This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I've been thinking a lot about what the optimum conditions are for climbing on grit - I'm thinking with regard to bouldering at my limit but I guess it would apply equally to any trad climbing too - any problem or route where friction is a bigger factor than body position, strength, beta, commitment and so on.
Common consensus is that temperature is an obvious factor - I've read that there's about 30% more grip at 0 degrees Celsius when compared to 20 degrees Celsius.
Then there's humidity - the lower the humidity the better the grip. Anything below 80% seems good to me.
I've also been thinking temperature change is a factor too. My theory is that there's more grip to be had when the surface of the rock is getting colder - maybe the moisture is drawn away from the surface, into the rock. When the temperature is increasing, the moisture comes to / remains on / condenses the surface.
As an example, I was trying a problem at Almscliff this last weekend. The temp was 1 degree when we got there but 7 degrees when I tried the problem. I was really struggling to hold on to key holds, before the crux.
The previous week, I'd been holding the holds easily enough and failing on the crux move (for the umpteenth time). Temp had dropped to 7 degrees. I felt good, so I don't think I was having an off day. I've tried it many times before too, in similar conditions.
Does my thinking have any basis in any science? Have I made this up?
Common consensus is that temperature is an obvious factor - I've read that there's about 30% more grip at 0 degrees Celsius when compared to 20 degrees Celsius.
Then there's humidity - the lower the humidity the better the grip. Anything below 80% seems good to me.
I've also been thinking temperature change is a factor too. My theory is that there's more grip to be had when the surface of the rock is getting colder - maybe the moisture is drawn away from the surface, into the rock. When the temperature is increasing, the moisture comes to / remains on / condenses the surface.
As an example, I was trying a problem at Almscliff this last weekend. The temp was 1 degree when we got there but 7 degrees when I tried the problem. I was really struggling to hold on to key holds, before the crux.
The previous week, I'd been holding the holds easily enough and failing on the crux move (for the umpteenth time). Temp had dropped to 7 degrees. I felt good, so I don't think I was having an off day. I've tried it many times before too, in similar conditions.
Does my thinking have any basis in any science? Have I made this up?
6
2
In reply to afx22:
Is the increased cold grip due to hands not sweating, or the rock itself? Do people whose hands don't sweat notice a difference?
Does friction improve on other rock types when cold?
What about shoe friction, is that better when cold?
This has the potential for a good and interesting thread.
Is the increased cold grip due to hands not sweating, or the rock itself? Do people whose hands don't sweat notice a difference?
Does friction improve on other rock types when cold?
What about shoe friction, is that better when cold?
This has the potential for a good and interesting thread.
4
In reply to Toerag:
<SNIP>
... or even some research?
<SNIP>
> This has the potential for a good and interesting thread.
... or even some research?
3
1
29
In reply to afx22:
[...]
Not that I can see
[...]
> I've also been thinking temperature change is a factor too. My theory is that there's more grip to be had when the surface of the rock is getting colder - maybe the moisture is drawn away from the surface, into the rock. When the temperature is increasing, the moisture comes to / remains on / condenses the surface.
> Does my thinking have any basis in any science?
Not that I can see
2
In reply to Andy Hardy:
I remember being mightily impressed by a Neil Gresham (I think) bouldering article a few years ago recommending that you could waft your climbing rag at the rock to cool it down. I had no idea that boulderers carried around the sort of environmental monitoring kit to accurately measure the relative temperature and humidity levels of the rock and nearby air i.e. identifying your appropriate bit of air and transporting it to the rock to instantly cool It down - or was he suggesting that it would cool via evaporation produced by the flap? And on top of that would the infinitesimal effect of this activity actually be outweighed by the raised body heat of the wafting action?
Or maybe it was just bollocks.
I remember being mightily impressed by a Neil Gresham (I think) bouldering article a few years ago recommending that you could waft your climbing rag at the rock to cool it down. I had no idea that boulderers carried around the sort of environmental monitoring kit to accurately measure the relative temperature and humidity levels of the rock and nearby air i.e. identifying your appropriate bit of air and transporting it to the rock to instantly cool It down - or was he suggesting that it would cool via evaporation produced by the flap? And on top of that would the infinitesimal effect of this activity actually be outweighed by the raised body heat of the wafting action?
Or maybe it was just bollocks.
18
1
In reply to afx22:
I recall that when 'sticky rubber' on climbing shoes was a new 'thing', there were claims that the rubber was at it's most functional at a bit above 0 Celsius. However my own personal experience seems very much counter to this, as I've had shoes 'skid' unexpectedly off of holds on multiple occasions at temperatures in this range--even on routes and problems that I have climbed frequently in somewhat warmer temperatures without any such problems. Humidity doesn't seem to be a factor on such occasions either (or too much humidity, that is) as the conditions on such occasions are usually very dry. I've also found that in such cold, dry conditions my hands have also often felt very insecure--the opposite of what I would have expected. I've had this occur both on rock and on plastic in the gym. This tends to occur most frequently on the first climb or 2 of the day, but not after both I and my shoes have warmed up a bit, so the comment up thread about warm rubber and cold grit might be right on.
I recall that when 'sticky rubber' on climbing shoes was a new 'thing', there were claims that the rubber was at it's most functional at a bit above 0 Celsius. However my own personal experience seems very much counter to this, as I've had shoes 'skid' unexpectedly off of holds on multiple occasions at temperatures in this range--even on routes and problems that I have climbed frequently in somewhat warmer temperatures without any such problems. Humidity doesn't seem to be a factor on such occasions either (or too much humidity, that is) as the conditions on such occasions are usually very dry. I've also found that in such cold, dry conditions my hands have also often felt very insecure--the opposite of what I would have expected. I've had this occur both on rock and on plastic in the gym. This tends to occur most frequently on the first climb or 2 of the day, but not after both I and my shoes have warmed up a bit, so the comment up thread about warm rubber and cold grit might be right on.
1
59
1
In reply to Marek:
Would make a change from the usual uni project research stuff that gets asked about on here!
> <SNIP>
> ... or even some research?
Would make a change from the usual uni project research stuff that gets asked about on here!
4
In reply to Toerag:
I’ve definitely found that the rock itself varies in friction. It can feel greasy at times, especially on warm, humid days. I appreciate the other variables are a factor too.
Are there other types of rock? I’m only aware of different types of gritstone
I’ve definitely found that the rock itself varies in friction. It can feel greasy at times, especially on warm, humid days. I appreciate the other variables are a factor too.
Are there other types of rock? I’m only aware of different types of gritstone
In reply to Steve Perry:
I can barely get off the ground at 20 degrees on any interesting grit problems.
I can barely get off the ground at 20 degrees on any interesting grit problems.
2
1
In reply to afx22:
I can barely get off the ground at any temperature on any interesting grit problems.
Or on the boring ones either, sadly...
I can barely get off the ground at any temperature on any interesting grit problems.
Or on the boring ones either, sadly...
5
In reply to afx22:
Interesting questions. Don't know the answer or the science.
Personal experience says there is something special about grit in terms of friction. Differences in temperature and conditions seem to make a huge difference; far greater than on limestone or other types of rock. Font is similar. I don't think this is just on hard slopey boulder problems either. You can notice the difference on big holds on easy routes too. When conditions are right everything seems about a grade easier.
Interesting questions. Don't know the answer or the science.
Personal experience says there is something special about grit in terms of friction. Differences in temperature and conditions seem to make a huge difference; far greater than on limestone or other types of rock. Font is similar. I don't think this is just on hard slopey boulder problems either. You can notice the difference on big holds on easy routes too. When conditions are right everything seems about a grade easier.
3
In reply to afx22:
too cold and sometimes the grit feels glassy. plus when your body is cold you cant pull very well.
for hard routes we used to say about 10 deg with a nice wind.
strangely sometimes when it was misty the friction was at max.
too cold and sometimes the grit feels glassy. plus when your body is cold you cant pull very well.
for hard routes we used to say about 10 deg with a nice wind.
strangely sometimes when it was misty the friction was at max.
In reply to mark s:
I find when my fingers are cold they loose friction on grit. For me about 10 deg is also my ideal.
I find when my fingers are cold they loose friction on grit. For me about 10 deg is also my ideal.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I found 8 Celsius was optimum: that's what the car thermometer said anyway. But psyche can get you up things regardless. I did my hardest grit route in the middle of August, and the ascents of Toru Nakajima the other year in summer show one just needs to get on with it and stop one's moaning about connies.
I found 8 Celsius was optimum: that's what the car thermometer said anyway. But psyche can get you up things regardless. I did my hardest grit route in the middle of August, and the ascents of Toru Nakajima the other year in summer show one just needs to get on with it and stop one's moaning about connies.
4
In reply to afx22:
Climbing in Asia, seen plenty of ascents of hard routes on small holds. It's never cold there.
Warm rubber I think is important, ask formula 1!
Cold rock, not so convinced. Condensation then becomes an issue. So that'll be humidity being important.
Climbing in Asia, seen plenty of ascents of hard routes on small holds. It's never cold there.
Warm rubber I think is important, ask formula 1!
Cold rock, not so convinced. Condensation then becomes an issue. So that'll be humidity being important.
In reply to Jon Read:
Table Mountain sandstone is similar to hard gritstone and pretty hard things get done on that at 20C +. The difference, of course, is that generally the humidity is low and the rock super dry.
As I understand it, the issue with grit is the amount and availability of water held in the microporosity of its surface. When it's cold, this is somehow less available to reduce friction. Well below zero, this will be solid ice and warmth of fingers might make more of it available.
I can see that this means that both temperature and humidity are important but it seems to me that the amount of water absorbed by the rock might be the key factor.
> I did my hardest grit route in the middle of August,
Table Mountain sandstone is similar to hard gritstone and pretty hard things get done on that at 20C +. The difference, of course, is that generally the humidity is low and the rock super dry.
As I understand it, the issue with grit is the amount and availability of water held in the microporosity of its surface. When it's cold, this is somehow less available to reduce friction. Well below zero, this will be solid ice and warmth of fingers might make more of it available.
I can see that this means that both temperature and humidity are important but it seems to me that the amount of water absorbed by the rock might be the key factor.
1
In reply to Kevster:
This is a misconception. Racing around a track heats the tyres hence the rubber compound is designed to work optimally at a high temperature. Climbing shoes are designed to work best somewhere in the region of 0-8C which is cold enough for good skin on the hands but not too cold. Am surprised that no shoe company has made/marketed a shoe for the slightly warmer temperatures, say sport climbing in Spain.
> Warm rubber I think is important, ask formula 1!
This is a misconception. Racing around a track heats the tyres hence the rubber compound is designed to work optimally at a high temperature. Climbing shoes are designed to work best somewhere in the region of 0-8C which is cold enough for good skin on the hands but not too cold. Am surprised that no shoe company has made/marketed a shoe for the slightly warmer temperatures, say sport climbing in Spain.
1
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Luckily for me, I like the cold (although gloves and down jacket often go on between attempts, when it's near freezing).
Lots of my mates struggle though - their fingers going white or yellow and they loose feeling, so I can appreciate different people handle the cold differently. I struggle in hot weather.
Luckily for me, I like the cold (although gloves and down jacket often go on between attempts, when it's near freezing).
Lots of my mates struggle though - their fingers going white or yellow and they loose feeling, so I can appreciate different people handle the cold differently. I struggle in hot weather.
In reply to afx22:
The idea that plenty of climbs are done in hot weather may be true but when I'm at my limit, I need all of the help I can get.
For instance - Otley Wall at Caley. It's a slab traverse into a slab up. Throw in a pebble, two monos, a two finger sidepull and a two finger dish - it's mainly all about finding good friction, especially through your feet. Body position and sequence are a factor too but friction is key. It's not about pulling on holds.
I nearly got it at the end of last year but lack of flexibility and bottle stopped me topping out. I tried it on and off through spring but fell off repeatedly, my feet slipping either on the traverse or heading upwards. You can feel the start of the slipping, just before your feet go. About three weeks ago I fell off the crux unexpectedly and landed straight legged. It was 15 degrees Celsius. Confidence was shot to bits.
I went back two weeks ago it was about 5 degrees or so. I could could waltz across the traverse and after a few go finally managed to top out. The difference in grips was phenomenal.
While I'd seen better climbers climb it on warmer days when I was struggling, the amount of grip and the confidence that came from the cold conditions, was black and white.
The idea that plenty of climbs are done in hot weather may be true but when I'm at my limit, I need all of the help I can get.
For instance - Otley Wall at Caley. It's a slab traverse into a slab up. Throw in a pebble, two monos, a two finger sidepull and a two finger dish - it's mainly all about finding good friction, especially through your feet. Body position and sequence are a factor too but friction is key. It's not about pulling on holds.
I nearly got it at the end of last year but lack of flexibility and bottle stopped me topping out. I tried it on and off through spring but fell off repeatedly, my feet slipping either on the traverse or heading upwards. You can feel the start of the slipping, just before your feet go. About three weeks ago I fell off the crux unexpectedly and landed straight legged. It was 15 degrees Celsius. Confidence was shot to bits.
I went back two weeks ago it was about 5 degrees or so. I could could waltz across the traverse and after a few go finally managed to top out. The difference in grips was phenomenal.
While I'd seen better climbers climb it on warmer days when I was struggling, the amount of grip and the confidence that came from the cold conditions, was black and white.
5
In reply to afx22:
Even before I get numb fingers, I find somehow before that, my fingers can feel glassy and loose most their friction. It’s not a strict temperature thing as I’ve been fine just above freezing on sunny still Alpine faces, but also found it a problem at 7 deg or so other times.
Even before I get numb fingers, I find somehow before that, my fingers can feel glassy and loose most their friction. It’s not a strict temperature thing as I’ve been fine just above freezing on sunny still Alpine faces, but also found it a problem at 7 deg or so other times.
Post edited at 20:24
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I know what you mean about the glassy fingers thing. It happened to me a few weeks back, at Slipstones. Great conditions and my hands slipped off so many of the arétes there.
I know what you mean about the glassy fingers thing. It happened to me a few weeks back, at Slipstones. Great conditions and my hands slipped off so many of the arétes there.
In reply to afx22:
In my experience on UK grit the colder it is the better the friction.
Friction for both rubber and skin come from the contacting surface being malleable enough to deform to the irregularities in the rock, while being stiff enough to retain that shape against lateral forces. The issue is keeping your body functioning as temps drop. If it's windy that can be a problem.
Squeaking boots warms the rubber as well as cleans it, but no one seems to do it anymore. It works.
'Glassy' nick comes from cold skin - get your skin warmed up and it goes away. If it's so cold you're going glassy higher up, get your core temp up before starting. On days with serious wind chill find some shelter from the wind.
Any damp (or frost) on the rock is obviously bad. Rising temperatures can cause condensation (think of the toilet cistern after you've had a shower). Wind usually helps with drying. But air temp, rock temp and humidity are all involved and it gets complex. But, yes, you can get great friction in fog or even freezing fog. Clear skies are generally better than low cloud but you do get inversions which bugger it up, local geography plays a part too.
In my experience on UK grit the colder it is the better the friction.
Friction for both rubber and skin come from the contacting surface being malleable enough to deform to the irregularities in the rock, while being stiff enough to retain that shape against lateral forces. The issue is keeping your body functioning as temps drop. If it's windy that can be a problem.
Squeaking boots warms the rubber as well as cleans it, but no one seems to do it anymore. It works.
'Glassy' nick comes from cold skin - get your skin warmed up and it goes away. If it's so cold you're going glassy higher up, get your core temp up before starting. On days with serious wind chill find some shelter from the wind.
Any damp (or frost) on the rock is obviously bad. Rising temperatures can cause condensation (think of the toilet cistern after you've had a shower). Wind usually helps with drying. But air temp, rock temp and humidity are all involved and it gets complex. But, yes, you can get great friction in fog or even freezing fog. Clear skies are generally better than low cloud but you do get inversions which bugger it up, local geography plays a part too.
14
In reply to stp:
I do think that's possibly because so many grit holds rely on your hand sticking on slopers. Far more reliance on slopers than any other rock types, even on easier routes.
Slate is far easier in the cold, and even the cromlech is IMO mich nicer on a cold day.
I do think that's possibly because so many grit holds rely on your hand sticking on slopers. Far more reliance on slopers than any other rock types, even on easier routes.
Slate is far easier in the cold, and even the cromlech is IMO mich nicer on a cold day.
In reply to Adam Long:
Sense at last!
Grit friction can also be good in the warmer months after rain, as the evaporation cools the rock (especially in wind); can also be OK in early morning before the sun hits as long as humidity doesn't exceed the dew point.. again wind can give quick cooling from dew in warming conditions. Simply said, cold dry rock is ideal and rubber and hands need to be warmer. In winter wear warm clothes and move to keep warm and squeek your boots.
I'd love to see some decent science done on this: tried a few times to get some sports scientists at my place interested, even offered a BSc or Msc major project but no takers yet.
Sense at last!
Grit friction can also be good in the warmer months after rain, as the evaporation cools the rock (especially in wind); can also be OK in early morning before the sun hits as long as humidity doesn't exceed the dew point.. again wind can give quick cooling from dew in warming conditions. Simply said, cold dry rock is ideal and rubber and hands need to be warmer. In winter wear warm clothes and move to keep warm and squeek your boots.
I'd love to see some decent science done on this: tried a few times to get some sports scientists at my place interested, even offered a BSc or Msc major project but no takers yet.
2
In reply to afx22:
It's not raining?
> What do you mean "as long as humidity doesn't exceed the dew point"?
It's not raining?
In reply to afx22:
There was a great little cartoon in one of the first Peak bouldering guides - a guy bouldering with icicles hanging off the rock. Caption has him saying 'Brilliant - its so cold your hands just stick to the rock'.
There was a great little cartoon in one of the first Peak bouldering guides - a guy bouldering with icicles hanging off the rock. Caption has him saying 'Brilliant - its so cold your hands just stick to the rock'.
2
In reply to Offwidth:
Does that answer his question? Isn't the dew point a temperature and if so, how can "humidity" exceed it?
Does that answer his question? Isn't the dew point a temperature and if so, how can "humidity" exceed it?
In reply to JackM92:
Why that's definitely true I've noticed the difference even while soloing fairly easy routes. I particularly remember one day when conditions were fairly average in the afternoon, not particularly humid or bad. Then as the sun started to go down in the evening the temperature dropped and even on VS's you could notice a big difference in the way your hands just stuck to the rock. Even though I've climbed on grit for many years the marked contrast between earlier and later in the day still surprised me.
> Far more reliance on slopers than any other rock types, even on easier routes.
Why that's definitely true I've noticed the difference even while soloing fairly easy routes. I particularly remember one day when conditions were fairly average in the afternoon, not particularly humid or bad. Then as the sun started to go down in the evening the temperature dropped and even on VS's you could notice a big difference in the way your hands just stuck to the rock. Even though I've climbed on grit for many years the marked contrast between earlier and later in the day still surprised me.
2
In reply to galpinos:
No, the dew point is the point where 100% humidity is reached as a function of Temperature and Pressure. However in practical terms in the UK, as the temperature drops towards freezing (the water vapour content of the air being roughly constant), humidity increases and the maximum humidity possible at ground level is almost always exceeded and liquid water forms, normally as mist/fog/dew or a bit earlier as dew if a surface is cooler than the air.
No, the dew point is the point where 100% humidity is reached as a function of Temperature and Pressure. However in practical terms in the UK, as the temperature drops towards freezing (the water vapour content of the air being roughly constant), humidity increases and the maximum humidity possible at ground level is almost always exceeded and liquid water forms, normally as mist/fog/dew or a bit earlier as dew if a surface is cooler than the air.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Loading Notifications...