UKC

Snowdonia Conditions - Trinity Face Conditions

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 Jay C 15 Dec 2017

Hi all,

Does anyone know if the gully lines on Trinity Face on Snowdon (Clogwyn y Garnedd) will be in condition tomorrow? I'm a bit uncertain with the tail end of this week's weather.

Thanks a lot!
Post edited at 17:02
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1philjones1 15 Dec 2017
In reply to Jay C:

There’s a post on Uk ground conditions Facebook page saying Trinity Face was climbed today- decent neve in gully but soft on approach. Doesn’t say which gully but looks like Central
 Pete_Frost 15 Dec 2017
In reply to 1philjones1: I met a climber today who had climbed Central Trinity yesterday. He said that there was a lot of graupel (snow, like polystyrene pellets) which often forms a persistent weak layer in the snow pack, and whilst there was some firm neve, the snow had insulated the underlying turf so it was not frozen. I had a nasty experience soloing Cave Gully in those conditions (it was marginally less dangerous to climb than to retreat) and wouldn't recommend it to a friend.
The BMC Cwm Idwal temperature sensors seem to be an accurate guide to ground conditions on the high, north facing crags. If that doesn't report a solid freeze at 5cm depth, then gullies are unlikely to be in condition in Cwm Idwal, Clogwyn Du and the Trinity Face.
Routes on Clogwyn Du today that didn't need frozen turf were ok, but dripping wet. To test the accuracy of the sensor I tried an experimental placement in a turf blob and it pulled right through - just as predicted. climbing on un-frozen turf will be dangerous, ruin the route and could result in a climbing ban by Natural Resources Wales for damaging a Site of Special Scientific Interest.
You can view the temperature sensor read-out here: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/idwal
 wynaptomos 15 Dec 2017
In reply to 1philjones1:
I would agree with that report. I did left hand trinity today and it was really enjoyable once above the approach slopes which were heavy and wet. It’s not very cold so you really need to go high(above 2500’) to find anything worthwhile.
In reply to Pete_Frost:

Those temperature readings are pretty cool! They could do something similar across the country which would stop this whole 'don't climb on un-frozen turf' discussion as if people were logging ascents on turf routes you could prove it wasn't frozen!
 mrphilipoldham 15 Dec 2017
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

It’s not that simple unfortunately, Turf can freeze differently in very small locales.. it’s just to be used as a rough guide rather than definitive.
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

True, I guess you have north vs south facing, temperature inversions etc. Damn, thought we had it cracked!
 Scott Anderson 16 Dec 2017
In reply to Pete_Frost:

Thanks for the Link to the ground temp Pete, not seen that before, very useful indeed!
 Pete_Frost 16 Dec 2017
In reply to mrphilipoldham: very true. However, if Clogwyn Du isn't frozen (north facing, nearly 900m) then it's a fair bet that anything in north Snowdonia lower down on any aspect with more sun won't be frozen either - in my experience of climbing here for over 20 years.
On the other hand, if the sensor suggests that everything at 850m is frozen hard, then it would be worthwhile looking at other winter crags to see if they are in nick too.

Natural Resources Wales funded the Cwm Idwal temperature sensors to help balance their legal duties to promote countryside recreation (climbing, in this case) and to protect the rare plants that grow on the crags. If climbers ignore the data and climb on turf when it isn't frozen then NRW have the power to prosecute individual climbers and ban climbing completely on these crags. If we use the temperature data then we save ourselves many wasted walk-ins, the rare plants grow undisturbed, and everyone wins.

 timjones 16 Dec 2017
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> Those temperature readings are pretty cool! They could do something similar across the country which would stop this whole 'don't climb on un-frozen turf' discussion as if people were logging ascents on turf routes you could prove it wasn't frozen!

It sounds like a brilliant way to rip the soul out of the pursuit good winter climbing conditions
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 mrphilipoldham 16 Dec 2017
In reply to Pete_Frost:

Indeed, however how does the gadget determine completely frozen? As far as I’m aware it’s never dipped below zero for the turf, despite routes obviously being well in!
 ianstevens 16 Dec 2017
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Whilst routes have been in since the sensor was installed (2015?), as far as I am aware the turf has never really been properly frozen since. Rocky mixed and gullies obviously need a different set of conditions not always requiring the turf to freeze.

Yes, there is hyper-local to regional scale factors and variation in whether the turf is frozen or not, but I think we need a 2010/2013 style winter before we can fully evaluate the temperature sensors. A recent example - I was out Monday and Tuesday - air temps were cold and only some turf was frozen, but this was the minority rather than the majority. The 5cm, 850m sensor was suggesting a turf temp of between 0.2 - 0.35 *C on these days, which “felt” about right, with turf generally unfrozen and hyper local conditions resulting in some frozen patches.
In reply to timjones:

Yes much better to damage all the turf and then have to endure long annual threads about how the turf is being damaged.
 climbwhenready 16 Dec 2017
In reply to Pete_Frost:

Without disagreeing with anything you've said about good climbing ethics - I think you're absolutely right - could you point me towards the legal framework NRW would be able to use to blanket ban climbing?
 Gustavo 16 Dec 2017
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

It seems to me that there's a lot of people who can't wait to use their ice axes whether the conditions are good or not.
How often do you see posts on here after it's snowed overnight asking if central trinity ot whatever is in condition?
 Pete_Frost 19 Dec 2017
In reply to climbwhenready:

Don't quote me on this because I'm no expert, but I believe that damage to wild plants will be prosecuted under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended). The mechanism for preventing damage to the Site of Special Scientific Interest under the same act would probably be for NRW to notify the landowner that by allowing climbing they were permitting damage to the site, and to threaten them with prosecution unless they took steps to ban climbing. I'm sure if you contacted Elfyn Jones the BMC Wales officer, he would give you much more accurate information.

Whatever the legal mechanism, the last thing I want as a local climber is to imperil access to some outstanding, rarely-formed winter routes by climbing on them when conditions are marginal. So if the temperature sensor shows a decent freeze then I'm going to go for it. If not, I'll go dry-tooling instead.

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