/ GriGri vs Click-up

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GridNorth - on 10 Nov 2017
I've never been keen on the GriGri and prefer the Click-up but I've noticed that the latter seems to put twists in the rope which I have to constantly unravel as I lower climbers. Has anyone else noticed this? Is it perhaps the combination or rope and device, I use a Beal Joker 9.2 but it is fairly new. Is the GriGri better in this regard?

Al
jon on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

I reckon the culprit for twisting the rope is more often than not badly set up belays. By that I mean the equipper, not the climber.
GridNorth - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to jon:

Agreed, 2 opposing maillons being the worst culprits, but this was happening in single point lower-offs in Kalymnos.

Al
Fraser on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to jon:

> I reckon the culprit for twisting the rope is more often than not badly set up belays. By that I mean the equipper, not the climber.

Agreed. Two times 'bolt - mallion - chain - ring' is my preferred configuration.
jimtitt - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

The ClickUp (and the AlpineUp) have a bit of a reputation for this, though not as bad as the Megajul by all accounts.
GriGris don´ t appear to give any problems and are better anyway
GridNorth - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to jimtitt:

I'm sure we've had this conversation before. In what way better? I seem to recall you saying something about GriGri's being the only device that passed a hands free type test but with regard to handling and potential to get wrong I would say that the Click-up is the better device. If however I hear a consensus that Click-ups do indeed twist ropes I will consider a GriGri. I don't get many opportunities to compare the two as I'm too busy climbing Perhaps I should take some time out next time I visit the gym but in the meantime experiences please.

Al
Trythallj - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

I am very happy with my grigri 2, except that it seems to be made of a very soft alloy, that deposits itself on the rope and makes my hands filthy by the end of the day. Does everyone have this problem, or is mine particularly sofy Al? (Or, I suppose, a particularly hard rope?)

John
86inch - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to jimtitt:

> The ClickUp (and the AlpineUp) have a bit of a reputation for this, though not as bad as the Megajul by all accounts.

> GriGris don´ t appear to give any problems and are better anyway

Unless of course you're doing some "proper" climbing and therefore using twin/half ropes in which case a GriGri is as much use as a chocolate teapot.... But horses for courses (i've never climbed a sport route in my life... )
jezb1 - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to 86inch:
(i've never climbed a sport route in my life... )

You might enjoy it ;)
cb294 - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to Trythallj:

Hard, or merely a little dirty. Most sand particles are harder than steel, never mind aluminium alloys.
CB
GridNorth - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

All of this is very interesting but can we get back to the point of the post i.e. does the Click-Up twist the rope more than the GriGri and have other people experienced this. Looking at the two I cannot see why it should but I would welcome other opinions.

Al
Robert Durran - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> All of this is very interesting but can we get back to the point of the post i.e. does the Click-Up twist the rope more than the GriGri and have other people experienced this.

I think the Click-Up can twist the rope if you do not feed it in straight, so it just needs a little care. Don't know about the Grigri - I once tried to use one but I became so confused and my partner so exasperated that I've avoided them at all costs since. Ghastly contraptions.

yesbutnobutyesbut - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

I've used a Grigri for over 20 years. They don't twist ropes.
johncook - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

A friends' Click up twists the rope really quickly, like 3 or four routes and the rope needs pulling through to get rid of the twists and the rope is a mammut. Not used one myself, but can't see how it can be operator error.
jimtitt - on 10 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> If however I hear a consensus that Click-ups do indeed twist ropes I will consider a GriGri.

> Al

"One other slight downside of the Click-up is that it can twist the rope if you hold the dead rope slightly to the side when lowering. It is easy to correct this action by watching the rope and holding it more in line with the device but it does require care to avoid creating a twisted mess on long lowers."
Alan 'James. UKC review 2013.

"Tends to twist ropes on rappel." rgold, mountain project (referring to the Alpine Up).
And so on. I noticed it started to twist the rope when I was testing but the distances moved aren´ t that far so it isn´ t particularly interesting for me. The biggest hassle when I used one outdoors (apart from feeding slack isn´ t as good as a GriGri) is that on two occasions it was impossible to lower the leader due to friction elsewhere in the system, something that has been noted by others and doesn´ t occur with a Grigri. ClickUp is a great belay device but certainly not the best.
keith sanders - on 12 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

As you know Al I've been using 1 since they came out and yes sometimes the do twist the rope for the same reason as Jim says so it comes down to user , I always try to put the rope infront of me and feed the rope straight into the devise, or as you say the lower off is set up wrong.
I am waiting for the new revo from wild country to try out which hopefully eliminate it..
What I hate is the rope collecting alloy and dirt off the Crabs and my hands turning black as mentioned in the thread earlier.


keith s
GridNorth - on 12 Nov 2017
In reply to keith sanders:

I am aware of the advice,indeed the instructions that came with the device, that the rope should be kept directly in front so I do try to do this but this is not always practical. I'm going to do some testing at the gym tomorrow.

Al
Robert Durran - on 12 Nov 2017
In reply to jimtitt:

> ClickUp is a great belay device but certainly not the best.

Presumably you consider a gri-gri better? But they are very different devices and I'm sure that if someone only sport climbs then there may be no reason to look further than a gri-gri. However, the great strength of a click-up is that the belaying action is essentially the same as for any tube device, so for people who climb trad and sport, it is a natural (and probably safer) choice. I absolutely love my click-up and would rate it one of the best bits of kit I've ever owned. At least four of my regular partners now have one too - most people who use one seem to be rapid converts from normal tube devices for sport.

Fraser on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Out of curiosity, has any of then switched from a gri-gri to a click-up?
Robert Durran - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to Fraser:

No. Gri-gris seem to be used mostly by sport only climbers and there would be no reason to switch if they are happy with them.
Andy Chubb - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

Hi Al, I've noticed my rope getting twisted with a Click-Up, but could not see how the actual device could cause this to happen, so assumed it was down to the set up of the lower-off. So the comments from Jim Titt are interesting and I will make a conscious effort to feed the rope directly into the device in future and see if anything changes. Having said that, when using a Gri-Gri, I tend to let the dead end of the rope feed over the side of the device rather than come straight out over the shiny lip of the device, and am wondering now how that is any different from holding the rope off to one side of a Click-up.
I do prefer the Click-up for lowering as I find it easier to control, whereas a Gri-Gri can be a bit jerky, but maybe that's operator incompetence. I'll stick with the Click-up while I investigate further.
Andy
jimtitt - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

Why people prefer one device over another is a different matter to which is better. The inability or unwillingness to learn a new technique is yet another factor unrelated to how well a belay device functions.
harold walmsley - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to Fraser:
>Two times 'bolt - mallion - chain - ring' is my preferred configuration.

Stainless steel chains, rings and maillons all cost extra. At the moment in the UK most equippers pay for the gear themselves. If you don't like a lower off setup perhaps you could consider adding a chain and ring at your own expense, or maybe even do a whole crag?

Or at least do some re-equipping with support from a bolt fund. I know some are willing to spend to improve lower-offs particularly on popular crags.
Post edited at 09:22
Robert Durran - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to jimtitt:
> The inability or unwillingness to learn a new technique is yet another factor unrelated to how well a belay device functions.

My point is that for ever switching between two different techniques when trad and sport climbing is more likely to result in poor belaying or possibly dangerous mistakes. The user is at least as important a factor as the device. And I really don't see any point in learning new techniques without a significant advantage being gained.

As a matter of interest, how do you measure "how well a belay device functions"?
Post edited at 09:54
SGD - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

Hi Al

We have noticed the same with the Click Up. At 1st we thought it was just because we'd brought a cheap rope for use indoors but we soon noticed the same on our other ropes.

And yes we noticed when lowering someone at the indoor wall that the there was a tendency for the lowering hand to hold the rope out at an angle rather than directly under the device and you could see it putting twist into the rope.

We now pay particular attention to this point but we still suffer from pig tail rope possibly due to twist being part of the memory of the rope now? I’ve also started taking a standard ‘bug’ with us to the crag to combat right angle lower offs so I can ab off if need be.
Anotherclimber - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

After using a gri-gri for many years I got sucked in by the hype and bought a Click-up. I reckoned it would be less cumbersome. I gave it a good go but have concluded that for single pitch bolted routes - which is mainly what I do these days - it was a waste of sixty quid. All the downsides associated with Click-up usage described in this thread I agree with. For sport climbing I can't see that there's anything better than a gri-gri and one would have to be pretty mechanically inept in order not to become a competent user.
GridNorth - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

Thanks for all the input. I'm going to thoroughly test the GriGri and the Click-Up later today. Although I said I disliked the GriGri, if it doesn't twist the rope, I could be tempted to change. I had an original GriGri but using the recommended method for paying out slack felt too "cack handed" for me so I sold it. Perhaps the new ones are better because they are smaller. Apart from this twisting of the rope I still think the Click-Up is, overall, the better device especially for novices and those coming to sport from a trad background.

Al
GridNorth - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to Anotherclimber:

> All the downsides associated with Click-up usage described in this thread I agree with.

All what downsides? The only downside I know of and the one that is mentioned in the thread as well as being the point of my post is twisting the rope. I'm am honestly open minded about this. If I can be convinced that the GriGri is better, especially with regard to not twisting the rope, I would have no hesitation buying one. In all other respects there is nothing wrong with the Click-Up.

Al
Jim 1003 - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

I like the click up, you can give it to anybody to use as well without any learning issues, not had twisting issues...
Fraser on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to harold walmsley:

> >Two times 'bolt - mallion - chain - ring' is my preferred configuration.

> Stainless steel chains, rings and maillons all cost extra. At the moment in the UK most equippers pay for the gear themselves. If you don't like a lower off setup perhaps you could consider adding a chain and ring at your own expense, or maybe even do a whole crag?

Thanks, I do realise that. I've contributed to (re-)equipping costs - more than some but less than others -
in the past and I'll continue to do so. I was just stating my own L/O preference as that set-up, to me, is most easily replaced and tends not to kink ropes. But I agree, it is the expensive way.

RR on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

For me there are several different qualities that come into question, how:
• a fall is arrested; soft catch versus shock
• easy a belayer can pay out/give slack, for the novice and the all knowledgeable
• difficult or how easy I (of course “one”) can make a mistake with the device, think of not good getting the rope correct into the device (example: for myself I still remember lowering of –abseiling– with a double rope with a Reverso and clipping only one strand in the crab (late at night in hurry))
• forgiving the device is if you make a mistake – not paying attention on the climber –burning sun, etc– but still catching a fall if … ; an other aspect: if the device blocks and you have to pay out fast (thumb on GriGri, Alpine up click back) how easy is that done, etc
• easy to get a intuitive feel for the device (as an example: a Mega Jul and I, didn’t match, pfffh a terrible one night stand and never again)
• the learning curve, how self explaining is the device? I had to study the Click a little and never the GriGri one and two as far as I remember.
• much tangling of the rope comes from the device (I have experienced it with the Alpine up that if I don’t guide the ropes it becomes a mess). There seems to come a new Click up next year which may behaves better.

And take in account some of these points in relationship what kind of route is climbed. Bolts and/or pitons plus some nuts or all own placed gear. Is it one moulinette pitch or is it multi pitch. Can I see the climber? Taking rests, how well does it block.

I like the GriGri in the climbing room. Easy to check if the rope is correct in the device. You can climb with anyone.

But outdoors I prefer being belayed by an experienced climber and I like belaying with a Click.
jimtitt - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

> My point is that for ever switching between two different techniques when trad and sport climbing is more likely to result in poor belaying or possibly dangerous mistakes. The user is at least as important a factor as the device. And I really don't see any point in learning new techniques without a significant advantage being gained.

> As a matter of interest, how do you measure "how well a belay device functions"?

It´ s also possible that continually changing from one technique to another forces you to concentrate more and avoid complacency and laziness which can lead to poor belaying and dangerous mistakes.
Measuring how well a belay device functions is easy enough but laborious and requires a certain amount of ingenuity to devise appropriate test methods. I measure (where appropriate) the braking force it provides at various hand forces and with a suitable range of rope diameters, the hand force required for abseiling, the force required to feed the rope, the rope angle from parallel when the device starts to lock (grabbiness), the braking force provided if the device is threaded backwards, the ability to "self-lock" under various scenarios, the force required to unlock in guide mode if this is a feature and whatever else takes my fancy.
Then have a look at the various functions the device has and see which are particularly useful and work better, for example the GriGri can be used as a top-belay device on a fixed anchor and is almost certainly the best at this discipline for both ease of taking in and lowering, the ClickUp doesn´ t have this function at all.
Features such as weight and price aren´ t part of the function but I normally pay some attention to them, for example the weight advantage of certain devices is reduced or completely dissapear when the manufacturer needs to supply a steel karabiner to achieve acceptable life or if the customer needs to carry two extra karabiners to make use of certain functions. In the case of the ClickUp the short karabiner life makes the GriGri a better long-term financial investment.
More interesting is to work out why the various devices have differing characteristics.
GridNorth - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

Crikey. All I essentially asked was if the Click-up was more prone to twisting the rope than a GriGri. The consensus seems to be yes but.............................. not if you are careful with the direction of the "dead rope" I'll do some tests this afternoon and report back. All this other stuff may be useful to others but I have experience of most devices and I know which suits me, when and why. My ONLY issue is the twisting. I would add that I only experienced this in Kalymnos on 40 > metre routes. Shorter routes do not seem to be as problematical so testing indoors may be limited.

Al
RR on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

My experience is also that the Click up messes up the rope on longer routes. So you have to take some care and guide the cord.
The “But” is, that I it accept for other reasons.
Robert Durran - on 13 Nov 2017
In reply to jimtitt:

> It's also possible that continually changing from one technique to another forces you to concentrate more and avoid complacency and laziness which can lead to poor belaying and dangerous mistakes.

Maybe, but I think on balance I prefer myself and my partners to find holding a fall second nature rather than having to worry about what device they are using; a Gri-gri seems very counterintuitive when you are used to a tube device (no doubt vice-versa too).

> Measuring how well a belay device functions..........

So lots of factors. So, if you are not used to either style of device, choice would probably depend on expected use.
GridNorth - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:
Following the testing yesterday I have come to the conclusion that it is either the length of the route or the combination of the Click-Up with my new 9.2 Beal Joker that is causing the twisting. On 15 metre routes I did not experience any twisting of the rope even when it was flaked to one side. I also tried a GriGri 2. For paying out the Click-Up is an order of magnitude better and easier to use and requires no change in technique from a normal sticht plate type of device, in fact it's probably a little better. For lowering the GriGri is perhaps slightly better but not enough to warrant changing. I still find holding the rope with a finger against the lip of the device whilst trying to depress the lever with the thumb awkward and a little uncomfortable although I'm sure you would get used to it. I'm still not keen on the fact that you have to anticipate if you will need to change the way you hold it e.g. by changing the grip when the leader want slack in a hurry. GriGri 7/10 Click-Up 8/10.

Al
Post edited at 11:11
GridNorth - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:
Postscript: I've just read on the BMC site that holding the lever with the thumb is now NOT recommended when paying out slack quickly. Petzl still recommend it.
The BMC state that the only safe way to pay out rope is like a normal device. Personally I find it very hard to pay out slack quickly enough using this method. GriGi 6/10 Click-Up 8/10. There appear to be too many caveats and ways of misusing a GriGri for my liking.

Al
Post edited at 11:48

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