UKC

I'll occasionally head into the hills on my own for a tour, but it always feels much more committing than going for a walk alone, being on skis feels more like soloing an easy mountain route.

I'm reasonably mountain aware and a competent skier, and will try to stack the odds in my favour e.g. non-glaciated routes with a good weather forecast and stable snow conditions, mobile phone signal occasionally available.

How do the other UKC skiers feel about it? Rarely see anyone else out alone and wondering if I'm taking bigger risks than I realise

In reply to Sam W:

An avalanche never happens until it does...

In reply to Sam W:

I've done it in Scotland in the past but have done the vast majority of my touring in North Norway and then always with at least one other person and normally in a group of half a dozen or so. I guess avalanche awareness and then having avalanche gear is such a big part of ski touring, that is what make solo ski touring feel committing. Not really much point in having a transceiver if on your own I guess.

I did go on my own to ski up Helvellyn a couple of winters back, but I had hardly left the car park when I saw two other skiers getting their kit out of their van and when I said hello, the guy said "Are you TobyA from UKC?" which was weird but cool! I then had a great day skiing with Simon and Rachel - and we all had beepers on so could have dug each other out if it all had gone very pear shaped!

In reply to Sam W:
I work away and often have days off when everyone else is working so i do head out on my own or just me and my dogs in Scotland. As you say far more selective of conditions and locations when alone. As with any outdoor sport its all risk management.

In regions where I ski a lot (northern French Alps, California Sierra, Utah Wasatch), lots of skiers go out for single-day tours on (non-glaciated) terrain alone. Maybe you don't see them as much in France if you tour mostly from huts.

I do it pretty often myself.
Later in the season with a big snowpack I also ski on glaciers - (on days and at places where multi-person French parties ski unroped).

I agree that it feels a lot like soloing an easy mountain rock route (which I also love).

I think my deep key to safety is to have other sports which I really enjoy close by in that same region. For me they are cross-country ski skating, indoor or outdoor rock climbing, and lift-served downhill skiing at stations with aggressive avalanche control -- so I'm not tempted to go out ski touring when there's any significant probability of avalanche or weak bridges over hidden crevasses.

Also since I keep going back to the same regions, I feel confident that if some desired route is not safe enough this week, I can wait until I come back for it in a future month or future year.

Three dangerous problems with touring with a group are inability to change plans in the face of changing conditions, and temptation to try skiing a less-safe line to show off in front of an audience, and temptation to believe that they will be able dig out a victim fast enough to prevent lifetime brain damage.

I do carry a SPOT - (but I also carry it when out touring with partners).

Ken

In reply to Sam W:
I used to tour on my own in the Cairngorms quite frequently, but rarely other than in good conditions (the only exception was the occasional trip into the northern corries in poor visibility. Not sure why but always wore a transceiver. Some trips were quite short, often after work once the clocks had changes but included some longer trips such as Glasmaol to Lochnagar & Glen Muic and a circuit from Cairngorm carpark to Ben Macdhui, Beinn Mheadhoin & back to the carpark.

Have very rarely toured alone in the Alps and usually just gentle trips mostly along valleys in places I know quite well, sometimes very simple tours up to easy cols and only when the conditions are good. But I have climbed the occasional hill on my own on skis.

In reply to Sam W:

For me, but never having toured solo, I think it would depend on whether the risk of injury or damage to equipment, thereby putting yourself in danger, is considered acceptable. I guess it's the same for skiing off-piste by yourself which I have done. I have seen solo ski tourers, quite common when I think about it, in the Alps, although these skiers were at least in areas where help may be summoned. Totally by yourself may be a bit too much, at least in the Alps?

In reply to Sam W:

Even without avalanche or crevasse risk, you can still get hurt and suddenly be very isolated. I broke my leg in several places while touring alone once, and wouldn't do it again. Without a partner or cell signal, a simple injury becomes quite an ordeal, and benightment and hypothermia significant risks. But as with everything it's a personal choice.

In reply to Sam W:

Interesting responses, and sounds like everyone's thinking along similar lines. Avalanche is the little voice that badgers me most frequently when out alone, but I'm well aware that even in a group an avalanche could mean instant death, and then if you survive the initial impact, there's no guarantee that friends will dig you out before you suffocate. Avoidance is always the best route to take.

My preference would definitely be to tour with friends, but as for most, decent snow conditions and partners with free time don't often coincide. We're off to the Alps over Christmas, looks like there's tons of snow, just need to keep an eye on stability.

In reply to Sam W:

This popped up on Facebook a few minutes ago, huge (controlled) avalanche in La Clusaz this morning

https://www.facebook.com/rom.montimart/videos/511499522552864/

In reply to Sam W:
Skiing alone is just another factor when deciding what to ski. Usually it means I ski terrain less than 30deg steep. I also make very detailed plans with etas, and leave them with someone. Then I update my status when I can during the outing. I can't think of a trip I've done in the last few years where I haven't had some occasional mobile reception. I even had mobile reception while on a climb in Greenland.

In reply to Sam W:
I often tour around Cham alone, but never on glaciated terrain if away from frequented areas. More like Aiguilles Rouge or similar. I often ski off piste on glaciated terrain and the level of risk is nothing like touring, But I do have a level of hard won awareness and I think you,re less likely to go down a hole whilst skiing downhill and able to recognise hidden crevasses. Might be deluding myself and as for a previous comment it doesn't, go until it does! Caught in an avalanche is very scary.
Also very good mobile reception in Mont Blanc range which seems to reassure (maybe stupidly)

In reply to Sam W:

Over the whole piece,, probably 50/50 solo or small groups. I like solo, but prefer company. Which means I have a good day either way

My most committing days, combining graded climbing, tend to be solo 'cos so few ski tourers also climb.....

In reply to CampbellForbes:


I guess you could always attach some treats to your hat/hood and just shout 'whats this! whats this!' before you drop in on your spicy line.

In reply to Sam W:

I find myself doing my most technically difficult and remote skiing solo. I am fully aware of the risk of injury to self, of avalanche, of issues with navigation, of.... However, I mitigate these through experience, carrying the right kit, and a cautious approach.

For me, the draw is one of being solely responsible for my decision-making, for being in some phenomenal locations in a very considered way, and being very comfortable with the environment I'm in. It's a very hard state of mind to communicate, but there is (to me) something very alluring and calming about being the only one there to deal with the situation as it presents itself. It is really calming when one is in the right mindset!

In reply to Sam W:

You can often tour on your own in busy places, but I do tour here and in France in isolated places, but am careful...probably the greatest risk is a bad fall in an isolated region. I always have a Zarski sack with me.

In reply to Conor1:

Why I carry a SPOT.

Also why I ski solo with a heavier (non-Tech) binding which allows a lower release setting, and I think uses a better-proven design for more reliable release in a wider variety of combinations of forces and torques.

People tell me it makes no sense to tour with that extra weight on each foot, but I personally know two people who broke bones when a Tech binding failed to release, and I got a very severe bruise when I skied on a Tech binding (while my regular touring skis with heavier binding were in the shop) -- I was able to somehow ski out (instead of calling for a rescue with my SPOT), but had to end my trip and change my flight to go home several days early.


Even with a partner, an injury will likely be very problematic. What exactly is one partner supposed to do which makes it so much better, if you're not able to ski?

In reply to top cat:

I've heard that more than 65 years ago most serious climbers were also skiers - (I suspect because at that time serious climbing tended to be correlated with wealth).

One of my favorite solo tours (on a sunny stable day around late March or April in a good snow year) is to start from the Grands Montets top station, up across the Col du Passon, then Col Sup du Tour, and climb the Aiguille du Tour. Then continue circling around the Aig Tour, down W and then down S across Col du Midi Grand and across the Glac du Tour, finish at village of Le Tour, and shuttle bus return to Argentiere / G M base station.

Variation would be to finish at Trient Switzerland (but so far I have not been motivated to that level of pre-organization just for myself -- guess I need some partmers). Another obvious variation is to start over Col du Chardonnet and Fenetre du Saliena, but it's laborious to down-climb the Chardonnet N side and I hate to carrry the weight of a rope when out solo. Anyway my "normal" start over Col du Passon is plenty fun and spectacular with less time and effort.

I've tried other combinations of skiing with non-difficult climbing, but so far none have inspired me to go back again and again like Aig du Tour.

Ken

In reply to Sam W:

It's a 3/5 day here in Chamonix, and I'm about to set off on a solo ski tour with the dog.

If you know the terrain and you've always got an eye on your options for bailing, as well as plans A, B, and C available according to what you find along the way - just the same as when you are touring with a partner or a group - then there's really nothing to worry about, in my opinion. If you've got reason to be worried, then you are in the wrong place.

In reply to kenr:

Render first aid for a start, call help if you're unconscious...dig you out...the list could be quite long....

In reply to Jim 1003:


or then again: slow you down, trigger an avvy on you, run you over, steal your lunch, argue over the line, get injured so you have to stop and help, thus spoiling your day, destroy the ambience of the mountains by talking incessantly on their mobile phones... the list could be quite long....

In reply to Jim 1003:

I'm not seeing how the list has any more items than what you already gave.
Anyway those three items are surely important.

Especially with some avalanche Partial burial configurations, a partner could make a big difference. But for many other configurations, just carrying a shovel myself could greatly raise my survival probability (something I should do more often when out solo?)

Crevassse: Some (survivable) crevasse-fall situations could be helped greatly by a partner, but for many crevasse situations - (especially since most ski tourers are unroped most of the time, and unroped in the more dangerous situations) - it's very tricky for a single partner to effectively help. There was a case in the last three years on Mont Blanc with a multi-person guided party, where even a helicopter team could not extricate a conscious trapped skier in good weather, so he slowly died.
. . (there is a piece of equipment which I carry, not only for solo, which helps avoid that result).

Anyway I was responding to situation described by Conor1 above as specifically Non-avalanche and Non-crevassse, with the skier conscious with a broken leg.

Not many non-avalanche-full-burial _skiing_ accidents result in survivable unconsciousness.

So if I have a SPOT or a working phone connection, then I don't need a partner to call for help.

First Aid?
Not many survivable _skiing_ accidents result in major external bleeding.
Not many survivable non-avalanche-full-burial _skiing_ accidents result in a need for artificial respiration / CPR.

Avalanche full burial? The historical probabilities of survival without permanent brain damage -- given a single partner to perform your rescue -- are not higher than 50%.

. . (More solo tourers nowadays are skiing with an Air Bag System).

Summary for me so far:
Having a partner for skiing helps raise my survival probability _somewhat_ in case of an accident.
. . . but . . .
Need to balance that against the number of times where a partner's actions or lack of communication or lack of competence exposed me to a significantly higher risk of _getting_ into an accident.

Ken

In reply to kenr:

What is the piece of equipment you mention with respect to crevasse falls?

In reply to James Jackson:

cyanide tablets?

In reply to kenr:


Good luck using either of those in a crevasse...

In reply to captain paranoia:
Why are you so confident that a SPOT (as opposed to mobile phone) will not work in a _survivable_ crevasse fall.

Bear in mind that most skiers in crevasse terrain in the European Alps in multi-person parties most of the time are unroped.

Ken

In reply to James Jackson:

Turns out that in (survivable) crevasse falls by skiers (around Mont Blanc anyway), frequent problem is that they get _wedged_ in the V bottom of the crevasse, feet+skis down, head up (because unlike most alpine climbers) they were unroped.

So even if the rescuers have a helicopter with a winch cable and a hook, they cannot reach your harness to _connect_ it to you effectively. Your partners, even if they have a full set of pulleys, and can figure out from vague memories from some climbing course how to use them, they still cannot connect to your harness.

To help avoid this (with partners or solo), I attach a sling or lanyard to my harness belay loop, and also attach it to my pack high up by my shoulder.

Whether non-helicopter-assisted partners could apply enough pulling force to extricate me from sintered snow with melt-thaw bonding to me clothing is another question.

Ken

In reply to kenr:


Because it relies on a line-of-sight RF communications link with both the GPS constellation (downlink), and the signalling data satellites (up and down links). This line-of-sight link will not work through snow, ice or rock, and will not bend around the terrain.

A crevasse is a very narrow canyon, and obscures almost all the sky. If you're lucky, and the crevasse runs N-S, you may just see the SPOT satellite every now and then.

SPOT has trouble at high latitudes with obscuration by mountains towards the equator, never mind the extreme case of a crevasse.

In reply to kenr:

Ah... I'd call that good practice rather than a magic bit of kit! Many people go half way and have a sling attached, but then clipped to a rear gear loop on their harness. Also not much good if wedged, but clipping it up higher probably* is more useful in a wedged-crevasse scenario.

* insert science here

In reply to captain paranoia:

If they have engineered it properly, they will be recording the last good fix, and will send that, in lieu of a current fix. But you still have to catch the SPOT satellite. In a viewing window probably a few degrees wide.

In reply to captain paranoia:
Thanks for your careful analysis of the SPOT problems.

Especially I had not thought about the worse problem of falling into an East-West aligned crevasse. Since most of the glaciers in Europe are at least 45 degrees N latitude, I guess an E-W crevasse does not have to be very deep to lose any chance of satellite contact. Thanks for the concrete example of high-latitude mountains blocking line--of-sight to (oh Yes why hadn't I given attention to the implications of) equatorial satellites.

Which gives further force to my strategy of being ...
much more "picky" about what days or seasons to go out on which places on crevassed glaciers solo ... than many (unroped) experienced local French skiers (never mind parties on a week's holiday from Paris or UK).

I think of crevasse-fall risk as a varying hazard which needs to be assessed much like avalanche risk. So I think about recent weather, seasonal history, type of crevasses in specific touring locations . . . Only go out on crevassed terrain if everything is favorable.
. . . (So some years I might not go onto any significantly-crevassed terrain the entire season -- perhaps do all of my late-spring touring instead in the (unglaciated) high Sierra of California).

Ken

In reply to James Jackson:

Yes, and actually not relevant to this topic of solo touring.

But could be a matter of life and death (especially if bad weather is coming in so time is short for the rescuers to somehow figure out how to melt ice around your stomach to reach your belay loop).

Just "good practice" -- but not well known to most of us who learned our glacier-travel and crevasse-rescue procedures in the context of alpine _climbing_ (because climbers typically do not get wedged).

It would be a shame if you "did everything right" -- traveled with partners instead of solo, carrying full crevasse rescue gear, chose a tour with good mobile-phone coverage -- and then died anyway because of this last skier-specific glitch.

Ken

In reply to kenr:

Absolutely agree. I picked it up from skiing with very experienced friends, likewise the multitude of other 'hints and tips' that make things faster, hopefully safer, and thereby help to minimise risk.

In reply to Sam W:

I mostly ski in Scotland because that's where I live, I try to get out skiing as often as I can 95% of which will be solo. Never really thought about it being any more dangerous than skiing with a friend. Yes, you could fall down and hurt yourself but it could just as easily happen when you're with someone else. Yes, you could trigger your very own avalanche but you can also avoid that by not skiing like an idiot. I don't get to the Alps very often these days but skiing glaciers solo would very much depend on which glacier it was.

In reply to kenr:




Thats not my experience, guides will usually make parties rope up in heavily crevassed areas, and most parties I see do rope up in crevassed areas...

In reply to Jim 1003:
Really? roped up when they're skiing _down_ through a crevassed area?

For sure on any sunny day from February thru April, many _guided_ parties are skiing down from the Aiguille du Midi lift top station on well-crevassed glaciers without roping up.

Anyway it's not obvious that most skier crevasse falls happen in "heavily crevassed" areas.

Since the way most non-locals "know" that an area is heavily crevassed is because they can _see_ the crevasses. But it's the ones you cannot see which are dangerous to competent skiers. Of course for incompetent downhill skiers (often visiting France or Switz from regions where they cannot get much relevant downhill practice), the visible ones are dangerous.

Anyway it's on descent that crevasses are more dangerous: because later in the day when bridges have softened, because downhill turns put more impact on local areas of the snow surface, and because each skier is taking a different line instead of following uphill the tested line of the lead trail-breaking skier.

And of course many visiting skiers want to ski on a glacier in powder just after a fresh snowfall, which is a more dangerous time (especially if the snow came down with wind).

So most multi-person parties (guided or otherwise) are skiing unroped exactly in situations where it's more dangerous to be unroped.

Ken

In reply to Sam W:

I do it, and a lot of people do it where I live. However, I live in Andorra, so we know the terrain and get to watch the snowpack develop day by day. And of course, it's non-glaciated. I've done it around Cham too but carefully, on terrain I know and being even more cautious than I would be if in a group.

For me the risks are too great though I have skied solo in Scotland. It is not only the clear risks out there it is the hassle of returning home if incapacitated i.e cannot drive or just returning to you vehicle; all magnified if you cannot speak the language.
I have hiked on the Appalachian Trail and walked the John Muir Trail in the Sierras. If solo the perceived wisdom in the wilderness is that if you are seriously injured you swallow masses of Ibuprofen and crawl out. I understand it has been done but not for me.

In reply to kenr:

Really, don't misquote, I didn't say anything about skiing down roped up because it's never done. You do post incessant bollocks...

In reply to Jim 1003:

I've done it twice. I'd rather not do it again.

Roped together while going _uphill_ on skins with non-expert partners is not so great either -- if on terrain steep enough to require kick-turn / conversions. Managing the rope while zig-zagging up a steep slope. Unlike when climbing on crampons, the transitions between zig- and zag- can be difficult for many otherwise competent partners.

Anyway many guided parties (and lots of other experienced parties) around Chamonix ski uphill on crevassed glaciers _unroped_ more distance than roped. I'll guess they rope up only on crevassed terrain gentle enough not to require kick-turns. That's what my guide did on a week-long holiday almost 15 years ago - (perhaps along with Pete H?).

My assessment is that the likelihood of punching down into a hidden crevasse is generally higher while skiing down while skiing up -- therefore not so obvious it's worth the hassle of roping for the uphill if the party will then to ski down unroped anyway. Maybe some experienced professional guides agree with that.

For terrain and snowpack situations with kick-turns which might call for roping up skiing uphill, for any but proven-expert clients, a smart experienced guide will simply choose a different tour. The idea of a client getting tangled with the rope in a failed kick-turn / conversion is too scary.

Myself . . . It was observing the practices of _guided_ parties that made me start daring to think that it would be reasonable me to ski solo in crevassed terrain (both uphill and downhill) in favorable snowpack situations.

Ken

In reply to kenr:

No no, quite a bit more recent than that I'm afraid.

Perhaps you misunderstand, I have skied downhill whilst roped up twice; once on easy ground with thin, windblown bridges, and once on steep terrain with little risk of crevasses but around 20m visibility (plus once on the pistes while dressed as Santa and a reindeer, but I don't think we should count that). But I rope up for skinning uphill through suspect terrain a lot, even when steep enough to require kick turns. Certainly not as often as when on foot, as the increased footprint of a ski lowers the risk of a crevaccident, but definitely more often than I think you are implying is normal.
Obviously if the stable snow conditions for solo skinning are there, great, that's what you do. But roping up on skins is definitely a normal, common thing to do.

Here's a list of places on glaciers where I've seen the great majority of parties skiing uphill unroped:

* crossing the Argentiere Glacier to the Refuge d'Argentiere hut (and to various S-facing ski tours.

* SE side of Col du Passon

* crossing the Glacier du Tour from Col du Passon to Col Sup du Tour

* S side of Col du Chardonnet

* Glacier du Miliieu on Aiguille d'Argentiere

* (Les Trois Vallees) from Col Thorens to Col du Gebroulaz across Glacier Chaviere

* from Pointe Helbronner to Col d'Entreves

* Glacier Periades up to bottom of Breche Puisseux

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
places where I have seen a guided party rope up:

* up to Petit Flambeau or Pointe Helbronner after descending (unroped) from Aiguille du Midi.

In reply to kenr:

I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make with that list. Most of those are just plain motorways, and unless you are skinning up them at 3pm on a hot spring day, you are unlikely to be the unlucky sod in a string of 300 people to punch through. Crossing the Argie Glacier to the refuge is about as safe as you can possibly be on a glacier, I take my dog up there every now and then during the summer and autumn, when it's dry and the holes are visible.

I have skinned unroped whilst following the track on the Glacier du Tour, the Glacier du Chardonnet, the Millieu Glacier, the Periades Glacier, and around Punta Helbronner, similarly I have roped up for those same places when it is me and my partner putting the trail in after fresh snow, and I've also put the track in for all of those without roping up (either solo or in a team) in years with a particularly fat snowpack. I have also skinned along established tracks on some of your list, roped up, when we are still on the route slightly later than we'd hoped.

The fact that hundreds of guided groups don't rope up on incredibly busy routes where it is generally accepted that the risk of falling in a hole is negligible, doesn't mean that many ski touring parties don't rope up on the same kind of terrain that you would when wearing mountaineering boots. If I'm putting the track in somewhere after fresh snow and I haven't had recent first-hand visuals or reliable second-hand knowledge that it isn't really necessary, I'm often putting a rope on.

For the record, there is no glacier on the SE side of the Col du Passon (once you have crossed the Argie Glacier), it's a great big pile of scree. Some years you get a little pile of grey neve lurking there, but very rarely these days.

In reply to Pete Houghton:

Sounds like we're in basic agreement about going solo on glaciers:
There are more or less safe routes, more or less safe years, more or less safe days, more or less safe times during the day.

So if one wants to ski solo, need to know how to assess each of those, and it makes more sense to go out solo only when they're all lined up for "more safe".

But that's different from "most guided parties rope up most of the time on uphill".

Different from "I ought never to ski solo on a crevassed glacier".

Ken

P.S. I had dinner with someone who did in fact fall down into a substantial crevasse while crossing the Arg Glacier to the Refuge in April after a winter season with healthy snowpack. His partners arranged for a helicopter extrication.

In reply to kenr:

I'm not sure anyone ever said that...



Well yeah, of course there are holes there, it's a glacier, and just the same as if you stray from the generally accepted routes of travel on any other glacier, you increase your chances of falling in one. At a guess he either went over at the first crossing just downstream of a crevasse field on the right bank of the glacier, and then jumped in a hole where the path goes back onto the moraine; or he turned left too early upstream of that crevasse field instead of carrying on further up the glacier towards the weather station. Both seem like quicker options than the best, safest, and busiest route, and they definitely can be, provided you don't fall in.