UKC

The things that used to worry me about post Brexit Britain, were the usual things - the uncertain economy, the decline in currency, decreasing foreign companies wanting to invest in Britain and not being able to afford climbing trips to Europe, until an experience I had a few days ago (I included that below). I still worry about all of the things listed but now I'm a little more fearful.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Today I was verbally mocked and assaulted for being ‘different’ by four youths.

I arrived in the UK at 6 years of age, a new world, a new home.

I started school, I learnt English, fascinating new words were acquired everyday. I soaked them in, I wanted to learn more, to communicate better, to belong.

The memories of past comments about my race, being told to ‘go back to where you came from’ had faded.

After 30 years, the memories came back in full when I heard the mocking tones shouted in my direction, as well as a slap to the back of my head as they rode past on their bikes.

What can I attribute this to? Donald Trump? Brexit? did I become too complacent? too busy immersed in tapping, swiping and scrolling to see a shift? Or can I make the excuse they were just teenage boys with nothing to do.

A multitude of questions now inhabit my mind, but all I can see is my 8 year old self, the one that started to grasp English and what words meant. We look at each other, both of us a little sadder.

(Please note that this has been reported to the Police)

In reply to Elle Bells:

The rift it seems to have opened up in British society worries and saddens me too.

The country no longer seems to be the place I (maybe misguidedly) thought it was. Maybe the hatred was always there, but suppressed. Now it seems to be out in the open.

In reply to captain paranoia:



The fact that the hatred was suppressed was part of the British Values we were all supposed to be so proud of. As the son of an East European refugee on one side and third generation Irish on the other I grew up with a dull ache to belong which diminished with the years, as Britain became more inclusive.
I felt proud to be British but all that changed on the 22nd June last year when I was called a traitor for distributing Remain leaflets. It made my blood run cold.
Now we have the extreme right wing press using the same language against Tory MPs. Brexiteers who crow about getting over it seem to be exulting in the return of 1950s manners and values.
I expect there is going to be a feeling of decline in this country until the majority realise what we are becoming, wake up and claim the country back.

In reply to Elle Bells:

We live in rural Cumbria. Our boys have been called nazis on the school bus because they have a German mother. There is a nasty thread of xenophobia and racism that still pervades "cosy" communities where it is easy to pick on the outsider.

I had someone I called a friend look at someone with a dark skin on a Penrith street a few years ago. He boiled up inside and growled through clenched teeth something along the lines of "He should effing get back to where he belongs!"

I was pretty upset by this but it had all the hallmarks of someone completely blinkered and set in concrete mentally and he is now someone I will speak to politely but reservedly if I see him but that is now not often.

I grew up in the sixties when there was a lot of adult attitude towards immigrants but at school we grew up with pretty liberal attitudes and I had friends of various ethnicities, yes, even in the dark North of England.

The only thing is perhaps to realize that the nasties are in the minority and most people are pretty nice. We have to make sure the nasties don't get away with it.

In reply to Elle Bells:

Dear Caprid,

I'm sorry for your unpleasant and unsettling experience - which, by the way, you expressed in beautiful english. I am proud that you were able to come to live in this country, that you were motivated to learn the language so well, and that you had been able to feel assimilated. And I am ashamed that you no longer feel so assured of your place here. You probably could just make the excuse that they were teenage boys, and that they might well have found a different reason to pick on a different person who happened to have been in the same place and time.

But that still leaves us with a problem. I think it is harder for any society to accept outsiders when that society itself feels unstable. First the global economic crisis, and now the Brexit crisis have left us all feeling a little scared. People respond to fear by closing ranks, and the ranks that some people align with are white British. But that's just some people. I happen to be white and British too, and I am a little afraid for the future, but I consider someone who writes what you wrote above to be on my side, and if I am forced to close ranks they will be to include you, not exclude you.

But we also need to find a way of including the lads who assaulted you. They have their own difficulty in finding a place: that is why they behaved so badly. Because our greatest challenge as a society may come when these lads, and their older brothers, who believed that Brexit would be the solution to their problems find that it isn't any sort of solution for their particular problems at all.

In reply to Elle Bells: Post Brexit Britain will be a poorer place but I think Brexit is a symptom rather than the cause

In reply to Wicamoi:

A friend of mine, before he moved to Asia, was saying something similar, that the discontentment that some feel wouldn't be solved by Brexit. With a guy I know in his mid to late 40's in mind, who felt disenfranchised and not in secure employment who voted for Brexit, it's hard to see how his prospects will improve, given his lack of IT skills and education which is applicable to looking for work. He's the opposite of a racist or xenophobe, but for people who have that in them, it does worry me to think where any discontentment might be channeled.

In reply to Elle Bells:

The majority of people are on your side, Caprid, and simply want the UK to be a peaceful and harmonious place.

In reply to Elle Bells:

wercat is exactly right.

"the nasties are in the minority and most people are pretty nice"
"I grew up in the sixties when there was a lot of adult attitude towards immigrants"

I also agree with Wicamoi.

"You probably could just make the excuse that they were teenage boys, and that they might well have found a different reason to pick on a different person who happened to have been in the same place and time. "

Most of us have been picked on verbally and physically many, many times, and shrug it off as just idiots.
Obviously the more you stand out, the more it happens, and the more sensitive you feel about it, the worse it is.
I only stood out as the public schoolboy in a rough area. Which is not so bad. But I still got punched by skinheads and chased by numerous louts quite often. Supporting the wrong football team would be a similar excuse. The same as those shouting abuse at runners from passing cars.

I don't think things are getting worse. Nor is leaving the EU going to change anything.

In reply to Timmd:

How the hell did you get a dislike for that!

In reply to Oceanrower:

This phantom disliker of everything is becoming a complete bore!

In reply to Elle Bells:

Post-Brexit Britain will be fine. It will still be a rich and prosperous country by international standards. Just relatively poorer and less influential than its neighbours.

In reply to Elle Bells:

I feel quite worried as well, though I am white and British my wife and step daughter are both Japanese.

After the Brexit vote my daughter got abused by some men standing outside a pub saying "Didn't we vote to get rid of you" and when she went to a small village in Hampshire she got the same from an elderly couple as she left the train station.

I know it is a minority but some times I feel that there is an under current of racism that's been suppressed for a long time. A few people down my allotment seem to have really problems with the idea of Polish people for some reason, blaming them for all sorts of stuff, I am sure that 30 years ago they would have been saying the same about Indians and other immigrants.

In reply to jasonC abroad:



Agree. It just feel like people have been brainwashed.
This is less of a problem in the big cities, but as soon as you go to a smaller working class town you will almost systematically get thinly veiled racist remarks and rants, mostly from older folks, about “immigrant taking our jobs and benefits” as soon as people detect a faint European accent in your speech. Always with the usual “but not you mate, you it’s fine”, which I think is even more hypocritical.

I know this sounds somewhat cliche but unfortunately personal experience proved it to be true.

I had to cope with this colleague at work who told me to my face many times she voted brexit because of “immigrants coming to this country and diluting our ethnicity and destroying our culture”. She didn’t even realise how offensive this was to me, simply because the immigrants she doesn’t like are never the one she knows, they are the ones she reads about everyday in the tabloid press.

The whole thing was pissing me off especially given that she was an Englishwoman, who, after living 5 years in Scotland had absolutely no clue about Scottish culture, history and geography, and zero Scottish friends. Which BTW doesn’t bother me at all, but it’s pretty hypocritical to then criticise foreigners for not integrating when she was evidently less integrated in Scottish society than most of the foreigners.

And when one of our Indian colleague, a brilliant engineer, was kicked out of the country after 6 years, because of incredibly stupid immigration policies aimed at reducing the numbers not matter the cost, she was in tears and didn’t understand why we were kicking out this very nice, hard working, competent colleague. She was completely oblivious to the fact that this is the direct consequence of the politics of the people she votes for.

I don’t think this is racism, really, i don’t know many racists, it’s more fear, ignorance, and beliefs.

In reply to Elle Bells:

Ah yes, because racism and ignorance are surely brand-new post-brexit phenomena. Hmm...

In reply to Kristof252:


Of course they aren't but they have been given an acceptability and even respectability because of brexit. Politicians who are racist, or at least sympathetic to racists, have influence. Ignorance and xenophobia currently have power. The country is becoming more inward looking and insular. Which is what the OP was about, I think.

In reply to MG:


Of course they don't.

In reply to David Riley:

You don't regard UKIP and Farage as a racist sympathisers? How blind can you be.

In reply to Elle Bells:

It is a sad and worrying fact that a combination of a dishonest referendum campaign, the echo chamber of the Twittersphere, the vileness of the gutter press (partly owned by tax exiles) accusing people of treason and judges of being enemies of the people has given people who know nothing but consider themselves patriotic Englishmen permission to behave in the most appalling manner reminiscent of fascists in Germany in the 1930s. If I were a politician showing any signs of having reservations about Brexit I would be wondering if tomorrow I might be going to be the next Jo Cox.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

The real traitors are the demagogues whp have hijacked the nation off course in the last few years and their agents who persist in pushing through this mistake despite it being against our national interest

In reply to RomTheBear:


and perhaps meaner

In reply to Rog Wilko:

The next Jo Cox? What an utter drama queen you are. And regarding the press, every single publication (the Daily Mail included) were invariably anti-brexit.

Sorry, but the majority of people still voted for leave and that's how it shall be whether you like it or not, Remoaner

In reply to MG:


I guess it depends how he regards his German wife.

In reply to wercat:

and perhaps yet more uneven

In reply to summo:

Not really, his (now ex) wife is white like he is.

In reply to David Riley:

Why 'of course'? Don't you think they might influence people who might have a degree of racism within them by validating their point of view (in their eyes)?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27459923

Nigel Farage (who said he wouldn't live next door to Romanians) has been very influential.

I find the definite tone of your post slightly hard to figure out...

In reply to Timmd:


"Of course they don't."
Just disagreeing and echoing his "Of course they aren't".

In reply to Kristof252:


The Daily Heil was pro brexit, they had a front page telling their "readers" to vote leave.
So either you're deliberately lying, or you're a gullible tw*t

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Or C: All of the above

In reply to summo:

Since she left him, I guess not very highly.

In reply to MG:


News to me. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

In reply to Kristof252:

Really???

In reply to Elle Bells:

It'll be a bit like this....

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Dulle_Griet%2C_by...

In reply to Kristof252:


Shit, back in the shadow universe. I really must remember not to use the transporters in an ion storm.

In reply to Kristof252:


What? In no way was every single publication anti Brexit. Least of all the Daily Mail.

In reply to Kristof252:


Which parallel universe were you living in?

In reply to Kristof252:

I note your but why would you call someone who expresses a view you do not agree with a moaner? Post referendum are we not allowed to express opinions?

In reply to Elle Bells:

Post - Brexit Britain will become a Daily Mail theme park and be renamed Dacre's

In reply to Bulls Crack:


'Gullibles Kingdom' perhaps?

In reply to MG:

Re Nigel Farage being a "powerful" "racist" "politician"

The question I ask myself is how did a man who could not become an MP, even in Thanet, be so influential and be allowed to set the zeitgeist.. and the only conclusion I can come to is he was saying something that must have resonated with an awful lot of the population? Otherwise he would have been a total no mark who would have quickly disappeared into obscurity. But he didn't. I can understand why a lot of people dislike him, but I think there must be big issues for him to be as successful as he has been in setting his agenda. I see him as a symptom rather than a cause.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I think you're right, and the more serious cause is that of successive governments using the EU as a scapegoat for domestic policy failings. Blaming EU migration regulations for a rise in foreign nationals in the UK is an obvious example, when UK governments have repeatedly failed to stick even to their own non-EU immigration targets, so clearly haven't been intent on seriously cutting immigration. And then blaming poor public service provision on migrants, when the same migrants are bringing net value to the UK economy, but not enough of this value is being used to better support the communities where these migrants are coming to. These aren't the faults of EU membership.

In reply to Kristof252:


Many of our politicians live with regular death threats, not easy to deal with I'm sure even before a colleague is actually killed by a knuckle dragging nazi apparently empowered and inspired by the tide of brexit nativism which swept Britain. Thankfully political violence is still 'dramatic' in Britain, long may it remain so.


The press were anti-brexit? Please do explain.
jk

In reply to jkarran:
I'm not sure I trust the judgement of the current generation of British politicians responsible for this mess. For all of his faults Ted Heath took us into Europe on the back of experiencing the Second World War - I believe he said he never personally killed anyone but did witness the devastation his artillery unit caused as they passed through Europe in 1944-5. Others like Dennis Healey, whom I hated for his rather hard line politics can be respected for their wish to avoid what they had experienced than and you never heard them want us to take back control at the expense of our regional associations. We shall be meaner.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

UP to a point I agree. However Farage does has something about him personally - other leaders of UKIP, before and since, have failed.

In reply to Elle Bells:
I'm sorry about what happened to you. I wish there was something I could do.

I also wish there were some good news about the post-brexit future. This country is going to be a poorer, meaner, more precarious place. This won't all be caused by brexit, but brexit is both a symptom of economic and social problems that were occurring anyway, and an amplifier of those problems. A few people are going to do well from it, many are going to find their lives massively diminished. And when the reality starts to hit people, I think it will get very bad indeed.

Sorry. I'm generally fairly positive about things, but I think we're in a pit and and we no longer have the means to get out.

In reply to wercat:
There is a school of thought that one explanation for brexit is that the last generation* that had any personal experience of the effects of inter-state conflict is now either gone or at the end of their life. I partly agree with this, although there will be other contributing factors too.

* among the general population, not just politicians

In reply to MG:


What is that something? Charisma?

In reply to MG:

You're right about him having something. He has everything you need to be a successful demagogue : bonhomie, a slick tongue, no scruples and hatred running through him like Blackpool through a stick of rock. Nuttall had a scouse accent and he was a very bad liar. The woman who lasted a fortnight had some scruples.
Plausibility has led us to the brink of an abyss.

In reply to Andy Johnson:

Good post. I'd like to make the following observations.


I feel the same. This is something that needs to be nipped in the bud.


Agree completely. The social problems, the lack of hope and the simmering resentment of both immigrants and those who are doing well in life were here before brexit had even been heard of.
This country has been heading down this road for years, and blaming brexit for it makes as much sense as blaming the EU for everything wrong in the country. Once outside the EU at least the government can't use 'it's all down to the EU' excuse any more.


A few people will do spectacularly well out of it; a larger number will be worse off, (both affluent people who directly benefitted from the EU and the poorest in society); for the bulk of people things will get a bit tougher - but things have been getting steadily tougher for the past 10 years anyway.

I have a nagging suspicion that things will get very bad indeed on a global scale, and being in the EU won't necessarily help much.


I think everyone is going to be in a pit, but at least it's a pit of our own making. Maybe it's time this country took a long hard look at itself and dealt with the problems that have been building for years. That might be the one positive of brexit.

In reply to Ridge:

>Once outside the EU at least the government can't use 'it's all down to the EU' excuse any more.

Don't be so sure, as many of the options will require the UK to keep to some EU standards/regulations etc; And even if the UK goes for the no agreement option, I'm sure there will be some saying the EU forced us as they wouldn't agree to an eating & keeping the cake alternative.

In reply to Kristof252:


Is this ignorance or deceit on your part? Daily Mail - Pro-Brexit, Daily Express - Pro-Brexit, Daily Telegraph - Pro-Brexit, Sun - Pro-Brexit, Daily Star - Pro-Brexit.

It’s easy to check.

In reply to Kristof252:

Are you trying to prove to us that you don't read any newspapers, or are hopelessly badly informed?

In reply to The New NickB:

Thanks for that. I was going to list them but thought it wasn't worth the effort as the target readership will no doubt ignore such inconvenient truths.

In reply to MG:


The above had 5 dislikes when I read it. I presume these are from Brexit supporters who haven't understood that, however respectable their own reasons for voting Leave, MG is absolutely right. The referendum vote has given respectability to some pretty unpalatable views. It's not that Brexit has created the xenophobia. That, I fear, was always there. But it has given xenophobic people the excuse to "come out".

Martin

In reply to Ridge:

I hope you're right, but I very much doubt it. The people in the driving seat didn't go to all this trouble just to start a period of national soul-searching. They did it to re-make our society and economy according to their requirements. And as for that society: when confronted with the consequences of their folly, nations and social groups pretty much never say "hey, we were wrong, lets sort this out together". What they invariably do is close ranks and blame the scapegoats. So as things play-out, I think we'll see increasing intolerance (for "others", the poor, disabled, etc.) and a set of narratives that blames saboteurs for ruining the shining potential of brexit and blames the EU for punishing us. Economic decline and social decline feeding on each other. More hate.

I've spent the last year trying so hard to be optimistic about brexit, but now I'm just done with the self-deception. And I'm done with trying to change the minds of people who brought this on us. It isn't going to end well and this country will be a very different and poorer place in twenty years. I don't know what to do about that.

In reply to Martin Hore:

It takes generations to change public opinion to such a degree that old attitudes become real exceptions. We've made great progress in a lot of ways during my adulthood, including hugely reducing things like wolf-whistling, child-smacking and drunk-driving, and even though the majority stance has shifted enormously there is little doubt that plenty of people quietly still don't see such things as a real problem. Racism is in the same category, largely driven from view and no longer socially acceptable but still prevalent under the surface. Sadly Brexit seems to have emboldened some of those still holding overtly racist views in feeling that it's ok again to express them.

In reply to Elle Bells:

Due to the predictions here on UKC only plague and famine in the medium term. Or sort of Mad Max world in a better case

In reply to pavelk:
I’m expecting something Orwellian:

"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen."

In reply to Elle Bells:

When I was in my teens I was verbally mocked and physically assaulted because I spoke with a Scottish accent in a Yorkshire school.

It's nothing to do with Trump nor Brexit but it has a lot to do with human nature and tribal instincts.

Al

In reply to pavelk:


On it https://www.standard.co.uk/help-a-hungry-child/like-victorian-london-child-...


done https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_upon_Hull

In reply to GridNorth:


Yup, bang on: it's anthropological. But T and B are a direct result of a reversion to those tribal instincts, I believe. Directly opposed to the drive towards civilisation.

In reply to GridNorth:
in Durham in the 1960s walking back home from school (9 or 10) I was asked by some bigger lads whether I was a Catholic. No idea why but they then said, "you look like one anyway so have this one for good measure" and thumped me. Very tribal. Golding got it exactly right in "Lord of the Flies" - I'm sure that some of the kids I knew at school would have tortured others physically if they had the opportunity to go beyond mental torture

In reply to Mr Lopez:

(Have a dislike from me for the lazy Hull/distopia reference.)

In reply to Elle Bells:
It will be hot and dry from May to the end of September, snow will fall on Christmas Eve and remain until the schools go back in the New Year.
We will win the next world cup and our cricket team will travel the empire beating the foreigners who will show their gratitude by sending ships full of cheap produce and raw materials.
Jobs will be there for the asking in our thriving shipbuilding, aircraft and car construction
Cars will all have leather seats and smell like Morris Minors, we will be able to drive them out to the lovely countryside as fuel will be 40p a "gallon". Picnicking in well tended fields while being cheerfully waved at by genial farmers.
The sad part is so many of the people that voted for it will be dead by then and won't be around to see the rose tinted glory of it.
For further information go on line and buy some old Ladybird books it's all in there

In reply to overdrawnboy:

Brilliant!

In reply to overdrawnboy:


Fail. You used the word 'remain'. That word will no longer be tolerated.

In reply to Andy Johnson:


Lazy? Do you know how long i spent looking for Hull on wikipedia before i worked out it's not even called Hull? Call it what you want, but lazy it ain't

In reply to Elle Bells:

I got home this evening to find a leaflet from EFDD/UKIP on the doormat.

"BREXIT UNDER THREAT"

"The South East voted to leave the EU. Here's how your voice is being betrayed"

Funnily enough, this is in Reading, which voted remain with a significant margin. So yes, my vote is being betrayed...

Apparently, Farridge is working hard in the European Parliament.

I thought the f*cker had pissed off with a fat pension.

In reply to overdrawnboy:

and will those Creme Eggs, HP Sauce and Chocolate Orange once more be made in this green and pleasant land?

In reply to captain paranoia:


No such luck. Busy moaning to the media about what a hard life he's having, what with all that hard work (one of the worst attendance records in the EU Parliament) and only 100 000 Euros or so to live on, and that tiny pension to look forward to.

Incidentally, I'd missed this - apparently he'll get a nice little 'transition payment' when we leave the EU - "Nigel Farage, the former UKIP leader who remains a group leader in the European Parliament, is set to receive around €169,000 (£150,000). Daniel Hannan, the Conservative MEP, will receive the same sum."

( https://news.sky.com/story/british-meps-in-line-for-6m-golden-goodbye-when-... )

He's having a hard time is poor Nigel...

In reply to Bob Kemp:
hard time,
not for a traitor.

bring back peine, fort et dure

In reply to wercat:




That's a bit harsh, even for Nigel. I felt the wishes I saw on a Twitter thread about his dreadful conditions were more appropriate - 'I hope his boiler breaks down and he has to get a Polish plumber to fix it'.

In reply to GridNorth:


Tribal instincts which are divisive should have no place in a modern society where we produce enough of everything to make life better for everyone,there should be no place for tribalism in a world which has enough.
It should be a priority to stamp out forms of tribalism/racism etc as they lead to verbal abuse,intimidation,bullying,suicide,assualts,living in fear,murder and as history has shown genocides and wars.

If you encourage division and hate by spreading cultural histories that glorify division and hate then you may cover it up during good times but it never goes away and will resurface when times are tougher.
With an economic system that creates varying degrees of cyclical good times then bad times then perhaps it this that should be changed so there are no bad times just a steady economy.
Simultaneously tribalism,racism,chauvinism and xenophobia must be stamped out using education.

When you have British educators,media and so on glorying in the history of the British empire when it should be a thing of utter shame on the same level as German fascism then you foster a confused belief in children and teenagers that it was ok to be racist, rob, steal,commit genocide and be at war continuously.You perpetuate the myth that the British empire was good and strengthen this belief in British people.This needs to be faced and dealt with without all the lies and hiding of the truth before your average British person sees this as not being "Great", but being horiffic.

Us and them, we are better,we showed them,took everything,never never shall be slaves.

This is what is coming out of the shadows and until we change our mindset about our history then it will always be there.

Just anecdotally i have worked in many British firms where it was considered very abnormal not to be openly racist and xenophobic.

As much as it is human nature is to take care of yourself and your family it is also human nature to take care of others and to help,share and welcome.

You want the cure for xenophobia and racism then get rid of capitalism.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

Eloquent post. But I disagree with most of it.

I think people who are interested in history far overstate the influence of our understanding of history on how we live. Similarly, people whose primary interest is in the arts tend to believe that the arts are responsible for how our society is shaped.

Personally I think society is shaped by human nature and the path that had been forged through history: it is history itself that shapes the present rather than our understanding of it.

As for capitalism, full of incentives for bad behaviour it most certainly is. But it's effective in motivating lots of useful behaviour too and as such we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Especially when the alternatives have failed so spectacularly.

In reply to 8A machine elf:


Let's compare and contrast.

On one side, hideous, racist and xenophobic old Blighty, shackled as it is by hundreds of years of both capitalism and Imperialism. On the other side the open armed and multi-cultural paradise that is North Korea. ( I can't argue that they haven't cured themselves of the curse of "cyclical good and bad times" though).

In reply to Stichtplate: It's hard to compete with a quality piece of debate like that.

In reply to wbo:

You could at least try occasionally .

Edit: rather than quality debate, I was aiming more for mildly humorous. Not surprised you missed that,

In reply to Elle Bells:

It's miserable now.

Can't imagine it improving.

In reply to bouldery bits:



"Why then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Hamlet, who thought Denmark a "prison"

In reply to 8A machine elf:


Where did you go to school? I was being taught about the evils of the British Empire 40 years ago.

I don't expect modern Germans to go around apologising for the Nazis, or Belgians to be flagellating themselves about the antics of Leopold in the Congo.

This country would be in a lot better state if we got over both the self indulgent middle class post-colonial guilt trip and the working class Ingerlund flag waving and dragged itself into the 21st century rather than dwelling on the 19th.

In reply to Ridge:

Interesting that. I was taught that the British empire was marvellous and the best thing since sliced bread when I was growing up. Heck I even have one of my old school books "Our Empire Story told in Pictures" which is a thrilling piece of propaganda. That was in the 60's so I wonder when it all changed?

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

It was barely mentioned when I was at school in the 80s. It's odd the obsession the far left have with it, I doubt it enters the consciousness of many under 30 much other than as a historical curiosity.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:
In the early 80s when I was at a state comprehensive the NUT were very left wing, which may have had an influence.

As MG said, I'm surprised at the obsession with events that are beyond living memory. WW2 ended over 70 years ago and the evil empire pretty much ended with it.

There was some nostalgic jingoism in the 50's for the coronation and the ascent of Everest, some unfortunate outbursts of 2 world wars and 1 world cupism since 1966 and compulsory street parties in 1977.

Unfortunately we still have a minority of racists, idiots and extremely wealthy people who manipulate the economy to suit their own ends. Just like every other nation in the world.

However I seem to have missed the constant fascist propaganda being pumped out on the BBC and in every classroom, and I somehow manage to walk the streets without being massacred by the Manchester and Salford Yeomanry.

Perhaps I'm not trying hard enough to see it?

In reply to Duncan Bourne:


I think our attitude, and particularly that of the younger generation, changed rather abruptly around the 'revolutionary' year of 1968. The seventies had a completely different atmosphere, in which everything seemed to be collapsing and in which we were entering new and uncharted waters ... to put it very generally and metaphorically. (Then everything slammed into reverse and turned very nasty at the end of the seventies - but that's a different story). Just a thought.

In reply to Ridge:


Maybe you're looking in the wrong place? It seems empire nostalgia and the legacy of racism that attached to some parts of Britain's imperial activities has a large place in the thinking of some Brexit supporters. It doesn't have to manifest itself in such obvious ways as you mention.

You might find this article interesting - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/31/brexit-and-bri...

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Goodness your version of the 70s was very different to mine. I remember them as irredeemably shit. Apart from punk and the numinous David Bowie of course

In reply to BnB:

Er ... I said everything seemed to be collapsing ... Suggest you read what I said again.

In reply to Bob Kemp:

I think you've got a good point there. There might well be an element of nostalgia (for a golden age that never existed) at play in the pro Brexit vote. However that's not the same as the 'constant Imperialist propaganda' scenario given in an earlier post.


Some reasonable points, but it's disingenuous in effectively claiming Britain is a net recipient from the EU. I also detect a hint of an agenda on the author's part.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

You then said it reversed in the eighties, which you normally say were terrible!

In reply to MG:


I can’t speak for Gordon but I suspect that he may have meant that after the sense of collapse and ‘uncharted waters’ of the ‘70s, a period of stagnation to many people, things then went backwards in terms of employment, distribution of wealth and so on.

In reply to Bob Kemp:


Exactly that. I wrote that earlier post rather fast. What I meant was that (to me) the sixties was a very exciting progressive world, in which so much changed, socially and economically, for the better. It seemed to reach a kind of climax around 1968 ... then the sense of hope seemed to collapse: the underlying 'revolution' that started in the 60s started to be worked out in the 70s, and it was mostly very grim, with huge social unrest and upheaval (strikes, 3-day weeks, etc). It was a very bad period, but we were still struggling to progress. Then, just when you thought things couldn't possibly get worse, the absolute disaster of Thatcherism smashed down on us, destroying whole communities and leading to virtual civil war. Any sense of real progress was reversed, most of our serious manufacturing industry was shut down for ever, and a ghastly new set of extremely materialistic and selfish values swamped everything. Since then, we've been struggling to recover. We made steady slow progress under Major and Blair (at home - forget his foreign debacle for the moment) and even, under Cameron (though he'd conned the electorate into thinking he was a lot more moderate than he actually was). And, my god, how we were conned ... !

This is not a serious political analysis, only how seems to me now looking back on it. In very broad, rather crude brush strokes.

In reply to Ridge:
The “constant imperialist propaganda” is a bit of exaggeration, but it seems to me that the legacy of the Empire and the ways that it’s interpreted (positive and negative) run through British thinking about politics like the letters through a stick of rock. As in bringing back Britannia and blue passports at a superficial level, but also in thinking about the nuclear deterrent and Britain’s place at the ‘top table’.

In reply to Bob Kemp:

Funny I should mention blue passports...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/bri...

Brexit bonus! Glorious symbol of our new limitations on freedom of movement in Europe!

In reply to Bob Kemp:

but will HP Sauce be repatriated with a blue passport?

In reply to wercat:


Won't they have to change its name back from Louise Weiss sauce first?

In reply to Bob Kemp:

Damn it to hell and back, I just renewed mine last year, now I'm stuck with a tacky maroon one for the next eight years.
I heard Nige banging on about it on the radio earlier, it's just a frigging passport FFS, who cares what colour it is.
But I suppose the symbolism of it is way over my head

In reply to Lusk:




Looks like the symbolism of it is way over the Brexiters' heads too - seems the reason we had blue passports in the first place was because they were imposed from abroad - the League of Nations insisted on them:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/22/blue-passports-taking...

In reply to Kristof252:

Are you on glue?

In reply to Elle Bells:

Being teenage isn't an excuse for anything.

Most teenagers are lovely (under the moodiness) and would be horrified at the way you were treated.

Brexit does seem to have made people stop hiding their unpleasant attitudes.

In reply to David Riley:

White man tells minority people things aren't getting worse.

I'm sure this is deja vu but can you not see that you are not in much of a position to comment?

In reply to marsbar:

Silly comment.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

When I was at school in the 80s the history curriculum included what caused ww1 and ww2 and the Cuban missile crisis. Also I remember something about what happens if he government print too much money (I can't remember the details but I think it may have been Germany and people with wheelbarrows of money? I'm sure there are people here who will know).

We looked at how Hitler became powerful and how he used propaganda to "other" the Jews and blame them.

It was very much about cause and evidence and propoganda.

In reply to David Riley:

If you say so.

Last time you told me women weren't suffering harassment if I recall. Now racism isn't getting worse. You don't experience either, but you know best dear.

What would I know, I'm just a silly woman with a brown husband and step child.

In reply to marsbar:

So white woman can have an opinion. But white man cannot ?

In reply to David Riley: silly comment

In reply to David Riley:

You are being over literal perhaps.

Some white men know what is going on. Polish men for example would be qualified to comment as to whether racist comments have increased decreased or stayed the same. Jason C is another example of a white man who knows what the facts are. He has his wife's experience to go by.

Your opinion is that the facts are wrong. It appears correct to you because you don't experience what an Eastern European man (for example) experiences.

Your experience of sexual harassment is equally invalid. You aren't a woman so you don't experience being grabbed on public transport. It's not something you would see as perpetrators tend to act when there aren't witnesses watching.

You can of course have as many opinions as you wish. I won't deny you your opinion, but opinions aren't automatically correct. Have your opinion but it won't change the facts. You are in a position where you don't have to deal with things like this so to you it doesn't exist.

In reply to marsbar:

You can certainly report your own experience, but that’s n=1. Not ‘the facts’.

White men are often in positions in which they can gauge the changing views of other white men.

In reply to marsbar:


You claim to be qualified to have an opinion because you have a brown husband and stepchild (I assume that this was why you mentioned them). Why is man not equally qualified by having a female partner, daughters and friends,or, in the case of racism, a brown partner?

In reply to Big Ger:

That seems about right. Maybe this too https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hieronymus+bosch&client=tablet-androi...

In reply to Postmanpat:

Wow.

In reply to aln:


Wow

In reply to Postmanpat:

I don’t know if the man in question is married or has a daughter. However I do know many girls and women don’t tell their dad or husband if they get groped etc because they know it will cause a massive upset, and they’ll worry about being blamed, or they don’t want to be mithered and face concern every time they leave the house. It’s talked about amongst women and not in mixed groups. Things have started to change with Weinstein this year, hence the conversation, but some people still don’t believe what isn’t in their experience. On the other hand myself and Jason C and others in our position probably do see what is going on with racism far more.

Anyway, this is getting off the point again.

Racism has increased since Brexit, there are numerous ways to measure this. Telling the OP that it’s all fine and not the case is rude and ignorant.

In reply to marsbar:

Racism has increased since Brexit, there are numerous ways to measure this. Telling the OP that it’s all fine and not the case is rude and ignorant.

Over the last couple of years incidents of hate crime have risen dramatically all across Europe.

In the case of Brexit and a rise in xenophobic attitudes there’s a danger of mistaking cause with effect.

In reply to marsbar:

Presumably brown or yellow women don't tell their white male partners of racist experiences either whereas brown or yellow men do?

Apart from the "natural increase" which the police acknowledge is a function of their efforts to encourage reporting, what is your hard evidence of this increase in racism (presumably you mean "racist incidents" rather than "racism") since brexit ? (which, for the sake of clarity we'll rename "the referendum result" so that the clowns from the other thread don't start splitting hairs over it) ?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Very odd that you should describe the distinction between the referendum result (the intention to leave Europe, while still being in it and benefiting from it) and Brexit (no longer being in Europe) as 'splitting hairs'.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It’s splitting hairs when the distinction is made just for the sake of scoring points as it was in the other thread )but not on this one). In both cases, the intent and meaning of the posts was clear from the context and the tense, although both posters referred, mistakenly, to the referendum outcome as “brexit”.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

That’s on awful lot of stamping out. And who will decide who is to be stamped out? You seem very clear who they are. So no need for innocent until proven guilty. Happy stamping.

In reply to john yates:
In order to create a better society the glorification of old times when we and many other countries behaved as bad as the German fascists did should be stopped, the same follows for the suppressing of unwelcome national truths .British people and people from other countries with similar histories and that is practically every country must face this no matter how painful and not celebrate or hide it or else it will continue to sow more division and hate.

Education is the answer but it must be the education of truth and not what you think is best for the national interest or national pride, Britain has a million things to pride itself on that have benefitted mankind and our knowledge of the world that you dont need me to mention, but equally the truth of our crimes must be shown and accepted as well as our lies about other countries for there to be any true peace and reconcilliation.
This act could start the ball rolling with other countries admitting their crimes openly and facing what they did.

Of course it is just pie in the sky as the capitalist class in each country want to continue in their privileged positions and will do absolutely anything from world wars,continuous wars and genocides to prevent a world where people are united together, they have proven this time and again. That is why they always support the most brutal right wing ideologies and religions to suppress and confuse the masses whilst they continue to rob and exploit them.Blaming the immigrants,refugees, the poor anyone at all as long as it deflects attention away from those who are to blame.
For the capitalist classes to admit they lie continuously about socialism in the USSR and elsewhere and thier part in attacking socialism since 1917 using everything from fascists to muslim throat cutters and mafians would be to admit they are and were the bad guys
You could say fear is the main factor in not admitting terrible histories as the victim countries or peoples would now know the truth and that in itself could lead to revenge attacks or god forbid - compensation cliams.

I wonder if that happened the UK would be bankrupt as would the USA and EU to most of the developing world and indigenous peoples. Maybe fear that they would then do to us what we did to them.But the greatest fear of the capitalist class is socialism hence all the lies about it and they know full well that if people of the world got united then it would be through socialism.

The trouble is the capitalists have done such a sterling job of murdering 10s of millions of good communists/Marxists all over the world since 1917 and telling so many lies about socialism in the USSR, etc that they even believe their own lies and quote them as proof, hilarious, but as history has shown this capitalist chaos will only lead one way and that is to ever more and more division among nations and peoples.
With ever more wars until competing capitalist blocs or empires have larger regional or world wars as the dominant capitalist empire collapses ( As all empires must) and another takes its place, like WW1 where the British empire was on the wain and the German one was on the acendancy, so they both heavily militarized to compete in the inevitable coming war of the capitalist empires, because capitalism is war and if you stamp out the truth then you are a destined to continue making the same mistakes.
But war and division is good business and peace and unity would jeopordise these business interests.

In reply to 8A machine elf:
I appreciate all the effort you’ve put into that elf but really you’re just propagating the same, stale old Cold War propaganda that Moscow was pumping out to gullible hard left dupes 50 years ago.

Just consider the facts on your own terms... if that hackneyed leftist bogeyman, Daddy Warbucks, was truly in charge, then why has the last 50 years seen western defence spending in steady decline?

And in the West what sector has seen a massive increase over the same period ?.... The health sector. Hardly the sort of reversal to be tolerated by your imaginary evil empire.

In reply to Stichtplate:
Cheers.
Why would the capitalist class of the USA not currently spend a higher proportion of GDP on health care for the American elderly and poor than military spending? There is money to be made there just as there is with weapons of war and war ?

Why don't they spend money on the 200 million children sleeping rough in capitalist countries throughout the world ? For the same reason they only care about democracy, when it is in one country.... the USA.

You will notice that the US only started spending more on health care than military spending after 1990 when they were given the almighty shot in the arm of the opening up of the entire Eastern bloc and USSR for exploitation by the capitalists and their transnational corporations.

The capitalist class own governments and markets, they own countries and everything in them including all the workers.

“There’s class warfare, all right,but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

Warren Buffet 2006.

You will be telling me that Buffet is another Red under the bed to like me and my CPSU propaganda.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

Boring.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

I seem to recall that Stalin and Mao clocked up substantially more dead fellow countrymen/communists than the West has ever done. And wasn’t that Adolf chappy a national socialist. And then Pol Pot and....oh the list goes on. And a very merry Christmas to you young elf.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

National health spending in US around 3 trillion dollars; defence spend is around 600 billion. You do the math.

In reply to john yates:


That would be on the basis of the highly expensive and inefficient health care system in the USA.

In reply to john yates:


I did above do pay atention.


Complete nonsense ! But that is because you come from the belly of the capitalist beast and all you are fed is lies from the capitalist class so it isnt your fault.

Hitler was put into power by German capitalists and supported by American capitalists cant theink why they would do that if he was an actual socialist and not just saying he was to fool the vast majority of Germans who were socialist minded.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

Merry Christmas Gudrun

In reply to 8A machine elf:


You're right in that it's hard to get at the truth of historical events. Best solution I've come up with is to look at lots of sources from all sorts of perspectives and then to try and apply a little logic.
Always happy to learn something new, always happy to change my view point, always suspicious when I come across somebody convinced they're in possession of the "irrefutable truth".

So do tell Elf, where do you get your info from? What has formed your cast iron self belief ?

In reply to Stichtplate:


Wolfie Smith?

Or the People's Front of Judea.

In reply to Stichtplate:
Yes i do the same as you to work out what the truth is and i am also very open minded but i question absolutely everything although unlike you i dont get suspicious when faced with someone who tells facts as facts are facts.
I get my info from many sources and use a lot of experience in this particular field to decipher what is obvious nonsense from what the facts are.
It doesn't take much scepticism to be able to see all the holes in the ridiculous death toll numbers relating to the USSR and China from the capitalist classes in countries that were doing everything they could to destroy the workers being in charge there.
Oh and i must add from revisionists in the USSR and China to which was mana from heaven for the capitalists.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

You come across as the sort of true believer whose definition of what constitutes a fact is largely defined by ideology rather than evidence, but I try to stay open minded so maybe you could educate me.

.... Why is it that whenever the hard core left gets into power (China, Russia, Vietnam, Cuba, Cambodia, etc, etc), rather than sitting back and enjoying the resulting workers paradise, thousands of their citizens abandon homes, possessions and extended families and risk their lives fleeing to the evil, exploitative, capitalist West? (with bugger all traffic in the other direction, including your good self, elf ).

In reply to 8A machine elf:

I was a member of the Communist Party for eight years. But heh. I defer to your deep and unrivalled insights into the way world works. Forgive my errors and misunderstanding of all the lies I have been fed. It has made my brain turn to mush. All has been revealed. Thank you

In reply to Stichtplate:

Each of these countries had different circumstances before a socialist revolution took place and these circumstances would obviously dictate many of the reasons why some people would leave. Take many of the people running from the Cuban revolutionaires who were the rich that were depriving the Cuban people of basic neccessities and the gangsters who were treating the people like prostitutes and spreading crime. Of course many may have been the families of soldiers who took part in Bastista's torture and murder of 20,000 Cubans prior to the revolution.

Or ordinary Cubans who believed the nonsense spread by the USA about socialism.

Many of the people who fled Russia and China after their great revolutions were bourgs and collaborators with imperialists or crumbling old regimes and didnt fancy an equal society where everyone worked for everyone else.

This was true in Vietnam though different in Cambodia as it was the US carpet bombing "If it moves kill it" of Cambodia that drove people into the cities for safety after the USA had destroyed the countryside and farms.

Many people emmigrated to socialist countries btw from the UK and from everywhere else you just dont get told about them.

PS.John i was a member of the CPB for a few years as well, good crowd , got invited to Havana during their annual march one year unfortunately couldnt go.

In reply to 8A machine elf

Class .

In reply to 8A machine elf:

At the height of the Cold War almost half the world's countries claimed to be Communist, there are now only 5 left and of those 4 of them have firmly embraced capitalism. North Korea has not. I'd strongly recommend you to visit NK, or watch any of the documentaries filmed within their borders or even just look at a night-time satellite image of the NK peninsula and note the light distribution patterns.
As for your claim that many people left the UK to live in these countries, perhaps you could give any details ? I've visited a few of these countries and have seen absolutely no evidence of Western expats, while all across the West you'll find little Havana's, China towns, little Russias etc, etc.
Communism has failed. After 100 years of experimentation only one country is attempting to follow it's policies in any meaningful way. Despite your delusional stance it is obvious that the West's few remaining communists aren't flocking to move there.

In reply to Stichtplate:

Firstly it was at most a third or only one quarter of countries that were socialist at its height.As for the DPRK the last time i was a regular poster in here the bbc Panorama did a documentary where they send some journo or supposed journo out there.
I watched and came back on here where i wasnt surprised to see that it was ripped to shreds by most people as being embarrassing lies and make believe.
This is the standard rubbish you get in the UK from the same right wing people (journalists?) that tell us JC is a communist and a threat to Britain.So if they say that about him what other lies are they going to say about a nominally socialist country that is on the US list of target countries for regime change.

Is there a little Havana in the uk or just one in Miami where Batistas terrorists and those who supported his dictatorship ran to?
There has been Russian and Chinese communities in London and elsewhere for a long time before the young socialist revolutions took place in 1917 and 1959.Russians ran from the Tsarists and Chinese came over when Britain was plundering their country for centuries and forcing opium on them(was Britain the worlds first and only mafian drug dealing state?)
When i said many people moved from capitalist countries to socialist ones i ment individuals and families from all over the world especially socialist minded people. Have an area full of a certain community of immigrants isnt a set standard to gauge that those are the only ones with immigration.
You say communism failed but it didnt in fact fail.It doubled the Chinese population in 27 years raising life expctancy and decreasing infant mortality,it brought full literacy,free health care to all people for the first time and kicked out the imperialists giving the Chinese their country back agian for the first time in centuries. The soon to be first economy in the world is using the imperialim of the capitalists to raise the development of China but the Communist Party have done this and they are in charge.

As for the USSR the communists took a backward nation of illiterate,starving slaves and created a super power with full literacy,full emplyment,free health care,equal rights for women,free education etc and defeated everything the capitalists could throw at them from 12 capitalist countries invading to economic strangleholds to the nazis invading and the mighty communists defeated them all.

Doesnt sound like much of a failure to me :-P if and they invented space travel.

Socialism was brought down against the will of the people in the USSR and other countries in the Eastern Bloc. It was brought down by a capitalist clique that rose through the ranks in the communist committee of the CPSU.
It was brought down the only way it could have been (from within)and that led to all the other socialist countries in the developing world losing their biggest asset.
The only failure was that of the people being caught out by trusting the bastard Gorbachev,Chubias etc.

As for the light in the DPRK you have raised an interesting point and one i was thinking of starting a thread about,namely the wastage that goes on in capitalism and how it is destroying the planet.

Perhaps if we had a night time satellite image of the world 150 years ago when the planet was still healthy it would look like the DPRK and perhaps we should take a lesson from them and turn all the lights out at night.
Of course the crime levels and terrible inequality in capitalist countries would make that harder.
As for me or communist moving to Cuba or the DPRK well tbh i couldnt handle the heat in Cuba as im not a fan of hot places and at 50 i am struggling to learn Czech never mind Korean.
I am Scottish through and through so i likeall communists fight here to increase class consciousness as this is my land with my people in it.
I dont tell you if you like capitalism go try live in capitalist Haiti where they eat pies made of mud and dirt to survive or capitalist HK where people are forced to live in small cages.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

The opium wars in China are far more complicated than that. Opium was at the time a globally traded commodity even in1916 its price was still listed as a commodity . It was used in all sorts of pharmaceutical applications .the Image of opium dens was for the most part incorrect. You could in Europe go into any pharmacist and buy it over the counter.

The wars were was much a symbol of Chinese autocracy using its powers to restrict free trade.

Well worth getting a summary of Chinese democracy activists such as Huang Yanming on this issue....that is if you are open to reading alternative ideas.

In reply to 8A machine elf:

Ok elf give me a straight answer....
Firstly, which countries today do you consider non-capitalist?

Secondly, if Communism presents such a winning formula then why has it declined from scores of countries to 4 nominal and 1 actual?

....and please don’t move to NK elf, it looks hideous and you wouldn’t have any internet access (or electricity).

In reply to neilh:

Yes i am well aware that opium or laudenum was very readily availiable to households as medicine in the 19th century and "sold", or rather pushed by the British on the so called"free market ",which was also forced onto China and many other countries by guess who ?

The British thats right ! If i recall correctly the British forced someareas in India to grow poppies rather than tea in order to push it on the Chinese,which they did.
Even going so far as to start a war with the Chinese who didnt want their country flooded with British hard drugs.

In reply to Stichtplate:
Socialism has been attacked and millions of communists murdered by policies of the USA and British capitalists ,who tell governments what they must do.This has been happening since 1917 and indeed German fascism was just another project by the capitalists to attack worker rule.

When the capitalists nasty little fascist project failed to destroy the USSR then they started attacking all the new national liberation movements that sprung up around the world in the colonies against the capitalist imperialism.Which was another success created by socialism in the USSR who just defeated the fascist axis.
These emboldend national liberation movements were now the target for the capitalists from Vietnam to Malaya and Kenya to Cuba all these countries would be attacked by the capitalists and mass murders or genocides committed.

This was basically to kill every strong socialist movement that they could find and to continue to have colonies to plunder.So the CIA etc would attack any country that showed signs of socialism using proxies of all kinds of maniacs as well.
Now when Gorbachev's plan to destroy socialism started to succeed after 1985 then in 1989 and obviously the final nail in 1991 then the counties fighting to be socialist now were on their own against the might of the capitalists and their inherant,what do you call it ? evil?Thereby making being socialist damn near impossible for little countries.For the moment that is.

The communist party are still the opposition in Russia and they recently won the general election inlittle Nepal.When the US empire collapses socialism will rise again.

Btw with respect to your comment on internet access in the DPRK there is more to life than the internet,remember when there was none ? And we had to do our socializing in the real world rather than via a little screen. Not a bad thing.

Merry christmas its been and interesting wee chat.

In reply to 8A machine elf:
You are just plain wrong. Opium was was a globally used pharmaceutical drug at the time,it was not pushed.

Your view of the uk as some drug pedalling nation , along with other European countries, is just wrong .

In reply to 8A machine elf:

Communism failed it self. One of the reasons for this is its failure to recognise its failures and to blame everyone else. This refusal does not help its cause .

In reply to 8A machine elf:

Merry Christmas to you too Elf.

In reply to neilh:


You wont find a communist who says socialism didnt have some problems so i dont know what you mean. There were many changes that took place during worker control in socialist countries from spending more to provide consumer goods to satisfy demand rather than the neccessary spending on defence from the capitalist countries attacks to changing attitudes to lgbt. Of course banning certain capitalist media and books was good but also a bit heavy handed but considering the fact that the USSR was constantly under attack it makes sense.You dont build a new Soviet man by promoting and glorifying gangsterism,elitism,division,exploitation and imperialism amongst many other thing in capitalist media and culture.

The DDR should not have shot people who ran to get money from the capitalists who enticed them to with financial payments,that was a serious crime.

Stalin was uncompromising but he had to be in fact the rot toward capitalism started after his death although he made some mistakes especially Yezhov.

Stalin was firm on the constant need for self criticism as are all socialists so i do nt know what you are getting as communism was brought down by Gorbachev as he admits and it was done against the will of the people.

In reply to The New NickB:

Russian 'bot' strayed over to UKC from Facebook?

In reply to 8A machine elf:

I take it you have never visited Russia?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Says the person with no profile pic.

Good or bad i am well known by older ukcers on here and dont you think that is a very lazy way to try and diss someone you dont agree with ?

In reply to neilh:

Of course i have im a KGB handler ffs!

In reply to 8A machine elf:

My comment wasn't directed at you actually it was the guy who thought the Daily Mail was anti-Brexit.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Ok sorry.