/ Zimbabwe

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john arran - on 14 Nov 2017
Seems to be a military coup in progress. Tanks rolling into Harare and rumours of the Presidential Guard barracks being blockaded.
Greasy Prusiks on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:

Where are you getting that? I can't find anything up to date.
Dave B on 14 Nov 2017
bouldery bits - on 14 Nov 2017
Greasy Prusiks on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to Dave B:
Thanks Dave.
Post edited at 21:31
Eric9Points - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:

It doesn't sound like the guy the military seems to be supporting would be much better unfortunately.

It's worth reading Chris Mullen's A View From The Foothills for his comments on African Governments. After working with them for several years he reluctantly came to the conclusion that Africa's problem were down to poor governance.
1
Dave Garnett - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to Eric9Points:

> After working with them for several years he reluctantly came to the conclusion that Africa's problem were down to poor governance.

True, although I think what Mugabe has done to a once beautiful and productive country goes some way beyond poor governance.
Tanke - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to Eric9Points:

Nothing to the do with west large corporations thieving valuable minerals from all Africa?colonialism is more covered with camouflage.
19
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:

Mugabe's children have left Zimbabwe. Let's hope it's relatively bloodless.
Dr.S at work - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

> Nothing to the do with west large corporations thieving valuable minerals from all Africa?colonialism is more covered with camouflage.

Or our Chinese cousins - what is your view of the Chinese blend of capitalism with communism.
Dave Garnett - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

> Nothing to the do with west large corporations thieving valuable minerals from all Africa?colonialism is more covered with camouflage.

This isn't the issue in Zimbabwe, it's more about Mugabe replacing one despicable tribal elite with another and progressively destroying his country's economy in the course of bribing his supporters.
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:

A tweet a few seconds ago with Fox news, BBC etc on it a few seconds ago says Mugabe's been overthrown ... but may be false ...
Kevster - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

If so, this would be real news, been a long time in the making. Has magabe actually been confirmed alive recently?
Gordon Stainforth - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Kevster:

All reports are that he was alive and well today. But house under siege for several hours. Another report has just come in (from Ethiopia!) saying 'Mugabe may have gone' ... The state broadcasting company has definitely been seized.

john arran - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

If it is a coup (which seems almost certain now) it doesn't appear to be a violent one.

Details are still unconfirmed but twitter is now full of suggestions that many politicians and other prominent people have been arrested by the military. No reports of any deaths yet, which is obviously welcome, although somewhat surprising if it's true.
Trangia on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Eric9Points:

> It doesn't sound like the guy the military seems to be supporting would be much better unfortunately.

Getting rid of any chance of Grace succeeding Robert is a least a glimmer of hope. She is relatively young, poisonous and deeply hated by the people.
Trangia on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> True, although I think what Mugabe has done to a once beautiful and productive country goes some way beyond poor governance.

It is indeed a beautiful country with lovely and friendly people. I was there last year.
ClimberEd - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

> Nothing to the do with west large corporations thieving valuable minerals from all Africa?colonialism is more covered with camouflage.

hahahahaha. Very well intentioned but also very naive, bless.

I'll go with poor governance interlinked with violence and conflict from the resource curse. And for those that really do have very few resources, that in itself is a huge handicap to stable development.
3
Gordon Stainforth - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Trangia:

Latest rumour is that Grace Mugabe has fled to Namibia.
john arran - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

This from a newspaper site in Kenya (where I happen to be now):

The Zimbabwean military is in charge of a paramilitary police support unit depot in Harare and has disarmed police officers there, an army source told Reuters.

"They are now in charge of all armoury, all gates and roads leading in or out of the camp. Arcturus Road (which leads to the camp) is closed and all Support Unit details with guns have been disarmed,” the source said.

South Africa's President Jacob Zuma spoke to Zimbabwean Mugabe on Wednesday, and Mugabe told him he was confined to his home but that he was fine, the South African presidency said in a statement.
Dauphin on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:

Who paid for the coup? Chinese? Us?

D
1
Postmanpat on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Dauphin:

> Who paid for the coup? Chinese? Us?

> D

Both? Sounds like they'd at least got the green light from Western interests.
Rigid Raider - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Dauphin:

This is the worrying aspect of it. The Chinese are in Zimbabwe in massive force so whoever replaces the old man will have to be in their pockets so that the pillaging and looting of resources can continue.
Nevis-the-cat - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

Given the sheer volume of AK47's on that continent, I'd say it was honours even between the west and Russia.
DubyaJamesDubya - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:

Sounds like vested interests flexing their muscles with no suggestion that it will improve the lot of poorer people in Zimbabwe.
pasbury on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Rigid Raider:

poorly governed countries are so much easier to asset strip don't you find?
Gordon Stainforth - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

That seems an unnecessarily gloomy, pessimistic view. It's hard to believe that things will actually continue to be as bad as under Mugabe, let alone worse. We'll just have to see.
DubyaJamesDubya - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> That seems an unnecessarily gloomy, pessimistic view. It's hard to believe that things will actually continue to be as bad as under Mugabe, let alone worse. We'll just have to see.

The analysis I've seen suggests that people who have been filling their boots were concerned that there power might be wrested from them. Business as usual seems the most likely outcome.
Post edited at 14:07
Fredt on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Dauphin:


> Who paid for the coup? Chinese? Us?

> D

My guess is Mugabe.
When the dust has settled, he'll step back into the leadership, all conquering hero.
3
Tanke - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Dr.S at work:
> Or our Chinese cousins - what is your view of the Chinese blend of capitalism with communism.

China is first economy to be soon in world with hundreds millions lifted to higher the incomes and new technology development from investments of capital from capitalists nations. That wealth is a stolen booty of the world from hundreds years theft of and of theft of workers created profit.China using this accumulate capital and technologies aggregate of capitalists to becomes the number one. If you see from Marxist eyes it is clear a capitalist stage productive force is the help to shot in arm of economy which had not been through before that stage(Lenin uses same approach with NEP after class war large devestation of productive forces and production levels) but what comes next? Communist Party create this conditions and own large segment of companies or all, Xi Jinping speeches 9 National Congress of the Communist Party of China he say- 'sinicization of Marxism'meaning a Cina form of socialism workers possess high amount of means of productions but not all of use capitalist market economy combine.Ruling class continue as workers party of Communism with economic success meteoric and most important rule-no to privatization as economic model.More continuing of this success using the same model to raise more people to high incomes in time will see graduation to more a orthodox Marxism to redistributing of wealt and need balance of classes which is like any capitalist society but not socialist one.
Post edited at 21:35
9
toad - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

Please.

PARAGRAPHS!!!!
mypyrex - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

Do you ever express yourself coherently?
6
mypyrex - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:
Looking at recent pictures of Mugabe I do find myself wondering if he has actually been in control for the last few years.

He looks a bit senile now and I do wonder if his wife is or has been pulling the strings.
Tanke - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to mypyrex:

Apologize for language I am still learning this everyday now.
Dr.S at work - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

Interesting, thank you.

So you perceive the current chinese use of some capitalist structures as a neccesary step along the road to marxism, perhaps one that Russia skipped past too quickly after 1917?
Moley on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

I've given that post a "like" for effort
summo on 16 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

China has capitalist policies for business, communism to control it's people. It might not work long term as the two don't always mesh, currency manipulation, borrowing etc.. It might all crash, but they'll have surpassed the USA by then which seems like their goal.

Anyway back to Zimbabwe, looking hopeful so far. Hopefully the returning VP being rather elderly will say let the dust settle, then have a fair election in 12 months time.
Pete Pozman - on 16 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

> Apologize for language I am still learning this everyday now.

I thought I was in on the joke. Apparently this is real.
Dave Garnett - on 16 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

> China is first economy to be soon in world with hundreds millions lifted to higher the incomes and new technology development from investments of capital from capitalists nations. That wealth is a stolen booty of the world from hundreds years theft of and of theft of workers created profit.China using this accumulate capital and technologies aggregate of capitalists to becomes the number one.

Or, China is paying Zimbabwe desperately needed hard currency for its chromium and iron and building infrastructure that its own government seems utterly incapable of doing. For various reasons we haven't been helping much either.

The truth is probably somewhere between.

Interestingly, I found this:
https://www.dailynews.co.zw/articles/2017/10/10/govt-moves-to-ban-chrome-exports

Can't imagine it would have been a popular move with the Chinese.
Dave Garnett - on 16 Nov 2017
In reply to Trangia:

> It is indeed a beautiful country with lovely and friendly people. I was there last year.

Did you climb? I had a great trip to the Mutorashanga /Great Dyke area with Ed February and the Cape Town guys back in the 90s. We did some new routes and, especially, repeated some of what the local guys had recently been putting up. Beautiful granite kopjies, great crack climbing - I'm pretty sure most of the people we climbed with left the country eventually...
Cú Chullain - on 16 Nov 2017
In reply to Tanke:

That is a word salad.
Dave Garnett - on 16 Nov 2017
Trangia on 16 Nov 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> Did you climb? I had a great trip to the Mutorashanga /Great Dyke area with Ed February and the Cape Town guys back in the 90s. We did some new routes and, especially, repeated some of what the local guys had recently been putting up. Beautiful granite kopjies, great crack climbing - I'm pretty sure most of the people we climbed with left the country eventually...

No, but spent a couple of days in the Matopo Hills. Incredible granite kopjies and huge boulders. Looks like a climber's paradise, although not certain if climbing is permitted? Also because of the vegetation access could be a problem.

Went to World's View where Rhodes is buried - amazing place.
Post edited at 12:53
malk - on 17 Nov 2017
In reply to toad: seems to make more sense if translated to ukrainian and then back to english;)

> China is first economy to be soon in world with hundreds millions lifted to higher the incomes and new technology development from investments of capital from capitalists nations. That wealth is a stolen booty of the world from hundreds years theft of and of theft of workers created profit.China using this accumulate capital and technologies aggregate of capitalists to becomes the number one. If you see from Marxist eyes it is clear a capitalist stage productive force is the help to shot in arm of economy which had not been through before that stage(Lenin uses same approach with NEP after class war large devestation of productive forces and production levels) but what comes next? Communist Party create this conditions and own large segment of companies or all, Xi Jinping speeches 9 National Congress of the Communist Party of China he say- 'sinicization of Marxism'meaning a Cina form of socialism workers possess high amount of means of productions but not all of use capitalist market economy combine.Ruling class continue as workers party of Communism with economic success meteoric and most important rule-no to privatization as economic model.More continuing of this success using the same model to raise more people to high incomes in time will see graduation to more a orthodox Marxism to redistributing of wealt and need balance of classes which is like any capitalist society but not socialist one.

China will become the first economy in the coming years, when hundreds of millions of people will rise to increase revenues and develop new technologies at the expense of capital investments from capitalist countries.

This wealth is the stolen extraction of the world from hundreds of years of abduction and theft of profit-making workers. China, using this, accumulates capital and technology, the capitalist unit becomes the first.

If you see from the point of view of Marxism, then it is clearly expressed that the productive power of the capitalist stage is to assist in solving an economy that has not been before this stage (Lenin uses the same approach from the NEP after the class war, the great impact of the productive forces and levels production) and what's next?

The Communist Party creates these conditions and owns a large segment of companies or all, Xi Jinping's speech at the 9th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, he says that the "blueprint of Marxism," which means the form of the socialist form of Sina, has a large amount of productive assets, but not everything used capitalist market economy combines itself. The class of regulation continues as a working party of communism with economic success, a meteoric and most important norm, not privatization as an economic model.

To continue this success with the same model to increase the number of people to high incomes in time will see the release of more orthodox Marxism for the redistribution of powers and the need for a balance of classes that resembles any capitalist society, but not socialist.

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