Post edited at 09:49
stp - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

30 or 40 years ago I'd have agreed with you. But climbing has changed. It's continually evolving in fact and climbing today is very different to back then. Back then climbs followed natural weaknesses for gear and holds but today people are more interested in climbing the blank sections in between those features.

I don't think Shauna is an exception but a rather typical example these days. Every year at the CWIF comp Percy Bishton tends to set a jamming problem. The majority of competitors either can't do it or climb round it avoiding the jams. Even in the 90's I remember a route set at a national Foundry competition with a jam crack in the middle. This foiled loads of the competitors yet the routesetter said it was no more than E3, basic hand jamming.

The only place you really need to be able to jam is jamming cracks. Most routes aren't jamming cracks. And even some that are can be climbed without jamming at little increase in difficulty. If you think of climbing today as: sport, bouldering, indoor, and trad; it's only a small minority of trad where you have to be able to jam. Routes like Ramshaw Crack do exist but they're few and far between - a niche activity.
stp - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:

Yeah there was definitely a fun element to it. Pete's introductory lesson to jamming: the feet first, overhanging parallel sided, slippery wooden offwidth, was pretty funny I thought.

I agree she could have breezed The Crank had she laybacked it but the point was obviously for her to learn to jam.
Robert Durran - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to SDM:
> Maybe for low-mid grade UK trad. But in most of the rest of the world, handjamming is not a mainstream technique any more.

I think most American climbers would find that comment ridiculous.

> Look at the grades that handjamming routes get in the sport areas of France and Spain etc.

My point was that any well rounded climber would be proficient at jamming; if all you do is euro bolt-clipping or bouldering then you are not a well rounded climber (however good you might be at those specialities).

> Which techniques you deem to be niche mostly depends on the branch(es) of climbing you specialise in.

That a technique might seem niche within the narrow confines of that speciality does not mean it is niche in the overall scheme of things.
Post edited at 10:22
Robert Durran - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to stp:
> I don't think Shauna is an exception but a rather typical example these days. Every year at the CWIF comp Percy Bishton tends to set a jamming problem. The majority of competitors either can't do it or climb round it avoiding the jams.

That climbers based right next to the gritstone of the Peak can't jam just shows how niche and specialised bouldering has become - not that jamming is a niche technique. Any well travelled all round climber will be frequently held back by a lack of ability to jam.

> The only place you really need to be able to jam is jamming cracks.

Jams can often be found in relative isolation and are as good as a jug if you can use them. The inability to rest on a jug would be a weakness in any climber.
Post edited at 10:39
stp - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:
I agree that learning to jam is a useful technique but I don't think it's necessary for the bulk of climbing today. Where you or I might delight in a sneaky jam to rest on the younger fitter climbers either don't need the rest or just shake out without using a jam.


> Any well travelled all round climber will be frequently held back by a lack of ability to jam.

If today's top climbers can't jam it obviously hasn't held them back. And if a 'well travelled all round climber' can't jam that just confirms that it's become a niche technique.
Post edited at 11:29
TobyA on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to stp:

I suspect that even if Shauna has never handjammed before, which I remain a bit sceptical about, if she had worn crack gloves I'm sure she would have pissed up on just jams. Jamming can hurt, supposedly more so for women than men although I have tried a bit to confirm this without much success, and when you are as strong as Shauna I suspect laybacking the crank is just more comfy. But use crack gloves (or tape) and the pain is not much of an issue.
TobyA on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I think most American climbers would find that comment ridiculous.

And Nordics. And Australians. And Czech/East Germans -from those sandstone areas. And those are just the ones I know of. I think SDM seems to be making that category error that lots of British climbers seem to of thinking "the rest of the world" is the same as SE France and much of Spain.

Even from my little bit of climbing on Chamonix granite I would have thought climbers there would soon see that jamming is rather useful at times.

TobyA on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> The inability to rest on a jug would be a weakness in any climber.

Guilty as charged, at least on anything past vertical. But then again being weak is definitely my biggest weakness. ;-)
stp - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:

I'm not sure. I think hand jamming is quite a subtle technique. I remember when I was first learning I just couldn't get the jams to work at all. Then, after a while, it just clicked and suddenly hand jams became the best holds in the world. I think that's a pretty common experience.

It also seems to me that the better one's technique the less problem of jams hurting. To my mind a decent jam shouldn't hurt at all. Wide and flared jams can sometimes scrape skin and women's hands are smaller than men's so that could be a reason in some situations perhaps.
AlanLittle - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to TheFasting:

Depends what you boulder on I suppose. Most of my outdoor bouldering is on Frankenjura limestone, and choosing exactly which of the myriad of tiny pockets you try to squeeze a toe into is usually critical to getting any benefit at all from the tiny crappy handholds.
TobyA on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to stp:

I love jamming, have done it for years, all sorts of different types of rock, and will use jams as my first choice of hold when possible, but it still hurts. If you do it enough in a day, you end up with scratches and scrapes, and worse than that bruising which makes it more painful the next day.

I've just got two words for you. Jamming gloves. You'll see the light.

This was a trailer: UKC article on this coming soon. ;-)
ukb & bmc shark - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:

There are lots of ways to skin a cat/crush a route.

I did a fair bit of outdoor bouldering with my son over the summer which was interesting as he is mainly an indoor boulderer whereas climbing indoors is a last resort for me. The way we climbed was very different and he would seek out indoor type solutions to problems - typically bigger moves and throws.

He took two sessions to send my my long term project by getting a high heel hook and doing a committing cross through potentially coming off sideways from high up and then having to use a lot of core to do the last moves. I did it an old skool way using an awkward intermediate pinch which he hated.

I have subsequently gone back and re climbed the problem using his method. It took a lot of effort to commit to the cross through but when I did it I found it was substantially easier doing it this way so in this instance at least, the indoor move was most definitely not redundant in an outdoor climbing situation.
Timmd on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to stp:
> I don't think Shauna is an exception but a rather typical example these days. Every year at the CWIF comp Percy Bishton tends to set a jamming problem. The majority of competitors either can't do it or climb round it avoiding the jams. Even in the 90's I remember a route set at a national Foundry competition with a jam crack in the middle. This foiled loads of the competitors yet the routesetter said it was no more than E3, basic hand jamming.

I can remember reading about that at the time, and seeing the picture, a piece of climbing wall board had been bolted onto the side of an overhanging corner IIRC. Quite creative and simply done.
Post edited at 12:10
Robert Durran - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to stp:

> I'm not sure. I think hand jamming is quite a subtle technique. I remember when I was first learning I just couldn't get the jams to work at all. Then, after a while, it just clicked and suddenly hand jams became the best holds in the world. I think that's a pretty common experience.

I agree with you there. Jamming gloves won't make much difference if you havn't mastered the technique. And most jams don't hurt if you have got the technique.
TobyA on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:
> And most jams don't hurt if you have got the technique.

Just wait for the jamming gloves review to come out, I'm fully expecting the attached thread to be full of the macho "you're not doing it right if it hurts" stuff, you can fill your boots alongside all the other grump old hardmen of the cracks. ;-)

> Jamming gloves won't make much difference if you havn't mastered the technique.

And on this bit, I think they hugely encourage people to try and therefore get to master the technique.
Post edited at 12:25
Timmd on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:
I've noticed in pictures of US crack climbers that they routinely tape up, leading me to think that British climbers who say it doesn't hurt if you do it properly, don't do enough crack climbing to comment on hand protection. US crack climbers are climbers who go the distance. ;-)
Post edited at 12:46
Robert Durran - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:

> Just wait for the jamming gloves review to come out, I'm fully expecting the attached thread to be full of the macho "you're not doing it right if it hurts" stuff, you can fill your boots alongside all the other grump old hardmen of the cracks. ;-)

I've taped up in Utah for jam after jam after jam day after day after day, but never bothered in the UK.

> And on this bit, I think they hugely encourage people to try and therefore get to master the technique.

Fair point

In reply to Robert Durran:

> I've taped up in Utah for jam after jam after jam day after day after day, but never bothered in the UK.

Because of differences in the cracks or for cultural reasons?

Robert Durran - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to The Pulsing Motorik of Neu!:

> Because of differences in the cracks or for cultural reasons?

Just because there's so much of it.
AJM - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to TobyA:

> And on this bit, I think they hugely encourage people to try and therefore get to master the technique.

I certainly found the one time I tried making tape gloves my jamming suddenly magically "improved" because suddenly I could focus on the technique without worrying about it hurting.
In reply to TobyA:
Hmm. If we get organised to meet up again then bring the gloves ;-)

rocksol - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to yh001:
Totally agree Hard indoor probs and comp probs appear to be pure gymnastics on volumes or slopes which as soon as a few people repeatedly try them they become slippery and much harder Not good for rotator cuffs either!
I'm in the add crimpers problems for a bit of reality for people that climb trad onsight and outdoors as well as sport routes
Mind you this type of old fashioned climbers appear to be a disappearing breed (I'm 67 and probably couldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding anymore) and so this wouldn't appeal to the majority And as we know the majority rules Brexit anybody?
johncook - on 11 Nov 2017
In reply to rocksol:

I am 68 and just getting my arthritic hands back into crimps/small holds, as much of the European climbing above 6a seems to depend on them.
I love volumes and big open handed slopers almost as much as I like jamming!
Poolie - on 12 Nov 2017
stp - on 12 Nov 2017
In reply to rocksol:

> I'm in the add crimpers problems for a bit of reality for people that climb trad onsight and outdoors as well as sport routes

I know what you're saying though personally I don't like crimps indoors much as they seem just too brutal the first joint. Some say you should never crimp on indoor holds which sounds like a good idea but hard to do on small incuts. I like slighty bigger holds that are good for open handing. Slopers can be interesting, though not so much when weather is warm and humid.

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