UKC

Lots of paths on Kinder, Bleaklow etc. have been paved with big thick paving stones over the last few years. It's good that there is something to stop erosion. Wouldn't is be good to have a short step gap between them, say a foot/30cm? A short gap would make the stones go further (or involve less costly stone per mile) and allow the plants to grow between them. It would help to keep the look of the moors and keep a bit of the wild feel to the area.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:

It'd be really annoying riding me bike on them though.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:

Good if it worked. However maybe the slabs would be more likely to tilt and move without an adjacent stone.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:
When these floating paths were first laid they looked terrible, a horrible scar across the moorland. That said they replaced'paths' which were so boggy they were pretty much impassable and several metres wide as people tried to find a route through the bog.

Now that the vegetation has recovered and the paths have narrowed. Yes the slabs are still unsightly they are less intrusive than wide scars of exposed peat they have replaced. Maybe a more broken path would have been better, but I think it's good that the paths curve so you don't have a long straight line of slabs cutting a cross the moor.

Would be interesting to know how the NT would change these paths if installing them worth the benefit of hindsight. (certainly in the lakes the more recent path designs are far easier to walk on than the early ones, which appear to have been designed as a torture implement for footsore walkers)

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:

There’s a stone part runs south of Aislaby for many miles. I think it’s over a century old.” And has really faded into the landscape. You barely notice it until you’re almost on it.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:
I ran the Edale Skyline route recently and the paved section over Brown Knoll was one of my favourite parts. Aside from it being pleasantly flat and fast, as I looked at the heinous bog to either side of the path I felt very grateful for all the hard work it must have taken to lay it, and thanked my lucky stars I wasn’t having to wade knees-deep through the mud. I think the path cuts an attractive, striking line over the moor. It’s a strange sight, this thin ribbon of ‘civilisation’ winding its way across bleak, wild terrain, but I like it. That’s just my opinion and I appreciate some people prefer proper unspoiled wilderness, but as others have mentioned, this is surely preferable to the unsightly mess of erosion that it replaces.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:


We all have different stride lengths. Being forced to walk at an unnatural stride length by the spacing of what would be essentially stepping stones could be quite wearing after a while.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:

I don't know the paths in the Peak but back in the past when I worked on path restoration in Scotland much of the art was to place the stones so they were 'keyed' against one another much like a dry stone wall. Leaving large gaps would only work if the slabs were very large.

In reply to Chris Harris:

Good point and I think this is the problem with the early attempts at path reconstruction in the lakes.

In reply to Doug:

No these are 'floating' on top of the bog. From what I remember an underlayer off wood and steel fencing stuff laid on the peat surface, then flat paving slabs laid on top - of someone starts jumping up and down on one you can feel the vibrations standing on nearby sections of the path.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

I think I did Edale Skyline in 2002 before the slabs were put down. It was a dreadful section and a scar on the route to be honest. I would be interested to see how it has progressed since...

In reply to Rampikino:
I should think times have got a lot quicker! It’s the quickest running of the route now.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Makes sense - it was a slog when I did it and about 2/3 of the way into the run too, so just at that point when you start getting a bit weary.

In reply to wintertree:


This. British hills are criss-crossed with old packhorse trails, most of which have disappeared into the soil and been lost. These are causeways formed from chunks of stone, closely fitted together and laid when people lived in hill settlements like Heptonstall and produced wool cloth at home, before the industrial revolution brought them down into the valleys. The new walking trails, ironically made from flags from the floors of old cotton mills, will be slowly absorbed by the vegetation as the seasons pass and the peat level rises around them.

There are some especially well-preserved packhorse causeways around Calderdale:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/The_Long_Causeway_-_geo...

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:
Tip bit of the Watkin path near top of Snowdon well due some work. Last time I came down it the erosion is terrible.

The erosion is getting wider and looks much worse than steps would. I note there is lots of other paths in the area being done at present.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:

From my point of view, to see the value of these slabs you only have to look at Black Hill and the area around the trig point there. It's not just that the paving of the Pennine Way there has stopped erosion, it's also allowed the flora and fauna of the moors to repopulate the area. The before and after photos speak volumes for the work Moors for the Future can achieve.

And, of course, old though they are in relation to us, a lot of the moors in the UK are man-made in origin because of deforestation in prehistoric times - and a lot of them are "managed" by the grouse-shooting industry, wild though they may look. I can see where you're coming from with the spacing of the slabs but I think once they've "grown in" the visual impact will lessen. And speaking as someone with short legs, I'd probably find the gaps hard work on a hike!

I think Brown Knoll is already showing signs of improvement in terms of biodiversity. We live nearby and went up there for a few evening walks over the summer and it was beautiful to see some of the groughs showing new growth in grasses and mosses. It was also beautiful not to wade through knee-deep peat too! :-D

When I was walking up Ingleborough a few years ago, someone had scratched into the newly-laid slabs "Stop Paving Our Mountains". When I was walking down by a different route, the eroded and unpaved path had sunk a couple of feet below ground level in places. There was nothing natural about that ugly scar in the landscape either and I know which one I preferred.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:

on a side note have a look at this photos on the moors for the future website showing how paving path combined with moorland restoration has restored the summit area around black hill, from a dark wasteland with an ugly path through it to a diverse area where the path blends in by comparison. I know which i prefer. Unfortunately with the numbers of people now regularly using the paths in many National Parks this is often a compromise to maintain the surrounding landscape from erosion and stop paths becoming extremely wide as both walkers and bikers avoid rutted or boggy sections. see the 2nd link of an areal view of the bridleway from Cutthroat bridge to Whinstone Lee. If you pan north you can see newly restored path along Derwent edge with the area around the path still recovering before reaching areas further north again where it has almost blended in by comparison. Similar things can be observed in many areas along the southern edge of kinder scout which have received very high levels of traffic over the last 60 years. All this links into the Mend our Mountains project see the last link:

http://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/repairing-bare-peat

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3842299,-1.6855075,219m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/mend-our-mountains-returns-with-1-million-target-f...

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Yes kinder is a totally different place to what I remember 30"years ago as a child. I miss that the place has been tamed by paths, removing the wilderness experience and challenge of route finding (and fun of bog trotting). But I also commend the NT on restoring the vegetation cover and suscesfully reversing the destruction of the peat bogs without limiting public access.

In reply to mostlyrambling:


Lordy, that used to be bad. Thigh-deep peat.

But better than White Moss just north of it. That was waist-deep when I went over there doing the Pennine Way in the early 80s, with no clue as to whether the next step would be on something firm or deliver you into a glooping morass from which you couldn't extract yourself without assistance. That, plus seeing the ugly scars of trails up Grisedale Pike from about ten miles away on the A66, has made me a fan of paved paths in key places. Many thanks to whomever has been involved in the construction of one I've used, you did a Good Thing.

T.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:

Shortage of time means I haven't climbed or even walked much in recent years so all my fitness comes from road cycling, which I can do in a few short hours from my front door. In the summer I did a nice big ride around Snowdonia and was absolutely staggered at the hundreds of cars parked both sides of the roads leading away from the PyG hotel, in fact the National park has even provided widened verges to allow the parking. If this is a measure of the numbers crowding onto Snowdon on a regular weekend day I can easily see how remedial work has been needed in walking hotspots all over Britain.

In reply to SteveB_NWUK_99:

Apart from the other problems cited above, spaced stones would only work well for walkers or runners, depending on the spacing, but not both, never mind the bumpy ride that cyclists would get.

The Five Tors race from Minions in Cornwall ends along an old section of railway track. The track has long gone, but the stone sleepers that remain are murder to run along, while being just the right spacing if walking.

In reply to mbh:

But would add entertainment value when partly vegetated over, as you wouldn't know if you were about to tread on a solid slab or sink down 3 foot in wet peat.