UKC

Hi all, I just had my first time in Scottish winter on a 2 day mountaineering course. I noticed some short comings in my gear and just wondered if people could give me some suggestions on improvements. 

1. Exposed back! this was super annoying my jacket kept riding up. I was planning on buying some high waist salopettes for this - any recommendation on this ? 

2. Belay jacket - Using a M.E Fitzroy again when standing around I was still cold even with my hardshell, softshell pull on, fleece and base layer. Is it worth buying maybe the Citadel instead or just using more layers?

3. B3 boots - I have quite wide feet and using my normal size and even a size up my toes go numb because the boots aren't wide enough. This can be remedied by thinner socks however I don't want to end up with cold feet. Any advice on wide fitting B3's?

Thanks for all your help in advance and apologies if this is in the wrong forum.   

So I'll bite with No.2

The Fitzroy should be ok as a belay jacket - perhaps it would be worth thinking about what you're wearing under that. A winter clothing revelation for me was the Brynje Super Thermo baselayer top. Working on the traditional string vest principle, it allows warm air to be trapped next to your skin, with a 'normal' baselayer on top of that. That could be a powerstretch top or one of the gridded tops (my Berghaus Furnace is rightly named!) Fleece is a good insulator as a mid layer, but if it's cold I may wear a microfleece but then find a thin synthetic layer on top of that will work much better than a heavyweight fleece - something like the Patagonia Nano Puff.

Given that you already have the Fitzroy, this might be a more flexible and economic way of approaching the problem.

1. Salopettes yes, my back is never exposed. I'm old school, Paramo Aspira for me, thought difficult to source these days. They do Aspira trouser with braces, not convinced or any other similar products short of a full bib?

2. ME Fitzroy very popular, anything warmer will be much bulkier. Change baselayer for dry one gearing up, if back not exposed, certainly feel warmer.

3. I've wore double plastics, Scarpa Guides, always get cold toes! Wiggle room certainly helps them to warm up quicker.

Stuart

I also highly rate ME Eclipse Hoodie type tops to change into when stripping off baselayer.

Stuart

I’d say it’s probably better to reconcile with yourself that a bit of discomfort (especially being cold) is part and parcel of Scottish winter climbing.  The best way to combat it is by standing about as little as possible, and when you are stationary keep moving to keep you blood flowing (do squats, shrugs, wave your arms about etc).  When you get a bit more experience and are heading out for climbing days, you won’t be standing about as much as you would be on a course so your Fitzroy will be fine.  It’s pretty much the standard belay jacket, I have one myself as do most of my partners. 

As for your waterproof troos, you could do a lot worse than a pair of ME karakorams.  If you shop around you can get them pretty cheap.  They’re not too expensive and tough.  They’re high-waisted and you shouldn’t have and problems with a gap.   However double check your jacket is not the culprit, it may be riding up if the cut is not right for you.  The hem should stay put when you raise your arms and not ride up.

Boot-wise Scarpas generally have a wider fit than sportivas but I have narrow feet so just wear sportivas im afraid.  You definitely want some room in the boot to wiggle your toes though.  Boots that are too tight mean cold feet.

Hope that helps

Be careful adding too many layers. Layers are good, but one reason for being cold when you're standing around at belays can be that you were too hot on the walk-in and got your clothes saturated with sweat, which then evaporates while you're standing still. Ideally you have maximum breathability while you're moving fast. That's easy on a dry sunny alpine glacier, more difficult in the wind and rain of a scottish glen. Layers that are quick and easy to change? 

+1 for Scarpa's being wider fit, but looser boots can cause even more problems, and cold toes can just be part of Scottish winter - warmer boots might be as important as wider. 

As regards 2, I find an insulated gilet/vest to work really well as an additional mid-layer under my softshell jacket on colder days. The Patagonia Nano Puff Vest is a very popular choice although there are several similar options available. That gives a more flexible option than a massively warm belay jacket.

Second, not all softshell are made equal. I ended up having to rapidly replace a softshell jacket after finding it just wasn't warm enough. I found my RAB Exodus worse than useless but have been much more impressed with the heavyweight RAB Baltoro Guide. Equally, others find that sort of jacket on the heavy and bulky side.

+1 for brynge string vests with a decent base layer on top or micro grid if cold, I would supplement the Fitzroy with a nano puff as a mid layer, this way you have something to cover spring summer autumn hill days as well.

start the day cold, you shouldn’t really reach your optimum temperature until your half an hour into your walk-in, it’s always tempting to throw an extra layer on in the carpark but try and resist

ive found the Rab strata over a light base layer/string vest does really well for walk ins, the alpha insulation seams to deal with the excess heat of a steep walk-in.

Why bring one synthetic insultation thing when you can have three?  I have a Citadel, an Arcteryx Atom LT, and on really cold days, the lightweight North Face Primaloft goes along as well. 

If you're not a lizard, you probably don't need to take it that far. 

For point 1, wear a long baselayer, and tuck all of your other layers into your trousers.  Make sure that you can raise your arms above your head.  I wear just a baselayer and a pertex top for the walk in; put a powerstretch fleece (and maybe a very thin extra fleece too if it's really cold) under the pertex top and then a heavyweight softshell (Decathlon) over the top.   The pertex makes the layers slide over each other, so no untucking of clothing.   ME fitzroy over the top for belays.  Hard shells are the devils work.   Wear a woollen/fleece buff to keep your neck warm (lots of blood in that part).

Yeti gaiters [over gaiters] will probably cue cold feet, so you can choose a boot that fits and add warmth.  I use a Mammut boot that is wide fitting but not well insulated, but have added an over gaiter.  Keeps snow out of your boots and allows for dry stream crossings [sorry, burn crossings!]

I often, but not always, carry a spare base layer top and change into it when gearing up, thus starting the route with a dry shirt.  'Course you loose all your heat stripping off......

I have a very wide forefoot and had a lot of trouble getting B3's that were comfy. My old Scarpa Jorasses pro's crucified me, and I finally gave up on them. Got some Mammut Magic Advanced High GTX's last winter and so far have been very pleased. 

What boots were you wearing? 

Jacket riding up is a nuisance even with salopettes. Better to fix it. Cut or fit is usual problem. Climbing clothes need shoulders well suited to arms reaching up, not just hanging by sides. Ideally stretch too but definitely a good fit around chest, or armpits will lift up with arms. Raise arms overhead when trying on - hem & cuffs should stay put. If jacket is lifting because too baggy (eg lanky climber or was sized to go over thicker layers) try a close fitting body warmer over the top. If that makes the sleeves short, use wrist warmers.

If cut and fit are good, try attaching jacket lightly to trousers at back with something like a strategically placed bit of velcro. Riding up has always irritated climbers and their solutions are very varied eg  the Big Face shirt, piece of elastic under the crutch, a cummerbund or tucking tops inside trousers before donning harness.

As others have said, being on a course is not always a typical day out. Every day is different.

If you regularly find you are comfortable whilst climbing but cold when belaying then definitely you should think about a warmer belay jacket. That is exactly what it is for.

The warmer jacket feels heavy and bulky when you pick it up and obviously over the top to clip on your harness but in your sack the extra weight and bulk are good value because thicker jackets have a better warmth to weight ratio.

A standard 100gsm jacket like the Fitzroy weighs perhaps 680g but the majority of that is in the shells, zips, etc. Maybe 250g is the actual air-trapping insulation material that keeps you warm. So for an extra 250g you could have a double thickness jacket that is twice as warm. Apart from down, there is no other layer that will give the same warmth for weight. The spare base layer that some people carry also weighs about 250g, possibly a fair bit more by the time it is soaked in sweat, but can not add the same warmth.

Obviously you want quick drying underwear as well but a good warm jacket traps enough heat to dry out damp clothing and the extra comfort it offers will help you keep calm if things get difficult. A lot of people, especially the lighter built, are shivering needlessly on belays because someone sold them a glorified windcheater instead of a belay jacket. I wish more manufacturers offered something with around 170gsm insulation for winter.

Another vote for the brynje and for getting a well fitting jacket. You don't mention what you have on your legs, I usually tuck my base layer into my long johns and although I've always fancied some high salopettes I've never had trouble with my jacket riding up wearing trousers.

You have a lot of clothes on, it largely depends on what you're doing (how fast you're moving) but if I'm doing anything non stationary in the hills and not with someone slow then I'll very rarely have any more than a thin mid layer and a base layer under my hardshell, and often less than that. You want to be a bit chilly when you're moving about in my opinion, the less you sweat the better. Accessories can take the edge of as well, balaclava, gloves, buff around your neck etc.

You don't say what your softshell is, if it's a membrane lined softshell then it won't be as breathable and wearing it underneath a hardshell isn't going to be the best combo.

Bare in mind that the next time you go out the conditions may well be completely different and you might be far too hot wearing what you did on your course. The difficulty with Scottish winter is it can be anything from freezing cold, dry and still to mild, windy and wet. Every different set of conditions will make you uncomfortable in different ways so don't go out and spend all your wonga on getting what you think the perfect clothing system is for the conditions you've just been out in because it's likely they wont be the perfect system for the conditions you go out in next!

The citadel is a great belay jacket, I really feel the cold and it's one of the warmest and bulkiest jackets you can get. Having said that if I owned a fitzroy I probably wouldn't have changed to the citadel.

Can't really help you with the boots, Scarpa used to be considered quite wide at the toe box but I'm not sure if they are now. Nothing worse than ill fitting boots

I find the opposite of Scarpa; if my heel fits then the forefoot is too narrow, and if I get the forefoot right then the heel rattles around and lifts. So I went La Sportiva and they actually work much better as I can go a size up and wear an extra pair of socks while still not getting heel lift. I also learned that lacing can cause pinch points when standing on belays. Not necessarily noticeable when you're moving around but when you're stuck in an uncomfortable position for an hour or two you definitely know when you've done your boots up too tight!

I'd echo the points about not blowing all your cash on the 'best clothing system ever', because clothing isn't ever going to be perfect for all occasions. The trick is to have multiple pieces you can add/subtract from the package, and using experience give a best guess as to what's going to be most appropriate for the day. What's needed for a grade III ridge on a calm day where you're constantly moving is going to be very different to a steep mixed climb at the upper end of your combined ability where you may be standing still for 2+hrs at a time in a bit of a hoolie. Personally I'd rather climb cool and belay warm, so that means less layers for climbing (minimising sweat), and more for belaying. A fresh and dry layer to put on for climbing in can work wonders too. Long ski-style base layers are great for not riding up and exposing your back, and my climbing mid layer (an ME Eclipse hoody) sits under the waist of your trousers and doesn't ride up. That way even if my jacket does, I don't get too cold. Getting some warm gloves/mitts to belay in are a great investment too - stuff them down your front when climbing to keep them warm when you're not using them.

Basically, try to augment what you already have and use it differently, rather than replacing with more expensive gear!

Thanks to all for your advice and help! I didn't expect so many responses! So to try and answer what everyone has asked. Firstly I was on a winter skills course not climbing however, winter climbing is certainly something I want to get into.

1. This was my clothing system:

Top - cheap base layer, micro fleece, Rab vapour rise pull on (old type, pertex outside some fleece/pile on the inside), hardshell (Mountain hardware Quaser lite says it has an apline cut), M.E. Fitzroy (if cold). One first day I didn't use the micro fleece because the weather was quite good on the second it was typical scottish winds (30-50mph) and probably about -5 with quite a bit of snow

Bottom - cheap base layer, cheap fleece leggings (decathlon) and some borrowed waterproofs from the hut because I stupidly forgot mine

In terms of a system is that enough? From reading it looks like I would be better with stringy base layer, some stretch fleece - would quite like one of the rab powerstretch polar tech ones, and then a soft shell on top of that. Would you wear something like a nano puff on top of your soft shell? Also any alternatives to nano puffs they seem to be quite expensive? and are they robust enough to climb in ? 

2. I've always seemed to have a problem with my back being exposed. I also have it when I go skiing (down hill). The two main things are when I sit down and when wear a backpack. It seems it makes all my layers ride up even when I tuck them into my trousers. I'll check the cut of my jacket when I get home - the hem may move slightly however I normally only check the arms for no wrist exposure as I hate that as well. Also all of this seems to happen just when I am walking not necessarily when climbing.

I figured that I go buy high waisted salopettes which I could use skiing and in winter. Has anyone had any experience with the M.E. Kamchatka or M.E. Tulpiks? How high on the waist do they go? Some times a lot of back can be exposed. I'm worried I will have to get a full bib like a berghaus Exterm 8000 - worried that might make me get too warm though. 

3. Boot wise I have tried on Nepal extremes - lovely boot I love how high up my ankle it goes (I have weak ankles) I really wished they fitted me better, Scarpa Manta Pro's and Scarpa Mont Blanc pro. I gave up trying to find some boots before my course and borrowed some old Salomon B2 boots. All had the same problem on my right foot they were too small and crushed my toes so they felt numb I have the same problem with ski boots as well. I have already gone from 43-44 and worried if I go any bigger my foot will slop around in them. 

Would really like to try the Mamumt Magic but they are really hard to find! I have a pair of Mamumt trovat guides (when they did used to be called raichle!) and they fitted wonderfully. My only worry about the boot was that it wouldn't be warm enough when I start spotting around in the Alps.  

I could wiggle my toes in all the boots I tried but they still went numb! 

What you find the problem with the rab exodus was? friend of mine recommended me one as it was great to rock climb in and thought then it might have double purpose 

Looked great with a durable hard-wearing fabric, unfortunately just little or no insulation.

Don’t know where you’re based but , if anywhere near Manchester, go and see Si at Mountainfeet. I had exactly the same issue with wide forefoot and he sorted it with Manta Pros (which I’d already tried and rejected!) together with a high instep, off the shelf insole which effectively moved my toes back into the widest part of the boot. Sure he’d be able to help you 

+1 for mountain feet - Si sorted me as well. There have been a few discussions on UKC about fitting b3 boots - a quick search might give you some more ideas. 

Thanks gave them a ring today Si was incredibly helpful! I think I'll make a special trip up to Huddersfield to try and get the fit right. 

I check my jacket today and it does them rides up when I reach up. 

How do people remedy this? Is it a bigger size needed? Fit wise the jacket is fine but maybe I need a longer cut?

I find that if my jacket has any lift in it, it's sorted by a harness or rucksack hip belt anyway.

Yep, I sold mine as it was no good as a windproof. One one chilly windy day in Buxton, I marched up the hill to Jo Royles to buy a Paramo windproof as it was considerably better (more windproof, just as breathable and stretchy) as the Exodus.

Probably helps when the jacket is reasonable in the first place but if the hem is getting pulled up by the arms, the belt will only prevent it going back down. Can end up with an ungainly bunch of fabric above the harness, that makes it difficult to see your feet, belay loop or rack.

1. a simple solution is bracers. I use the montane velcro ones that fit through the belt loops. if you are wearing overtrousers then put them on the inner ones. also with this tuck  a heap of your layers into them