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On the first weekend of November, over 400 women from eight countries (including a group of seven from Iceland!) converged on Bloc Climbing in Bristol for the seventh annual Women's Climbing Symposium.
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Rebecca Ting reports.
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In reply to Derry:
I know! I was at Redpoint on the day after, was talking to someone who went, asked who the speakers were, and when she replied "oh...and a Lynn somebody" I blurted out "Lynn Hill! "It goes, boys!", first free ascent of The Nose!!" like a gushing fanboy (which I am). Big coup. Am dead jealous I couldn't hear her (being a bloke). Sounds like a great event.
I know! I was at Redpoint on the day after, was talking to someone who went, asked who the speakers were, and when she replied "oh...and a Lynn somebody" I blurted out "Lynn Hill! "It goes, boys!", first free ascent of The Nose!!" like a gushing fanboy (which I am). Big coup. Am dead jealous I couldn't hear her (being a bloke). Sounds like a great event.
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In reply to UKC News:
What's the argument for a women only Symposium? Climbing seems a fairly non-sexist sport.
What's the argument for a women only Symposium? Climbing seems a fairly non-sexist sport.
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In reply to UKC News:
Lynn Hill!? I'd have cut my bits off and borrowed my wife's leotard to have seen that.
Lynn Hill!? I'd have cut my bits off and borrowed my wife's leotard to have seen that.
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
Bits or no bits your mind would still have been for the patriarchy so no entry,sorry.
Bits or no bits your mind would still have been for the patriarchy so no entry,sorry.
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In reply to scot1:
It kind of prompts the idea of a Mens' Climbing Symposium ..... no? Alright. I'll leave quietly.
It kind of prompts the idea of a Mens' Climbing Symposium ..... no? Alright. I'll leave quietly.
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In reply to Chris_Mellor:
Women are still terribly oppressed though, even the Prime Minister. The same goes for Nicola Sturgeon. There's a glass ceiling
Women are still terribly oppressed though, even the Prime Minister. The same goes for Nicola Sturgeon. There's a glass ceiling
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In reply to scot1:
Men and women are wired up differently in many ways. For instance men produce about 15 times as much testosterone than women. That hormone is responsible for traits like aggression, domination etc. So if women want to have symposium that's definitely not going to be dominated by men, men's ideas etc. the simplest and surest way is to have one without men at all.
I agree that climbing is fairly non-sexist pasttime. But there are still differences. Physically women tend to be smaller making something like reach a much bigger issue than for men, particularly in light of the fact that the grades are mostly decided by men. And there still is some sexism in some places. This was an issue recently in the US. If woman say wanted to talk about an experience like that it would make sense to talk to other women not men.
Overall I'm sure the dynamic will be different to a mixed event. And since nearly every other event on the climbing calendar is mixed having one day that is women only seems like a really good idea. It's growing success seems to prove it.
Men and women are wired up differently in many ways. For instance men produce about 15 times as much testosterone than women. That hormone is responsible for traits like aggression, domination etc. So if women want to have symposium that's definitely not going to be dominated by men, men's ideas etc. the simplest and surest way is to have one without men at all.
I agree that climbing is fairly non-sexist pasttime. But there are still differences. Physically women tend to be smaller making something like reach a much bigger issue than for men, particularly in light of the fact that the grades are mostly decided by men. And there still is some sexism in some places. This was an issue recently in the US. If woman say wanted to talk about an experience like that it would make sense to talk to other women not men.
Overall I'm sure the dynamic will be different to a mixed event. And since nearly every other event on the climbing calendar is mixed having one day that is women only seems like a really good idea. It's growing success seems to prove it.
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In reply to scot1:
I will add that what I've said of course are generalisations. You can't use generaliations to say something about the characteristics of spefic individuals. There are many cases that buck the general trend. Teresa May, Margret Thatcher etc are the exceptions. But in something that involves a large number of people generalisations will become apparent.
I will add that what I've said of course are generalisations. You can't use generaliations to say something about the characteristics of spefic individuals. There are many cases that buck the general trend. Teresa May, Margret Thatcher etc are the exceptions. But in something that involves a large number of people generalisations will become apparent.
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In reply to Southvillain:
It doesn't really explain why or how women are treated different. I've never treated a girl different than a boy so I don't understand why there needs to be a women-only symposium any more than there needs to be a men-only one. But having said that, I might not know as much on the issue of discrimination as other people do.
It doesn't really explain why or how women are treated different. I've never treated a girl different than a boy so I don't understand why there needs to be a women-only symposium any more than there needs to be a men-only one. But having said that, I might not know as much on the issue of discrimination as other people do.
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
Nor me. On the subject of sexism that would be other people such as women, for example.
But I don't think the Women's Symposium is to do with discrimination as such, I believe it's more about the atmosphere of a women only event and giving space and freedom of expression to women (by no means all of those attending the event) who would find the presence of a significant number of men somewhat inhibiting.
The testosterone-fuelled dickhead at the wall (or the gym) is like the loony on the bus: there's always one - look around and if you can't see him that probably means you're it.
I clicked on this thread just knowing there would be male voices questioning the need for a women only event. It's a little bit tiresome tbh. Suck it up boys, your opinion doesn't matter - there needs to be a women only event until *women* are saying it's unnecessary.
> But having said that, I might not know as much on the issue of discrimination as other people do.
Nor me. On the subject of sexism that would be other people such as women, for example.
But I don't think the Women's Symposium is to do with discrimination as such, I believe it's more about the atmosphere of a women only event and giving space and freedom of expression to women (by no means all of those attending the event) who would find the presence of a significant number of men somewhat inhibiting.
The testosterone-fuelled dickhead at the wall (or the gym) is like the loony on the bus: there's always one - look around and if you can't see him that probably means you're it.
I clicked on this thread just knowing there would be male voices questioning the need for a women only event. It's a little bit tiresome tbh. Suck it up boys, your opinion doesn't matter - there needs to be a women only event until *women* are saying it's unnecessary.
Post edited at 16:16
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In reply to deepsoup:
More to the point, if those tedious folk want to organise a Men's Climbing Symposium, nobody is stopping them.
Can't imagine many people would turn up
> I clicked on this thread just knowing there would be male voices questioning the need for a women only event. It's a little bit tiresome tbh. Suck it up boys, your opinion doesn't matter - there needs to be a women only event until *women* are saying it's unnecessary.
More to the point, if those tedious folk want to organise a Men's Climbing Symposium, nobody is stopping them.
Can't imagine many people would turn up
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In reply to UKC News:
I struggle to fathom how can there be any criticism of this event in any way at all? What planet are you on if you don't think there is an issue with gender equality in our society? The very fact anyone is commenting in this manner only demonstrates the issue exists, as others have pointed out.
Thankfully I don't think (or, hope) those offering negative comment here are in any way representative of the majority of the scene. Like it or not, climbing is male dominated, probably in many more ways than I or any other man could point out and anything which could help bring balance to that situation should be welcomed.
I struggle to fathom how can there be any criticism of this event in any way at all? What planet are you on if you don't think there is an issue with gender equality in our society? The very fact anyone is commenting in this manner only demonstrates the issue exists, as others have pointed out.
Thankfully I don't think (or, hope) those offering negative comment here are in any way representative of the majority of the scene. Like it or not, climbing is male dominated, probably in many more ways than I or any other man could point out and anything which could help bring balance to that situation should be welcomed.
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
stp's comment is quite appropriate here:
"I will add that what I've said of course are generalisations. You can't use generalisations to say something about the characteristics of specific individuals. There are many cases that buck the general trend. Teresa May, Margret Thatcher etc are the exceptions. But in something that involves a large number of people generalisations will become apparent"
I think the key point from your observation needs the following adjustment:
"I've never [knowingly] treated a girl different than a boy"
because it's really difficult to avoid. If you are interested in learning more about unintentional discrimination, then unconscious bias awareness is a great starting point.
try: https://marshallelearning.com/blog/unconscious-bias-an-introduction-with-da... or similar.
stp's comment is quite appropriate here:
"I will add that what I've said of course are generalisations. You can't use generalisations to say something about the characteristics of specific individuals. There are many cases that buck the general trend. Teresa May, Margret Thatcher etc are the exceptions. But in something that involves a large number of people generalisations will become apparent"
I think the key point from your observation needs the following adjustment:
"I've never [knowingly] treated a girl different than a boy"
because it's really difficult to avoid. If you are interested in learning more about unintentional discrimination, then unconscious bias awareness is a great starting point.
try: https://marshallelearning.com/blog/unconscious-bias-an-introduction-with-da... or similar.
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
Respectfully, yes you have. If you are male and went to a school in the western tradition of education, you were raised with a complex set of narratives around what is expected behaviour in men and in women.
This is also linked to the fact that we live in a tremendously patriarchally structured culture that affects us all, regardless of sex or gender. There might be a need for a men only symposium but only if it becomes an expressed need. If women want a women only symposium, there is no need to reflexively suggest that men need one too. There are a number of comments here questioning why this symposium is necessary but this only really makes me wonder why these men are uncomfortable with the idea.
In my mind, this action (by women) needs no reaction other than general support. We're not in a battle of the sexes here, or are we?
Respectfully, yes you have. If you are male and went to a school in the western tradition of education, you were raised with a complex set of narratives around what is expected behaviour in men and in women.
This is also linked to the fact that we live in a tremendously patriarchally structured culture that affects us all, regardless of sex or gender. There might be a need for a men only symposium but only if it becomes an expressed need. If women want a women only symposium, there is no need to reflexively suggest that men need one too. There are a number of comments here questioning why this symposium is necessary but this only really makes me wonder why these men are uncomfortable with the idea.
In my mind, this action (by women) needs no reaction other than general support. We're not in a battle of the sexes here, or are we?
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In reply to fattybiscuits:
I think this is where the confusion/problem is coming from.
I think you're right that men treat women differently to men, even without intending to, but I'm not so sure most women would like to be treated just like we'd treat other men, some might but I think in general women would find male group bonding and general boisterousness a bit much. So we end up in a no-win situation, treat a woman like any other guy at the wall and you're rude, try to be a little more caring, protective and helpful and you're a misogynist who considers women lesser than your self. And this, of course, is before you factor in any sort of sexual dynamic into the equation.
Which is why I think some people oppose men only / women only events on things like climbing. Some feel that segregating the sexes is a step backwards and we should be working towards better integration rather than dividing into two camps. I can see why people might feel happier around just their own kind than mixing with others but I think in the long run it's better for everyone to learn to be happy in a more integrated environment.
I think this is where the confusion/problem is coming from.
I think you're right that men treat women differently to men, even without intending to, but I'm not so sure most women would like to be treated just like we'd treat other men, some might but I think in general women would find male group bonding and general boisterousness a bit much. So we end up in a no-win situation, treat a woman like any other guy at the wall and you're rude, try to be a little more caring, protective and helpful and you're a misogynist who considers women lesser than your self. And this, of course, is before you factor in any sort of sexual dynamic into the equation.
Which is why I think some people oppose men only / women only events on things like climbing. Some feel that segregating the sexes is a step backwards and we should be working towards better integration rather than dividing into two camps. I can see why people might feel happier around just their own kind than mixing with others but I think in the long run it's better for everyone to learn to be happy in a more integrated environment.
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In reply to Lord_ash2000:
But one Women's Climbing Symposium a year is hardly "dividing into two camps" or preventing a "more integrated environment", is it? I'm baffled at the objection to a one of annual event in which women can raise and discuss issues that are relevant to women with other women. Spending time at the wall, the environment is quite mixed (still the odd musclebound tosser but that's life) but outside (I mainly boulder and trad climb) it's still a very male dominated environment. That might be quite intimidating, I obviously don't know as I'm a man, but having a forum for women to discuss these things doesn't exactly seem that bad?
As an aside, there was a good podcast (Enormocast - Chris Kalous) with the organiser of the american women's climbing festival (something to do with flashfoxy) in which she spoke really well. A couple of things she mentions, most instructors and guides being men, when mixed pairs climbed together it's often the men lead etc, hadn't really occurred to me. Worth a listen if you want an articulate argument for these kind of events.
> Which is why I think some people oppose men only / women only events on things like climbing. Some feel that segregating the sexes is a step backwards and we should be working towards better integration rather than dividing into two camps. I can see why people might feel happier around just their own kind than mixing with others but I think in the long run it's better for everyone to learn to be happy in a more integrated environment.
But one Women's Climbing Symposium a year is hardly "dividing into two camps" or preventing a "more integrated environment", is it? I'm baffled at the objection to a one of annual event in which women can raise and discuss issues that are relevant to women with other women. Spending time at the wall, the environment is quite mixed (still the odd musclebound tosser but that's life) but outside (I mainly boulder and trad climb) it's still a very male dominated environment. That might be quite intimidating, I obviously don't know as I'm a man, but having a forum for women to discuss these things doesn't exactly seem that bad?
As an aside, there was a good podcast (Enormocast - Chris Kalous) with the organiser of the american women's climbing festival (something to do with flashfoxy) in which she spoke really well. A couple of things she mentions, most instructors and guides being men, when mixed pairs climbed together it's often the men lead etc, hadn't really occurred to me. Worth a listen if you want an articulate argument for these kind of events.
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In reply to fattybiscuits:
I totally agree that applies to life in general and I totally support the questioning of patriarchal structures in society. But I still don't see how it applies to climbing. From my experience I haven't seen that pattern translated into climbing, I've always seen that climbing is plain level field for males and females so I questioned the purpose of the symposium, more out of curiosity more than anything else. My view is that climbing is free from that gender discrimination, and when it happens (i.e. Epic TV and other gaffes) it gets slammed pretty quickly. I see that categorising women stops them fulfilling their max potential, does a women only event perpetuate that? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm just naive and girls do get treated different in climbing and I'm oblivious. My comments are not a criticism, I'm just genuinely interested to know/change/learn.
I totally agree that applies to life in general and I totally support the questioning of patriarchal structures in society. But I still don't see how it applies to climbing. From my experience I haven't seen that pattern translated into climbing, I've always seen that climbing is plain level field for males and females so I questioned the purpose of the symposium, more out of curiosity more than anything else. My view is that climbing is free from that gender discrimination, and when it happens (i.e. Epic TV and other gaffes) it gets slammed pretty quickly. I see that categorising women stops them fulfilling their max potential, does a women only event perpetuate that? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm just naive and girls do get treated different in climbing and I'm oblivious. My comments are not a criticism, I'm just genuinely interested to know/change/learn.
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
I dunno - I don't really like speaking on other peoples' behalf, but I've talked to plenty of female climbers who've dealt with some amount of low-grade sexism - hut chat that starts from the assumption that their boyfriend is dragging them up an easy snow plod rather than vice-versa, for instance - so it wouldn't entirely surprise me to learn that there's worse stuff goes on as well. Then there's stuff that isn't "people being prejudiced" so much as "being in a minority is always a bit of a pain in the arse" - the relative difficulty of finding technical gear in women's fits and sizes, for instance. Then there's stuff from people outside of climbing - friends, relatives, co-workers etc - who think it's odd for a woman to have forearms like Popeye or to disappear for the weekend and come back glowing bright pink from windburn or with your hands shredded from jamming.
> Maybe I'm just naive and girls do get treated different in climbing and I'm oblivious. My comments are not a criticism, I'm just genuinely interested to know/change/learn.
I dunno - I don't really like speaking on other peoples' behalf, but I've talked to plenty of female climbers who've dealt with some amount of low-grade sexism - hut chat that starts from the assumption that their boyfriend is dragging them up an easy snow plod rather than vice-versa, for instance - so it wouldn't entirely surprise me to learn that there's worse stuff goes on as well. Then there's stuff that isn't "people being prejudiced" so much as "being in a minority is always a bit of a pain in the arse" - the relative difficulty of finding technical gear in women's fits and sizes, for instance. Then there's stuff from people outside of climbing - friends, relatives, co-workers etc - who think it's odd for a woman to have forearms like Popeye or to disappear for the weekend and come back glowing bright pink from windburn or with your hands shredded from jamming.
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In reply to Ramon Marin:
Of course in any given situation it's not possible to see if you're 'treating someone differently', as you can't play it back with someone else in their place. I'm sure nearly all of us subconsciously change how we act, what we say or how we say it depending on who we're speaking to. And logically this will apply in climbing situations as well?
Of course in any given situation it's not possible to see if you're 'treating someone differently', as you can't play it back with someone else in their place. I'm sure nearly all of us subconsciously change how we act, what we say or how we say it depending on who we're speaking to. And logically this will apply in climbing situations as well?
Post edited at 07:14
In reply to redbullxtremer:
I hope your climbing's better than your trolling - having just typed that I realise it's a pretty low bar I've set there, but baby steps and all that.
I hope your climbing's better than your trolling - having just typed that I realise it's a pretty low bar I've set there, but baby steps and all that.
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In reply to redbullxtremer:
Get well soon.
Get well soon.
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In reply to redbullxtremer:
You are Bob Pettigrew, and I donate the £5 to charity.........
You are Bob Pettigrew, and I donate the £5 to charity.........
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In reply to UKC News:
I meant to post in this thread last Sunday for the benefit of some of the posters in this thread, but forgot (sorry).
It was International Men's Day. 19th November. Remember the date, and on the 8th March next year it will save you the trouble of asking why there isn't one.
I meant to post in this thread last Sunday for the benefit of some of the posters in this thread, but forgot (sorry).
It was International Men's Day. 19th November. Remember the date, and on the 8th March next year it will save you the trouble of asking why there isn't one.
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