/ Twin roping

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harry 600 - on 14 Nov 2017
Hi guys,
I’m an instructor at a small Climbing wall, I have two clients who want to lead (twin rope) with one, single rope. I have given them my opinion but they want to hear from other climbers.

Please let me know what you think.
MFB - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:

Tell em they can't, need 2 twins
Ron Rees Davies - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:

Assuming you mean indoor lead climbing, what are your/their concerns about their system?

If one part of the (single rated) rope runs, unhindered, from belayer through belay device and a set of bolts to a safe knot on the climber, that should be safe, whatever happens to the second part of the rope.
MFB - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

Have I misunderstood, I think they want to lead on a rope only rated as a twin and at a wall you shouldnt
Greasy Prusiks on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:

Do you mean they want to tie into both ends of a single then use it as a double?
Ron Rees Davies - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to MFB:

I'm not certain. OP needs to clarify.

Allowing lead climbing on a single strand of half/twin rated rope wouldn't be a good idea, from an insurance point of view even if not a real risk.

Tying in to both ends of a half rope and using it as if it was 2 half ropes of the same colour should still be fine, just a bit more stretchy than a single so more care needed until after 2nd bolt.

Tying in to both ends of a single rope and clipping 2 sets of bolts should be fine, but could be more painful if both ropes come tight at the same time..
AlanLittle - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:
You need to be clearer about what you mean by

> lead (twin rope) with one, single rope

You mean lead on a doubled single rope clipping it as a twin, i.e. both strands into every quickdraw? Why on earth do they want to do that?

If the rope is triple certified as a twin then I suppose there'd be no obvious safety argument against it as long as they're sure it's long enough to lower off doubled.

Impact forces in falls will be a lot higher than using it as a single - I recall reading somewhere the 1.4x the single impact force is a realistic figure, not double - but that shouldn't be such a big deal with typical climbing wall fall factors on bolts.

Or do you mean they want to lead on one twin rope? In which case no way, and your wall would probably be in deep trouble liability wise if you knowingly allowed such a thing.
Post edited at 21:53
Webster - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:

TBH im slightly worried that you are an instructor at a climbing wall given your lack of clarity on what a single/double/twin rope is/isn't used for...
MFB - on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to Webster:

He's 20 and possibly dealing with old git who's been climbing for years, oh hang on!
petegunn on 14 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:
https://petzlsolutions.com/technicalsolutions/half-rope-vs-twin-rope

Show them this as it comes from a manufacturer
Rather than "the bloke down the pub says"
Post edited at 23:25
AlanLittle - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to petegunn:
Doesn't necessarily win the OP's argument though. If the (we suspect probably) owd gits are using a triple rated rope folded in half, then it's eccentric behaviour but perfectly safe.

(At my local the OP could still point at the "minimum rope length 50 metres" sign, unless their triple rated rope is a hundred metres)

My suspicion: OP is dealing with people who have years of experience climbing well protected British trad on half ropes, where you can basically be on a toprope on the hard bits most of the time. Now they have discovered that on a single rope you sometimes actually have to go above the gear, and if you want to be on a toprope that's even worse because you have to pull out armfuls of slack to achieve it. They find this alarming and wish to return to the safety & comfort of half rope toproping. My source for this is of course pure speculation and definitely not personal experience in any way
Post edited at 06:31
David Coley - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:

Assuming you mean that they want to lead with a half rope folded in two, clipping alternate bolts with either strand, sounds perfectly safe. Assuming they know what they are doing and the rope is long enough to get the leader back to the ground.
john arran - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:

I suggest people refrain from giving further advice until the OP has clarified:
1) How many ropes the climbers are intending to use
2) What is the the rating (single, half, twin or some combination thereof) of each rope
3) Which strands are intended being clipped into which bolts

Until then, the advice given under different assumptions as to what the OP meant are likely to be confusing at best, perhaps dangerously so.
richlan - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:

I agree, but this statement from the OP "I’m an instructor at a small Climbing wall" is rather alarming as his use of terminology is so confusing.
GridNorth - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to john arran:

Quite right but in all fairness the OP seemed a little unclear in the first place and it is not unreasonable to assume that as an Instructor when he says twin rope he knows what he is talking about.

Al
AlanLittle - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

It shouldn't be, but since twin ropes are almost never used in the UK I suspect the majority of British climbers don't know what the term actually means.
Postmanpat on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to richlan:

> I agree, but this statement from the OP "I’m an instructor at a small Climbing wall" is rather alarming as his use of terminology is so confusing.

I suspect that the problem is with his syntax and grammar rather than his climbing knowledge. I blame "progressive" education methods
RyanS - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:
This a question better asked on the MTA forum (are you a member?).

Either way: your advice / answer is relatively simple, especially from a professional point of view: all equipment must be used in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

If, as I think you suggest, they want to lead on one rope that is rated only as a twin, then the answer is no as it directly conflicts the manufacturers advice.

Be aware that some ropes are "triple rated." Look up their specific rope before you answer.

Ryan
L Larefia on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:

"I have two clients who want to lead (twin rope) with one, single rope."

As an instructor surely you could at least phase this so that you do not have ambiguity.

For twin what do you actually mean 1/2 or Twin these are two very different things?

As for your client using a single rope they are perfectly safe using a single rope, but I don't
think you mean that.

Finally where are you an instructor I would like to avoid that establishment if possible
RyanS - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Larefia:
Give him a break: You hardly need to be an expert on climbing equipment to be an indoor instructor. He is absolutely doing the right thing (albeit in the wrong place) and asking advice when he doesn't know the answer to something.

A young instructor improving his knowledge, asking advice and developing himself is not a ticket for older climbers to try and make him look small, or to attempt to feed their own ego by positioning themselves "above" him.

He's 17 and works at a small indoor wall he may have never even seen a twin rope before.
Post edited at 15:18
L Larefia on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to RyanS:

"You hardly need to be an expert on climbing equipment to be an indoor instructor."

I quite like my instructors to instruct and educate, in that respect I would expect them to be expert in
whatever field they profess to be instructing in. Knowing the different types of ropes is not an unreasonable
expectation.
As an instructor you will be aware of the need to communicate at all levels clearly and succinctly, the OP has failed
in that respect as well.



AlanLittle - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Larefia:

I think it's time to give up unless/until the OP comes back.
RyanS - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Larefia:

He's not "your instructor."

17 years old. Just starting out. An indoor wall is a place you will not encounter twin ropes very often. It is perfectly plausible he does not yet understand this type of equipment. For most climbers this doesn't become relevant until multipitch climbing, which requires a much higher qualified instructor.

Instead of putting someone down, especially a new instructor, try applauding his good judgement in seeking advice, and encourage him on his journey. Your ridiculous, insulting and holier than thou attitude will accomplish nothing other than putting him off seeking advice again.

Try supporting other climbers and being kind to people, thats what the climbing community is about.
L Larefia on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to RyanS:

Good judgement in seeking advice I agree.

A fundamental like knowing what rope to use and when. I take for granted in ANY instructor. Regardless of that rope being half, twin, single, dynamic or static.

I guess it highlights the reality of paper qualifications and someone saying I am an instructor versus experience which have been argued to the n'th degree on here in the past.


RyanS - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to Larefia:

We can agree that the term "Climbing Instructor" is very vague and could be interpreted to mean lots of different things.

You may or may not be aware that Mountain Training is trying to address this confusion:

http://www.mountain-training.org/latest-news/what’s-in-a-name

There are, of course, a variety of opinions on this but ultimately I would encourage any climber looking for instruction to educate themselves as to how qualified they need that instructor to be.
john arran - on 15 Nov 2017
In reply to harry 600:

I'd be the first to congratulate harry 600 on his success in reeling in large numbers of fish (myself included) from under his bridge.

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