UKC

I have been trying to improve my overall strength for injury prevention and to hopefully improve performance a little bit in my activities (climbing, ski touring and fell running)

So a year ago I started doing a bit of strength training once a week. (Having never previously done anything non cardio). I found I had quite strong lower body strength (I presume from years of fell running) and my core strength although quite weak at first has improved a lot. But I am really struggling with upper body exercises especially press ups but also pull ups. I just seem to be improving so slowly and I am getting frustrated with the lack of progress. (I am quite tall which I am told makes it harder for press ups but I don't want to use that as an excuse)

Anyone have any tips for improving a bit faster?

Or would even be nice to hear from other women who have improved their strength even if it took a long time that its worth persevering?

In reply to Elsier:

My weight flucuates a lot, once I have been fat for a while and lose weight I'm much stronger. Eat more pies?

Sorry, no more useful suggestions. I seem to build up muscle quite easily and have arms like Desperate Dan, I don't know if there is a genetic component or not.

In reply to Elsier:

I starting strength training regularly a few years ago to try and address some recurring running injuries. I do a very simple routine of compound lifts (bench press, squats, deadlifts, overhead press and bent over row) a few times a week and this has improved overall strength more quickly than when I was doing lots of different isolation lifts.

It took me ages to be able to do decent sets of push ups and pull ups though! I found press ups especially hard until I realised my form was off and when I changed my hand placement slightly, they were a lot easier!

In reply to Elsier:

I see a lot of people doing assisted pull ups with a rubber band in my gym. Might be worth checking out if you struggle with regular pull ups.
It's also possible to do knee assisted press ups (google).

In reply to shuffle:

Thanks that's quite interesting. I had assumed that I had to get strong at bodyweight exercises before any weights. I assumed that I would just get injured otherwise, but maybe that's an incorrect assumption. My local gym did an into to weight lifting for women last year, so I will look out for if they do the same thing again this year.

Maybe I also need to get a gym instructor or someone who knows what they are doing to check I am trying to do my press ups and pull ups correctly.

I wish I had started when I was younger, because I used to fell run a lot, and like you I was always getting injured, but I didn't listen to the advice I was given back then to do some strength training!

Still hopefully it will still be beneficial now.

In reply to Elsier:

You'll notice that at the walls you climb at, the fingerboards have a pulley under them, you can use the jugs on the Beastmaker 1000 for doing pull-up and a pulley system to SUBTRACT some weight try say 15-20kg. You can then systematically reduce the weight over time to zero.

In reply to douwe:

Thanks I did wonder if I am not doing a high enough volume.

I started out doing weight assisted pull ups but I recently installed a pull up bar at home, so do my strength training here instead as its easier to fit into my schedule.

I have improved from 2-4 pull ups in a year, so OK I guess, but i haven't improved from 4 for a while now. have also just recently started to try to do them twice a week, but the problem with that is if I do them once a week I can do 4 and twice a week I can only do 2, so its the same anyway!

I also do press ups on my knees, and again after a year I progressed to being able to do 1 proper press up. So there is progress but it is so slow.

I can do around 12 on my knees, so again not sure if this is high enough volume. Maybe I need to make it even easier and do more?

In reply to JLS:

Thanks that's a useful tip and saves Mme going to the gym on a different day which I don't have time for.

Is it OK to do them after climbing? I would be worried that I might get injured, or just not be able to do any even with a lot of weight assistance?

Also what volume should you aim for?

I honestly know nothing about strength training, should probably read up about it.

In reply to Elsier:

I was surprised too that it was possible to start with weights, but as long as you can handle the bar (20kg) you can start from there and just add further weight gradually as you get stronger. My gym also has a couple of 15kg training bars which would suit someone with less strength who was just starting out, or someone who was much smaller and couldn't manage the Olympic bar yet.

I would definitely recommend a beginners course or getting someone to check you are lifting with good form before you start adding weight. Lifting properly is much more important than adding a ton of weight.

I love strength training, and I'm really chuffed that as a 40 year old woman I am stronger now than I've ever been in my life!

In reply to Elsier:
Pull-ups - you should be able to rig the weight assist on you pull-up bars.
Go back to weight assist and do 2 sets of 10 with 2min rest between sets, try a third set of 12reps. If you manage 12 reduce the assist weight next session, if you can't manage 8 reps increase the assist weight. (Twice a week)

In reply to Elsier:

Do them mid climbing session after you feel warmed up, but still fresh. They'll only take 10 min.

In reply to shuffle:

That's really inspiring thanks! I am about to turn 38, so nice to know I haven't left it too late to get a bit stronger.

Will look out the weight training in the new year when I have a bit more time, as super busy with work till Christmas, so much more limited time available.

In reply to JLS:

Thanks, will try that and see how I get on

In reply to Elsier:

It's never too late!

In reply to Elsier:

Shuffle is spot on.

Beginners (i.e. anyone who's never completed a basic strength program) will benefit most from a systematic approach that

- utilises compound (multi-joint) movements
- works all of the major human motions
- allows progressive overload over time

For a healthy trainee the key movements should include the squat, deadlift and a power-based 'triple extension' exercise for the lower body; the bench press, overhead press, row and pull-up for the upper body. That's a minimum, and is probably sufficient for nearly everyone.

Use as light a weight as you need to complete the movement: for perspective physios have good results loading very weak patients with just a broomstick and adding tiny weights over time. The key thing is not weight as such, but quality of movement.

Beginner programs use a linear progression for overload: if you complete the day's session with no setbacks, you add a small amount of weight the next time you work that movement. (I can't stress enough here that a setback would absolutely include a dirty rep where through pride and / or exhaustion you get the weight up any old how. Good form is essential.)

Initial gains will be rapid, as your neuromuscular system learns the movements. Over time you'll maximise the capability of your existing muscle mass. It's your choice whether to modify your training accordingly to progress, or alternatively just maintain at this level. If you're training 3-5x per week, you should see yourself plateau in most if not all of the exercises within 8 to 12 weeks or so. You'll certainly see noticeable improvements in your other activities by this point.

I'd highly recommend you buy and follow this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Starting-Strength-Basic-Barbell-Training/dp/098252...

While some of Mr Rippetoe's ideas are a bit dogmatic for more advanced lifters, the fundamental approach is safe and effective. Especially as regards quality of movement. Clearly, not getting injured is key, and the book clearly explains safe methods of setting up and performing the lifts. The program outlined in the book is a classic beginner routine and has been used successfully by thousands of people.

I'd also recommend adding in Dan John's goblet squat on a more or less daily basis (it's a perfect warmup exercise), as it bulletproofs the lower body. A short article by the man himself:

https://www.t-nation.com/training/goblet-squats-101

In reply to Murderous_Crow:

Thanks that's all really helpful!

In reply to Elsier:

Hope so! Like Shuffle you may well find you love it; there's something very satisfying about picking heavy things up with skill. And such strength really is transferable to daily life. Stretch lots after training though!

Luke

In reply to Elsier:


I'm not a girl, but coincidentally I did start climbing at 38, so not too late. Just ignore the teens and twenty something's, they get strong fast, and take things at your own pace.

In reply to Elsier:

I am 55. Started climbing at 48; just this year have been working with weights. Progress is very slow; but it is much more fun than I expected and has made me much happier on steeper climbs, at least indoors.

In reply to Elsier:

In my personal experience, progress will come but not necessarily as quickly as you want it to! But it is never too late - I started weight training in a more focussed way at age 32. My starting deadlift was 30kg, it's now 70kg. Pull ups/chin ups, however, I still can't do a single one unaided...

Form is everything - get a decent instructor, or watch some YouTube vids. I see people at my gym all the time with appalling form - a quick way to injury. As for press ups, I found doing bicep curl followed by tricep dips, 4 sets of 10, 3 times a week, helped my press ups a lot, as did starting by only going down a little bit rather than nose to the floor. That will come in time. And most of all, don't beat yourself up if you have weaker days and try to enjoy it!

In reply to Elsier:
My strength training is purely bodyweight (I tried lifting, it just doesn't interest me).

I think you need to be training 2-4 days a week. You need more volume than you are doing now to see improvements, but don't overdo it because overtraining is just as bad.

Start with regressions - knee push-ups and assisted/jump pull-ups. Do them until they are comfortable before moving on. When you decide to move on to the next progression, work on the negative movement (e.g., the let-down part of a pull-up) and get that smooth before adding the positive movement. Really really focus on form (this may cost you reps). If your form gets scrappy, either stop, or regress the movement to finish your set.

For push-ups in particular, if you are struggling, get someone to check your form. As someone else said, a couple of minor tweaks can really help (and can also prevent shoulder impingement problems).

Periodise your training. Don't just do the same routine every session. Plenty of advice on this online.

Have a long-term strength-related goal and work towards it. Mine are currently pistol squats and a solid free handstand (30 seconds free - used to have one of these, I want it back!). Working on the latter in particular gives me a little fun even at the end of a bad session.

Look at your flexibility/mobility. Poor mobility can make some bodyweight stuff a lot harder, particular if it your hips or shoulders that are tight. Also, you said lower-body stuff was ok for you, but if you have poor ankle mobility some squat-based movements can be harder.

Video yourself. Unless you are a narcissist, you will feel like an idiot doing it, but watching them back will highlight small improvements over time that you might not have noticed.

If you feel more comfortable reading or going to women's specific stuff that's fine, but don't feel like you have to restrict yourself to that - information targeted at men is just as relevant and there is more of it.

Have fun!

In reply to Elsier:
I would consider using a suspension trainer, you can modify the excercises so you can complete then with good form and you can target specific areas of weakness. Don’t buy a TRX get a cheaper alternative as this will serve you just as well. Most come with an excercise leaflet. They are particularly useful at strengthening the whole shoulder area which can really help with any imbalances that pull ups / press ups can emphasise.

In reply to Elsier:

I'm not a woman but there are various strength training principles that apply to everyone. One these is change what you're doing every 6 to 8 weeks. So if you've been doing pull ups the same way for a year - or even a couple of months - you need to change how you train. There are many ways to do this.

You might want to increase the amount of volume you're doing, either training more days per week or more sets per session. If you're only doing 3 to 4 pull ups per set then I think trying for a total of 35 - 40 per session is a good minimum which implies doing 10 sets.

You could switch to doing eccentric reps only for 6 weeks or so. That is only doing the lowering part of the exercise and using a stool to get yourself to the top of the bar. We're much stronger just lowering so that will allow you to do more reps per set. If you can do more than 10 you might even want to add some weight to keep the exercise hard enough.

You could add some chin ups into your workout (that is palms facing you). Most people are stronger in this position because you're using the your biceps more than in a regular pull up. So as the weak link in the arms is stronger that means you can work your lats harder too.

Another completely different technique is greasing the groove. Here the idea is to do as many pull ups as you can in a day whilst minimizing the amount of fatigue. So you only do as many reps as you feel comfortable doing (I'd guess around 1 - 2) and then take a good rest and return to the bar every 5 or 10 mins, for a good a chunk of the day. This kind of training is only suitable if you're at home all day and have a bar to train on. You train like that for 6 days a week.

But anyway the key thing is change what you're doing if you're not progressing. And as your muscles get stronger you need to tweak the stimulus on a regular basis to prevent plateaus.

In reply to Elsier:

Not sure a male voice is appropriate on this thread, but I noticed you've led E1 and yet you can do "only" 4 pull-ups. I do 20 minute pull-up sessions on the mid row of the Beastmaker 1000 (so two joints only). I do a pyramid session, 1 up to 8 and back to 1, with 30 seconds rest per pull-up. And yet I too can only lead E1 at best .

I think it's true that women in general can progress much further in climbing with less upper body strength. I'm not sure why that should be but it could have something to do with better style....

Martin

In reply to Elsier:

I'm not sure how much my advice will be worth (as I an probably the exact opposite in strengths/weakness) but you will be surprised at how powerful you can be when you activate the fast twitch muscle fibers and actually try to do excersises powerfully.

Once technique has been established you will find that leaving the static movement at home and training powerfully can possibly surprise you with improvements in push ups, pulls ups or whatever you train.

A wise (rather large) man once told me..."just pick a few exercises and get frigging good at them" and don't complicate your routine.

In reply to Elsier:

My personal experience is a little different to that recommended here. For reference, I'm a 36 year old woman, and started strength training in my late twenties. I find that I really only make strength gains when I go for high weights, low reps, ie around 3-5 reps in 3-5 sets. Beyond the steep gains curve of my initial beginner/ coming back after time off periods, going for high volumes does nothing for me beyond maintenance.

I also find that whilst I'm only able to train lower body exercises (squat/deadlift) once a week, I can do upper body twice a week no problem, presumably because I just can't shift heavy enough weights to damage my arm muscles like I can for my leg muscles.

I definitely would echo other peoples' advice about taking a course or a few PT lessons to get good form with your exercises - pushups are loads easier with good form! If you're anywhere near the area, I went on this course a while back, highly recommended http://strengthambassadors.com/ladies-who-lift/

And I totally feel your frustration with how slow progress feels, especially upper body. But it's totally worth persevering with, it does come, just not fast. Look forward to the day that you catch yourself warming up with your previous PB

In reply to Elsier:

I'm surprised you are experiencing muscle fatigue when attempting pull up sets twice a week - I have a similar issue currently with poor recovery, which I can clearly identify as a diet issue, about two months ago I became a much more strict vegetarian, and it is affecting my recovery - so maybe worth ensuring your body has all that it needs to maintain and build muscle?

In reply to annak:

Thanks everyone for all the advice, looks like a lot of really good tips, some of which I think will take a little time to digest/ read through and incorporate into my routine.

I think in the short term I'm going to try to increase the volume by a combination of making the exercises easier and trying to do them more often.

I've also been recommended the TRX/suspension trainer exercises, as I've been told my shoulder engagement when climbing needs improvement, so I'm definitely going to try those too.

Also having looked up a few flexibility exercises, it looks as though my shoulders mobility isn't great so I'm going to try to do something about that too.

Then I think I can review properly in the New Year when I have a bit more time and think about whether I want to add weight training and whether I can find some classes to show me how to do these things properly and check that I'm doing things in the right way.

Thanks!

In reply to Elsier:


If shoulder engagement is a weakness for you, this may also be affecting your pull-ups. Have a look at the exercise in step 1 here: https://gmb.io/pull-ups/?pageid=84520 I found this useful in teaching myself how to recruit and engage my shoulders and upper back, both for climbing and pull-ups, and I still regularly use this.

(The rest of the stuff on that page might be good to look at too).

In reply to kathrync:

If my hands are too close together on pull-ups I can't engage my shoulders. For me at least, the BM jugs aren't far enough apart. Be very careful with pull-ups as any poor form will mess with your elbows.

Other general thing is that young people, and young men in particular, seem to put on muscle with alarming ease. I strongly suspect that older ladies (I'm 50) do not and therefore have to work at it rather more.

WRT reps - I'm sure I saw something on the telly a while ago that appeared to prove that one got the same value from a small number of reps with bigs weights as from a large number of reps with smaller weights, as long as one went into the trying really hard zone.