UKC

Hi folks,
as per title.

Here in the US last year it was baltic for 3 months and I ended up using an old TNF Summit down jacket to keep me warm. Our local second hand gear shop let me borrow a few micro down jackets to test (highest fill was about 700EU down) but none of them were good enough and let the wind right through. The higher the fill the bulkier the jacket got.

I don't want to use a massive bulky jacket ideally what I want is a non bulky down jacket that will keep me toasty and one that will easily fit a shell over the top. Or of course a Primaloft alternative. I'll be using it regularly down to about minus 15-20.

Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance, Den

In reply to Denni:

One good compromise is the ME Dewline Jacket. I've worn it in exposed conditions at altitude down to around -10ish but in bad weather a bigger jacket is necessary. It packs down into a 2 litre dry bag.

If looking at primaloft alternatives, the ones I have are the Rab Generator Alpine (I have for personal use), and ME Fitzroy (I have an MR one). They both pack down fairly well (not quite as well as down), and are relatively good ratio of bulk to warmth and windproofness. These don't give as warmth for weight as down either, but is much better in wetter conditions (although this is probably not a problem at -20!). The ME Fitzroy is slightly warmer but therefore bigger than the Rab jacket.

Most insulated jackets in this range aren't super windproof and a shell over the top is often the easiest way to achieve this. You're also not going to get something tiny that will keep you warm at -20 if exposed to a gale.

In reply to Denni: And in your size too

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=674455
(UK Postage incl)

In reply to Denni:

With modern fills (Primaloft/Down) bulk = warmth. More space to trap warm air, or less space to trap warm air.
No way around it.

Maybe in the future we will have consumer level aerogel jackets, but until then we're stuck looking puffy.

In reply to Denni:

Hi Denni,

The Crux Pryo could be a good option. It uses a box wall construction, which eliminates cold spots. It is filled 250g of 850 polish goose down.

https://www.crux.uk.com/product/new-pyro-jacket?shop=1

Drop me a message if you’d like further information.

Cheers, Tom

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
I have a Crux Halo pullover thing, won off UKC. Absolutely great bit of kit. Very warm for its size/fill or what have you and packs down to pretty much nothing.

In reply to Denni:

Hi,

The whole point of the "bulk" is that that is where the warm air is trapped unfortunately. To my mind, the bulk isn't a problem if the fabric and down is light and high quality. The less "puffy" offerings can be superb, but the laws of physics mean they cannot trap as much warm air as a thicker traditional "Michelin" look jacket, whatever the filling. They can be better in other ways, but in terms of trapped air, thickness is always going to win. Some of the thinner stuff is indeed very good, but for the temperatures you're talking about I'd have thought you'd need a full weight down jacket, assuming you're trying to stay warm when you've stopped for instance. You may have to use a bigger sized shell so as not to crush the down. Can you give a little more info on what uses it will be put to? Climbing in? Walking in? Belaying? General hanging about in the cold? Just trying to judge how active you'll be when wearing it, the more active, the more you can get away with thinner insulation.

In reply to Denni:

Have a look at the PhD range http://phdesigns.co.uk they have higher quality down than your current jacket. You will have to have some bulk though – that's the way insulation works. I remember having a low temp Berghaus Goretex thinsulate jacket about 25 years ago, it wasn't that bulky, but despite all the claims it wasn't' that warm either.

Steve

In reply to Denni:

Stellar Equipment could be worth checking out. Some of these smaller bespoke companies use the 1000 fp down but don't always state if it's ethical souced down. The good thing about PhD is you can build your own but expect £££££.

In reply to Denni:


Is the wind the real problem rather than the lack of insulation? Have you tried an insulation jacket with shell on the outside? That will pretty much solve the wind problem. As suggested above, a box wall construction jacket will have much fewer cold spots than a stitched through one. Because box walls are complicated to make they'll be top-end jackets expensive.

In reply to Denni:
If you're looking for something good for -15 to -20, then the type of low bulk/thickness lightweight jackets on the market simply won't cut it.

Having used a number of lighter, less bulky down jackets in recent years, the minute the temperature drops below about -5, their shortcomings in terms of loft (the thing that makes down jackets warm in the first place) become obvious.

At the kind of temperatures you're talking about, you need a full on - ideally box wall baffle - down jacket, and that means good loft/thickness.

The only other option is to use a lighter weight down jacket, but as part of a more comprehensive layering system?

In reply to Goucho:

I agree with above comments, skinny baffles look great, though too many stitch lines and not enough loft!

Stuart

In reply to Denni:

The Arc'teryx Cerium SV is a relativity low profile 850 down fill jacket designed to be a mid-layer under a shell or used on its own (no membrane on the outer shell so not the best for variable weather). They are expensive at RRP but easy to find on the net with a good saving.

I'm a little sceptical about down for mid-layer use but perhaps the hydrophobic down works well. How much activity are you going to be doing?

In reply to Denni:

I got one of these Montane jackets on sale last year for just over £100. I've not tested it to the temps you're looking at but down to -5° it's very warm and not too bulky and the clever waist drawstring which is operated from inside the handwarmer pockets is a nice touch.

It's also boxwall construction.

https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/montane-black-ice-20-jacket-down-jacket/

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:



Thats a nice looking jacket that would fit nicely between my lightweight PHD and heavy duty ME Omega. Hmmm... (counts number of down jackets in the household already)

In reply to Denni:

Berghaus Ramche 2.0? About 400-450g depending on size, but offset baffles and silver lining make it absurdly warm for the weight.

Picked one up in an outlet yesterday for £130. Yes that's right.

In reply to neuromancer:

Hi all.
many thanks for the replies, much appreciated.
I did figure when posting that bulk probably meant warmth and they do keep me toasty. I'm just a bit threaders having a huge bulky jacket.

Activity wise, its for belaying, something to stick on when I get to the top of a hill (so needs to fit into my rucksack) , loads of outdoor stuff with the kids, basically anything in the snow and frigid temps.

I'm sort of half tempted to use something like a Arcteryx Kappa Hoody with a micro down jacket underneath if needed. WIth all that primaloft it's bound to keep me warm and loads for sale here on the cheap.

Any more suggestions to keep me warm without doubling my body weight are appreciated.

Den

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:


Or eiderdown (assuming an unlimited budget)

In reply to Denni:

I'd like to follow this thread as I've been looking to.

I've been looking at the Black Diamond Cold Forge jacket. It's a mix of down and synthetic and got some good reviews, not 100% sold yet though.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Eider will still be puffy as it's just down with a very high fill power.

In reply to Denni:
As has been mentioned before the Crux Pyro 1/2 price in the link and also as an added extra a zip on hood for £10 .Bargain at that price ....http://www.outside.co.uk/shop/Pyro+Down+Jacket