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Quickdraws: thin or thick slings?

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 BrightEyes 21 Dec 2017
Hello!

Being fairly new to the outdoor climbing world I'm looking to build up my quickdraw set. I prefer sport but looking to venture into trad. I'm attempting to make a decision with regards to which quickdraws to buy. Ideally I'd like a set that can fit into sport and trad but I understand that probably won't happen.

After looking online and in-store (to test the weight and gates), DMM Alpha, DMM Alpha Trad, and DMM Thor (only online) made the shortlist (the DMM only list was entirely unintentional!). I also found I really much prefer the wiregate quickdraws based on the weight and gate action. I know there are solid gate/wiregate combos and I think with thicker slings but couldn't find any in-store to test out. I am open to suggestions!

Out of your experience, what would you recommend? Should I stick with thicker sling quickdraws? These seem to mostly come with solid gates and I'm not really a fan. Are thicker slings really that useful? They seem easier to place if the hold is just out of reach and I understand that logically they would provide additional longevity, particularly from repeated falls (that sports climbers deal with) but would a noob like myself (who would rather eat raw eggs than take multiple/serious falls) find this useful?

I suppose I should just bite the bullet and accept something has to give!
 tehmarks 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Chunky slings are easier to grab and haul on if you're working a route, but quickdraws that tend to have chunky slings are also usually quite stiff, which is a big negative for trad. Stiffer quickdraws will more easily pull gear out with the movement of the rope than floppier quickdraws.

I'd personally go with a floppy quickdraw on the basis that pulling on a thin sling is inconvenient at best, whereas gear being pulled out below you is rather more alarming. I'm a big fan of 'half open' slings, where the half at the rope end is stitched, and the gear end is open.
 metrorat 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

My first draws were also multipurpose, I'd say you want ones that are perfect for trad and ok for sport. My personal favourite qd krab is on your list, the dmm alpha trad. I'd say it ticks all the boxes but those big, heavy sport draws are only really good for working single pitch projects. You won't want to cart them up any multipitch routes, sport or trad. I've only ever used skinny draws (strictly dmm coincidentally, just due to the quality of their metalcraft) and never felt I wanted the big fattys.
 JIMBO 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

For sport... Thick

For trad... Thin
 Greasy Prusiks 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Any of the DMM trad QDs will do it.

Trad QDs work anywhere but sport ones are specialised for sport routes (even there it's a very minor improvement on trad). I believe most gear companies currently have a dedicated team working on a trad QD that won't work on a sport route, that is the holy grail of QD design .
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 guy127917 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Worth noting some wiregates are hard(er) to use with a clipstick- the DMM ones we have (can't remember the model name) have wire gates which thin to a single point at the nose. This means the "trigger" on the clipstick can't latch the wire back because its not thick enough.
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 MischaHY 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

I recommend a mix. I've happily climbed highish E grades on mostly sport draws (skinnyish dogbones but definitely not trad specific), mixed in with a few extenders. I've got a bit of a theory it teaches good rope management as you have to make sure you don't bugger yourself with drag and gear popping out.

Downsides include pulling out a crucial traverse piece on A Dream of White Horses (HVS 4c) meaning you have to reverse the finish whilst your girlfriend trembles on the penultimate belay, or thrashing desperately around many a gritstone roof wishing you'd carried more slings whilst fighting horrific drag.

In retrospect, I've talked myself out of it. Take the trad draws - DMM Shields are excellent, just to add to the confusion.
 TobyA 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Is money not an issue? Really to start off "some quickdraws" are what you need. Having some short ones, medium ones and longish ones is best, but 10 short ones is better than 4 longer ones if you see what I mean.

Simond (Decathlon) do perfectly good wire gate QD multi packs for example, but Rock and Run or V12 sometimes have DMM ones on special if you really think that a certain model will be a crucial difference (it probably won't be! ).
 1poundSOCKS 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Some of the issues off the top of my head:
* Gear pulling out/rope drag - best to have long, thin slings (18cm, 25cm or alpine)
* Quickdraws twisting - less chance with thick slings
* Weight - thin slings and wiregates are lighter
* Ease of clipping - for me, solid gate

So I'd probably go for mainly 18cm thin slings, and a few longer ones mainly for trad, the gear/drag issue would be most important. I think solid gates are better for the bolt end when sport climbing, I seem to recall an issue with wiregates snagging on bolt hangers and failing at low forces (although I can't recall the source for this so it might not be accurate).

If guess you won't be doing much redpointing, but some other issues to think about if you are:
* Extending hard clips is easier with long draws (I've used 2 x 25cm and 1 x 18cm on a single bolt before, that'd be a lot of 12cm draws)
* Grabbing draws when dogging/equipping the route - thick, long slings
 1poundSOCKS 22 Dec 2017
In reply to guy127917:

> Worth noting some wiregates are hard(er) to use with a clipstick

That's a good point. The DMM Alpha Sport have a notch down the solid gate for the Beta clipstick. Other manufacturers don't seem to do this.
 TobyA 22 Dec 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> I seem to recall an issue with wiregates snagging on bolt hangers and failing at low forces (although I can't recall the source for this so it might not be accurate).

I think it's to do with old style hook noses rather than the smooth design on modern keylock gates. More wire gates have the the hooks on the nose, therefore can catch on bolt gates, but you can get 'clean nose' wire gates too now.
 1poundSOCKS 22 Dec 2017
In reply to TobyA:

> I seem to recall an issue with wiregates snagging on bolt hangers and failing at low forces (although I can't recall the source for this so it might not be accurate).

> I think it's to do with old style hook noses rather than the smooth design on modern keylock gates. More wire gates have the the hooks on the nose, therefore can catch on bolt gates, but you can get 'clean nose' wire gates too now.

Ah, thanks. Remember a friend telling me years ago but forgot the details.
 C Witter 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Wire gates, not solid. Other than that, whatever you can find as cheap as possible, but as light as possible (whatever you have you'll quickly get used to). Then, if you're doing trad multipitch, rather than short grit routes, get a deal set of 10mm to 12mm 60cm slings and cannibalise your quickdraws to make alpine draws. If you're doing sport or short trad routes, you can put them back together as QDs.

That's what I do, anyhow!
 ogreville 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Trad draws all the way - light and fine for occasional sport route if you're not working stuff a lot.

You might also want to be conscious of bards on your karabiners when using the same draws for sport and trad.
If you take a fall on to a bolt and you weight the quickdraw, it can create barbs in the metal of the karabiner from the sharp edges of the bolt hanger.
When you then use this same quickdraw for trad, the top karabiner of the quickdraw could be clipped to a Cam/Hex sling. This could cut in to your sling and damage it.
I have use my Trad draws for sport routes many times but always inspect every draw afterwards for barbs before using them again with cams/hexes.
In reply to BrightEyes:

Moderate sized wiregate krabs on medium length dyneema quickdraw slings are easily the best "all round" option when starting out.

As you've realised and others have implied, trad style quickdraws generally work slightly better for sport than dedicated sport draws do for trad.

Your shortlist is a good starting point but the "default" option I'd recommend looking at are DMM Spectre 2, mostly with 18cm slings.
You can't go wrong using them as your baseline as they are probably the best value for money performance quickdraw option available (only £9-£9.50 EACH!!)
They are significantly cheaper than the other DMM options with fairly similar performance.
The krabs are a good size for all round use and 18cm works well as a compromise length, although handy mixed length packs of 5 draws (1x short, 3x medium, 1x long) are available.

Lots of options available but compared to the Spectre 2, most of the other options either look significantly overpriced or a step down in quality.

Whatever you decide, have a good Xmas.

 Tony Jones 22 Dec 2017
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Yup, another vote for the DMM Spectre 2 here. Very good value for money: I'm not sure why any aspiring trad climber (who wishes to dabble in a bit of sport climbing) would buy anything else, particularly if they were watching their pennies.
OP BrightEyes 22 Dec 2017
In reply to everyone:

Wow, thank you!

Loads to think about although I definitely reckon I will go for a trad style quickdraw. I don't think I'll be using the clip sticks but I'll take that into consideration for them. TobyA, yes - money is an issue but I figured I would see what I liked first as I have trouble with opening some solid gates as they frequently catch on my hands (am probably just really bad at clipping..) but don't have this issue with wiregates.

If I do get trad quickdraws, I'll make sure I check them every time for barbs (thank you for pointing that out ogreville) and if they do, I'll avoid using them in trad! I won't be making them into Alpine sets quite yet though C Witter, will leave that to you.

I'll also check out Spectre 2s again. I think I counted them out on the earlier sift at the shop as I think I thought the nose profile may catch onto the rope.
 tehmarks 22 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

I'll also vouch for Spectre2s. Most of my quickdraws are actually Prowires (essentially the precursor to the Spectre), and most of my other krabs on cams, extenders, slings, etc are Spectres. You certainly can't get a better quickdraw for the price - and at the beginning of your climbing career having 10 good quickdraws is somewhere more useful than having 7 good fancy quickdraws.
 JuneBob 23 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

I find extendable draws using slings very useful when climbing trad.
 Wayne S 23 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Hi,

Not read the thread to death so at risk of duplication, an all purpose QuickDraw would be something like a DMM Spectre with a 17/18 cm express. The standard thickness (11mm?) sling is fine, though not sure if DMM might be moving towards skinnier slings now (less good for dual purpose). One end will be captive so you should only be getting any burrs on the gear end, though you might want to dress this on occasion if clipping into slings on Trad, but generally it’s just something to monitor. Dedicated solid gates solve this problem if reserved for Sport climbing, but are less good on Trad.

 routrax 23 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Yep, thick for sport, thin for trad.

You can also buy the dogbones (sling bit) separately, so can just get one set and change according to what you're doing.

https://rockrun.com/collections/slings/sling-length-12cm



 Dell 23 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:

Or just to add further confusion, you could buy sport draws and a load of 60cm slings, converting them to slingdraws for trad use.

No no, just get the spectres and be done with!
OP BrightEyes 23 Dec 2017
In reply to routrax:

Ah yes - I'd be concerned about messing up when putting it back together though!
OP BrightEyes 23 Dec 2017
In reply to Dell:

> No no, just get the spectres and be done with!

I'm starting to think I might as well! lol

 Dale Berry 23 Dec 2017
In reply to BrightEyes:
Hello,

My sport draws are a combination of a Spectre 2 on the rope end, with an Aero for clipping the bolt. I have the not so wide nylon DMM slings as well as the fat ones. The 18cm versions of the narrow ones (16 mm?) could well give you a solution that suits what your are after. I got each item individually at what- ever the best price was from the helpful people @ V12, so worked out a good deal cheaper than an equivalent specialised set.

This way you have something solid to take the abuse at the bolt end & something light, yet big enough to clip the rope into. The sling gives me reassurance that it’s not to thin and dainty if it needs to be grabbed, or otherwise take abuse, along with the flexibility needed to avoid drag lifting out all your trad gear. Bigger crabs give better radius for the life of your ropes and gear, should you fall to boot.

Also wire gates and clip sticks work fine; just clip inside the gate rather than round the outside, if that makes sense.

Dale



 Fakey Rocks 16 Jan 2018
In reply to BrightEyes:

You' ve probably bought your kit now, but just in case you haven't,  or for anyone else...

I’d recommend 2 to 4 short QuickDraw sling lengths, for clipping the first couple of bolts / trad gear, this marginally shortens the fall if you do ping off low down, and maybe the other two could be srategically used elsewhere enroute, but make the rest 18cm or 25 cm, as it's usually going to make clipping the rope on a panic clip a tad easier.

Re thick or thin ... I don't like thin on sport, as I'm often mindful about which way I wanted the rope clip biner gate side facing, usually away from the fall direction, but, except with 10 and 12cm lengths, longer (18 + 25cm) thin trad type slings would often twist in the direction you don't want them to face!

Whilst this point is important on trad too, which way the rope clipped biner faces, it's more important that you don't risk lifting your gear, so medium and longer thin supple slings are then best for trad, 18's or all 25's, and a couple or a few slingdraws made out of 60 cm slings.

Re biners, wiregates are more acceptable for trad because of weight savings, but there is /was an argument that they are good for sport too, as wiregate's gates are much less prone to gate flutter at the rope clip biner and possibility of rope unclipping then.. but looking at the biners most pro's use, it's probably not a concern?

If you intend to do sport mainly with a trad type of mindset where you will climb a bit below your limit intent on onsighting everything, then the marginal weight savings of wiregates might also be of interest. But with sport, within a year or so of getting confident about falling on bolts, which most now start to gain through indoor walls, you might want to add a few heavier duty sport draws, or just heavier duty carabiniers that you can interchange the wiregates with before you leave home, that you can perhaps put on the crux(es) of your redpoint project.

There's usually only a couple of places you might more regularly fall, the crux(es) until you figure it out, and some random place after because you are pumped. 

 I used to swap and change my wire gates between trade + sport slings, but it's tedious if you go out a lot, so I bought wire gates for everything.

Now I'm beginning to add some heavier duty straight gate keylock biners to the bolt clip ends of my sport draws.

Falling on bolts will start to eat into your carabiniers, so with wiregates, it's good to be able to distinguish which end you will always bolt clip, by having different colours, eg, always use silvers for bolts, and a colour for the rope. Sport draws make this clear with a straight gate for the bolt and bent for the rope.

Wiregate biners may be less durable with regards to bolt chew, than sturdier solid gates.

Solid gates often have higher strengths too, which may be a comfort for some if you're a heavier person? 

Most bent gate biners are a decent size + really easy to get the rope in, sometimes a wire gate can feel like it's harder to clip.

I haven't tried any bent wire gates, but they are available.

I have dmm spectres, chimera, alpha light., but WC wild wires look the same, and WC helium compare well with dmm chimera + phantom if u want super light in a normal ( more manageable?) size.

Sport biners I'd buy ... Dmm shadow ..light + strong.

 

Post edited at 09:23
 Fakey Rocks 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Fakey Rocks:

Wild Country Proton + Electron very strong too.

 Fakey Rocks 16 Jan 2018
In reply to BrightEyes:

If buying biners and slings separately for whatever reason, bear in mind that smaller biners have smaller baskets and are designed for trade sling pieces, ... Sport slings will not sit in them properly, they will end up sitting at a silly upwards tilted angle.

Spectre 2 size / shape biners will take sport slings OK, but chimera, alpha light / trad , phantoms + some others won't.

Likewise WC wild wire biners probably will take sport slings, but maybe astro + helium biners won't?

 Fakey Rocks 16 Jan 2018
In reply to BrightEyes:

Quickdraw Slings with external rubber / placky keepers for the rope clip biner, are a better idea than with internal rubber, as this will soon tear out.

Edelrid bullet proof might be a great idea for the bolt ends on 3 or 4 super doggy draws, perhaps a couple more if you use quickdraws to manage rethreading the lower offs, maybe these ones matched with bulletproof rope clip biners if you want a pair of dedicated lower off + then top rope quickdraws.

Post edited at 16:07

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