/ Lying in politics

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MG - on 07 Dec 2017
Is there now not even a pretence that lying in politics is unacceptable? Davis' comments from yesterday are secondary headlines at best. I'm struggling to think of a more blatant way to state you are both a liar and utterly incompetent, but it's if nothing has happened.

pasbury on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to MG:

The bloody committee voted on party lines and he escaped being held in contempt of parliament. However Hilary Benn's face during the 'interview' with the naughty schoolboy is absolutely priceless.

The story does not seem to be getting the prominence it deserves. If I did something like this at work - I'd be out on my ear.
ClimberEd - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to MG:

I can't find it but I read a very good article after Trump and Brexit in something reasonably authoritative (may well have been the Economist) about how nothing matters in politics anymore (/at the moment (hopefully)) other than spin and message.

Facts and reality no longer matter.
People who want Brexit really wont care about an impact assessment and David Davis knows this.
pasbury on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to ClimberEd:

It matters if you're using food banks or can't heat your house because your universal credit hasn't come through, or your job disappears to Europe.

I'd like to know what David Davis has actually achieved in his post as Brexit Secretary. I don't imagine it will be a long list but I cannot think of anything at all.
artif on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to MG:

You are either 6 years old or have led a very sheltered life
Lying, incompetence and total disregard for anyone other than yourself are prerequisites for a job in politics.
For a prolonged career in politics, the ability to not answer any question, is also required.

Funny how people still vote for them (either side, they are all as bad as each other).
krikoman - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to artif:

> Funny how people still vote for them (either side, they are all as bad as each other).

What other choices do we have?
MG - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to artif:

> Lying, incompetence and total disregard for anyone other than yourself are prerequisites for a job in politics.

That's not true, or at least not until now. I can't think of another instance in the UK of a politician openly admitting to lying and there not being a real reaction.
artif on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to MG:

Blair and his excuse for going to war??????
See my other comment about not answering, as well..
artif on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to krikoman:

Sadly not a lot
Robert Durran - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to artif:

> Lying, incompetence and total disregard for anyone other than yourself are prerequisites for a job in politics.

Simply not true. Most MP's are in it to make a positive difference. Unfortunately there are a few bad eggs and the good ones tend to get tarred by the same brush (such as in your post).
MG - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to artif:
> Blair and his excuse for going to war??????
For which he was widely criticized and ultimately lost his job. Further, while deeply mendacious, he didn't directly lie in this way

> See my other comment about not answering, as well..
Different topic.
Post edited at 10:38
pasbury on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to artif:

> Blair and his excuse for going to war??????

Well he was lied to in turn by Bush.
Dave Garnett - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to artif:

> Blair and his excuse for going to war??????

Woeful as it was, even this was arguably wilful blindness rather than outright dishonesty. And at least he's paid a price for it.

I agree that the apparent acceptability of an outright lie is new, and seems to have happened in the last US election and the Brexit referendum. Previously, it was about how much spin you could get away with; to be caught out in an straightforward lie was political death. No longer, apparently.
artif on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:

I like your optimism, but i don't share it.
Even local councillers have the same mentality.
Living and working all over the country I get to hear the same stories everywhere I go.
pasbury on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Robert Durran:
Agreed, the MPs I've known (as a constituent) have been genuine and hard-working but they are whipped so perhaps honesty and integrity takes a battering as a consequence of the job.
Post edited at 10:51
Ridge - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to artif:

> You are either 6 years old or have led a very sheltered life

> Lying, incompetence and total disregard for anyone other than yourself are prerequisites for a job in politics.

> For a prolonged career in politics, the ability to not answer any question, is also required.

> Funny how people still vote for them (either side, they are all as bad as each other).

I don't necessarily disagree with the above, but your post shows how bad things have become. Politicians have always been econonomical with the truth, but we have now tipped over to the point where blatant lying is now seen as being acceptable.

As per Robert Durran's post above, even a decent politician, ( there probably are a few), cannot effect change because no one believes in them or bothers to vote for them. By not voting you're not hurting the bad politicians or making a protest, you're simply acquiescing to what is in effect a one party state.

I honestly don't see things getting any better. I simply hold my nose in the voting booth and vote for what I think is the least bad option.
The Lemming - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to pasbury:


> I'd like to know what David Davis has actually achieved in his post as Brexit Secretary.

The job title and prestige.
jethro kiernan - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to MG:

I know we elect our politicians as representatives for a constituency and that is a relatively hard job to measure. However taking on a ministerial role is different and should be treated like a job in the real world with competency assessments and no moonlighting as Journalist/director/consultant having two jobs is enough you shouldn't be paid to write articles when you should be reading your ministerial briefs.
There should be a way of removing someone for being an incompetent minister at some form of committee level? we have a cabinet of fools chosen to balance out party differences rather than competence.
Maybe it's because off the importance of the events they are expected to manage that is highlighting their incompetence but the rest of the world is holding their head in their hands. Read the editorials in leading national papers around the world and our standing has dropped considerably more than the pound.
If trump hadn't set such a low benchmark it would be even lower!
Although Churchill was seen as the key player during the war he had an extremely competent cabinet behind him, people who were able to keep his obvious weaknesses in check and come up with competent plans for complex and vital areas they were responsible for, can you imagine this shower of fools being in the same situation?
artif on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to Ridge:

I do vote.
Only as a damage limitation exercise. Certainly not because I believe the BS being spouted by the pathetic politicians.
The Lemming - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to MG:

> Is there now not even a pretence that lying in politics is unacceptable? Davis' comments from yesterday are secondary headlines at best.

If you were in a negotiation process with an individual who admitted to not telling the truth how would you treat and deal with them?

And what repercussions will this have for the UK's Brexit bid?
pasbury on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

I suppose as it was a new position he could write his own job description to a certain extent.



Unfortunately he wrote 'Do f*ck all'.
The Lemming - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> I suppose as it was a new position he could write his own job description to a certain extent.

Are we a lucky country that the Maybot won the leadership contest rather than Mr lier lier pants on fire?

pasbury on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

I actually have a small and grudging shred of respect left for the poor woman. She doesn't appear to lie or stab people in the back or sit around doing bugger all.
The Lemming - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to pasbury:

> She doesn't appear to lie or stab people in the back

Have you asked the police that question?
krikoman - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to MG:

> That's not true, or at least not until now. I can't think of another instance in the UK of a politician openly admitting to lying and there not being a real reaction.

Blair's rendition of Abdul-Hakim Belha to Gaddafi?
Ciro - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

> If you were in a negotiation process with an individual who admitted to not telling the truth how would you treat and deal with them?

> And what repercussions will this have for the UK's Brexit bid?

The EU are largely going to dicatate what our relationship looks like anyway, so I'm not sure it makes all that much difference to the negotiations.

The main problem is the message being sent out to everybody else. If you were a German business man for example, and you were looking around europe for a new supplier or an investment opportunity, would you have anything to do with a country run by this shower? If you're an opportunist disaster capitalist the answer might be yes but if you're looking for stability you're going to run a mile.
Ian W - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to The Lemming:

> Are we a lucky country that the Maybot won the leadership contest rather than Mr lier lier pants on fire?

Did you have to bring that up?
Jesus H Christ, what on earth has happened to any talent or integrity at the top? Knowing what we do now, that must have been the most talent free leadership election ever. Having Davis at No 10 is a frightening prospect.

Myself and the current Mrs W were just looking for reruns of Yes Minister / The New Statesman to give us a more accurate assessment of current political standards.
jkarran - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to artif:

> Funny how people still vote for them (either side, they are all as bad as each other).

Personally I think this attitude is a much bigger problem than MG asking the question 'has something changed?'. It disengages people, it convinces them they're powerless which makes them powerless.

These useless lying toads work for us whether we like it or not and we don't have to accept more lying toads in exchange when the time comes to be rid of them. We can do better, we deserve better.

Davis' negligence and dishonesty would be criminal were he a doctor. It's a stain on all of us.
jk
Tyler - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to MG:
I'm on holiday in Spain so away from radio and TV. I saw the clip all over my partisan twitter feed so went to the Tory graph website thinking even they cannot bury this - nothing. So went to BBC website and nothing there either despite them giving frequent prominence to Farage's every utterance. Now the genie is out of the bottle and we know there is no accountability we can expect our politicians to get worse, this sort of environment will favour the liars, bullshitters and stirrers over the thoughtful and considered
Post edited at 13:31
artif on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to jkarran:

We are far from powerless, but you are right in that people are totally disengaged.
I think politicians should have a finite time in their job, say 8 years max. They should then go back to the day job, get rid of the career minded types who are afraid of losing their nice little job and pension if they upset the wrong person.
MG - on 07 Dec 2017

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