UKC

To the people who where walking on the wall at Almscliff today on their way to the crag please go to specsavers so you can read the signs which clearly say not to!!!

I believe it was the farmer himself who shouted at you to get down....

Idiots.

Yes it's muddy as hell on the approach but invest in some wellies and you'll survive!!

 

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

I must be getting old, I can honestly say I've never walked on top of a dry stone wall, I've never seen anybody do it and never heard anybody say they've done it.

Still, what could go wrong?

In reply to baron:

Have you seen the price of approach shoes these days?

I'll be damned if I'm going to get them dirty walking a hundred yards.

In reply to baron:

Access.

In reply to Lusk:

Jeez, it's that far to walk and muddy as well!

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

I guess it's worth bumping this by saying how thoughtless a thing it is to do. It can take ages to rebuild dry stone walls to be sturdy enough to be cow proof. 

The farmer was right to shout.

In reply to baron:

I've started a crowd funding page for the farmer to install a chair lift from the road to crag.
I hope everyone will chip in, dirty footwear in car footwells is becoming a serious problem and needs stamping out now.

In reply to Timmd:

Absolutely

In reply to Lusk:

I think a massive catapult would be better than a chair lift, cheaper to install, £0 / carbon free running costs and much shorter transit times.

I know they shouldn't have to but can't the farmer stick it roll of barbed wire along the top of the wall to stop this if it's a reoccurring problem 

In reply to thepodge:

It would look shit and why should the farmer pay for it?

In reply to thepodge:

A single strand would.probably do it

 Cheap.amd simple. Climbers could.paynfor that, no?

In reply to ian caton:

It could work but who's going to sort it out?

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

For f*cks sake! Who are these morons? 

In reply to ian caton:

 

There, fixed that for you.

In reply to spidermonkey09:

Personally I would take photos and put their pictures on UKC and at the climbing wall, it actions like this that got us banned from Whitehouse. Its that simple.

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

Did you speak to them at the time?  

Before I get flamed, I totally agree they are idiots.

In reply to J1234:

People HAVE to say something at the time; its worth being sworn at to know you did all you could. After the fact posting on forums is the easy way out; its a nice bonus to raise awareness but we simply have to tackle this at source.

In reply to J1234:

 

This ^ name and shame the f*cking idiots!

Idiots who walk on walls aren't going to be bothered by signs or being named and shamed. They have already proved they don't have a problem with shunning normal social behaviour and that their own self importance comes above anything.

Funny how the two people suggesting a financial solution to the problem get down voted. 

In reply to thepodge:

I think it's the addition of unneeded barbed wire that is the main reason for the Dislikes.
Expecting the farmer to pay for it is just rubbing salt into the wound...

 

In reply to FactorXXX:

I'll bloody pay for it if it means I get to access the place for years to come. Its only about 20 quid for 50m

I do get that they shouldn't have to... that was the first thing I said.

In reply to thepodge:

Would stepping stones be an acceptable solution?

 

In reply to JamieSparkes:

Surely the solution is just to wear appropriate footwear. If you are going Bouldering outside surely you have some idea that the walk in might be muddy in the middle of winter? 

At Almscliff if you have forgotten your boots you can always avoid the worst of the mud by walking back down the road to the farm and then up the footpath that brings you to the crag by Pattas arete. 

In reply to JamieSparkes:

It's a bit of mud. It obviously comes as a surprise to some but walking to a crag that's in the middle of a cow field in winter might be a little muddy.

Stick on your wellies (any keen boulderer will have a pair for winter grit season anywayprobaly whatever the decathalon vesion is this winter, eg https://www.decathlon.co.uk/arpenaz-50-warm-mens-snow-boots-black-id_834430...) and off you go.

In reply to sxrxg:

You would have thought so, but apparently some people don't.

In reply to sxrxg:

I'm not sure advising climbers to approach via the farm footpath is such a good idea. Access points are often the way they are based on talking to the local farmer.

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

To slightly lighten the mood can I just point out this thread title juxtaposition (that I've probably just ruined)?

 

 Don't walk on the wall at Almscliff!!!!!!!

 Death penalty

 Is circumcision already illegal?

In reply to MarkM:

Haha Death Penalty or Circumcision for wall walkers.. choose one 

In reply to sxrxg:

Well clearly this is the conscientious option, but as a general rule, working to the lowest common denominator is easiest from a social engineering standpoint - as there are always people who don't think about their impact in this way, then if we are looking at interventions, why not make them so that the least effort option is also the one that angers the fewest people?

In reply to JamieSparkes:

a paved path and a proper carpark with a pay and display machine?

In reply to JamieSparkes:

Otherwise known as catering to the feckless.

In reply to Deadeye:

Didn't speak to them. I was halfway up something and heard shouting, turned around the the farmer was telling out of his tractor at 2 people on the wall.

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

Is it feasible to have a limestone path laid down - say 2m wide? 

I appreciate that would cost money and would need maintaining...  

In reply to afx22:

As I suggested to the local BMC facebook page, why not start some crowdfunding to create a paved path and/or put some pointy rocks on top of the wall? The number of climbers who go there you'd hope that we could raise enough money quite quickly.

In reply to FactorXXX:

What do you propose doing then?

Why don't the BMC build a bridge over the mud?

 

 

In reply to afx22:

Or get hold of some stone locally and set it into the ground to provide a hard surface, the farmer may know of some knocking about and even help to transport it to site (if he was asked nicely).

 

In reply to Iain(2010):

If the farmer takes his cue from the farmer at Whitehouses there'll be plenty of loose stones, suitable for a path, lying around the crag !

In reply to Iain(2010):

Are we really discussing building a path on private land to a private crag because a few people don't want to wear wellies to the crag?

In reply to galpinos:

I believe there was a sort of similar discussion on this very forum back in 2000.

In reply to galpinos:

What's your alternative?

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Explain to people that the outdoors is sometimes muddy and maybe spending a tenner on a pair of wellies is money well spent?

There's a lot we need to do to educate on what is and isn't acceptable, as per the various UKC and UKB threads.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I thought that that was neatly covered above - death or circumcision.  

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Self-police and get people to engage their brains before climbing at these locations outside. Education and public calling out of these people is the answer, not building a path to cater for the lowest common denominator!

At the weekend I and the group I was with observed four people walking on the wall. Shouting 'Oi!' loudly from beneath The Keel/The Virgin resulted in the person getting off the wall three times out of four. According to a friend walking nearby they were absolutely mortified- and rightly so. Hopefully thats a lesson learned and they won't do it again; progress.

In reply to spidermonkey09:

"Absolutely mortified " Its hard to believe that anyone could think walking on top of a dry stone wall was acceptable until till told otherwise!  

In reply to scoobydougan:

Tell me about it- I can barely believe it either! But someone I know and like did it recently and she had no idea. Rest assured she does now!

I suspect quite a lot of the time there's no malice in it, its just symptomatic of a lack of 'countryside savvy' among the general populace. Its second nature to me having grown up in the country but I guess its plausible that if you'd grown up in a city/town, only got into climbing at uni or even later, that these things wouldn't be as obvious as they are to many others.

Hence why education is so crucial, both for climbers and non-climbers (3 of 4 people I saw walking on the wall at the weekend were non-climbers). For what its worth I think the general public are a bigger threat to Almscliff access than climbers themselves, mostly because theres so many more of them, plenty of whom come utterly unequipped for conditions from urban areas.

In reply to spidermonkey09:

Ah, fair enough. Do you think that that's not happening enough already and that there's more that people could do to improve the situation? I'm only seeing this from a distance without knowing the details, and I'd got the (possibly mistaken) impression that by the time the pillocks all got educated then it might be too late...

In reply to spidermonkey09:

I reckon it's entirely feasible for respectful, non-numpty climbers to NOT REALISE that walking on a wall is a 'no go'. It's not necessarily that obvious when the wall appears really sturdy, and the alternative is churning up a farmer's field by trekking through a mudbath. 

I'm not saying it's right or ok, just that it's not as obvious as some people seem to think on here. Education is key - a polite sign asking climbers, and walkers too of course, to keep off the wall would surely make a big difference. If folk are committing these crimes without even knowing there is an issue, that is fixable with forums like this and appropriate signs at the crag and maybe also through some bmc crag etiquette campaigns? 

In reply to Ramblin dave:

In my personal opinion, I think two things would make a massive difference.

1) Signs to make it crystal clear. This is something the BMC have taken steps towards doing already and I and my friend put some temporary ones up at the weekend. This at least means that those who can read and are less savvy are aware of the issue. Good progress on this front.

2) Most crucially- speaking up in the climbing community and challenging those doing wrong. Climbing is a pretty insular sport, and climbers don't tend to like confrontation in my experience. A lot are very reserved, quiet and actually quite shy/awkward in social situations, before we even get to confrontation. But if we just sit back then we will lose access; I think its really important to try and look past the personal discomfort to have a word with someone for the greater good. It gives other people observing the courage and impetus to do it next time as well. I'm lucky because I don't mind shouting at people for being spanners(!) but am well aware there are plenty who find it hard.

In reply to Naomi Buys:

Totally agree Naomi - there are now some temporary signs up to that effect and hopefully some more permanent, 'official' looking BMC ones in the pipeline. The upsetting thing is that the signs have been up since Saturday morning and it didn't stop some people!

In reply to spidermonkey09:

That's sad news. 

The people who don't know: not necessarily numpties, let's give them a chance to repent...

The people who do know but walk on the wall anyway: total idiots!! 

In reply to Naomi Buys:

Would you be so charitable if they were using Pof or chipping holds because they didn't know any better? 

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

What grade is the dry stone wall?

In reply to scoobydougan:

Good point. But using pof and chipping holds have long been included in various lists of 'dont's', such as on bags of moon chalk, online articles and bmc handouts. There is a fair degree of saturation for those examples and that has proven effective. Walking on walls could be included on lists like these, hopefully with similar success? 

In reply to Naomi Buys:

Your probably right it's just coming from a village in the countryside it seems obvious but like you say not everyone has the same background 

In reply to string arms:

7A+ in wellies, 4 in approach shoes.

Although dodging the farmers bullets give you a + grade

In reply to scoobydougan:

Perhaps signs need to include other stuff such as:

Don't park in the field

Don't cut trees downD

Don't paint the rock (I kid you not)

Any I have missed?

In reply to spidermonkey09:

Was this Sunday? If so I was in the group by the virgin. One of the people in the group ahead of the wall walkers was saying that the wall walkers read the bloody sign out loud, and did it anyway!

 

not knowing isn't an excuse, that's just being an arsehole. 

In reply to Tomtom:

Think how stupid the average person is, then think that 50% of people are stupider than that!

Yeah this was Sunday. I agree, never going to stop some selfish morons but I (optimistically?) think they're in a minority, in the climbing community anyway.

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

This is why god invented wellies.

In reply to Root1:

To throw at their heads and knock them off the wall? 

In reply to galpinos:

Yes.

Getting the message out there and challenging anyone that does walk on the wall is all good.

The mail root cause is that it's a damn muddy field through winter.  Installing a path would stop anyone even contemplating walking along the wall.

It would also narrow the damage to the field - the churned up sections, due to footfall, must venture a good 10m from the wall in places.

In reply to afx22:

The issue here is I suspect that there is only a footpath. There is no right to venture 10m from the wall. There is no right to climb, only the Farmers good will. A pair of wellies are £9.99.

All it takes is some divvy on that wall, and that Farmer in a bad mood, and no climbing at Almscliffe. Unless someone knows something I do not.

 

In reply to J1234:

Since it's clear that a significant minority continue to walk on the wall, and that many (perhaps) most of the culprits aren't even climbers sop have nothing to lose, then why don't we put our hands in our pockets and finance a solution? Some maintenance on the wall-side footpath would be good, but most effective would be putting something on top of the wall to remove it as an option.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

The wall looks good without any apendages. The Farmer does have a problem in that the path is a ROW, which he is stuck with, and will get churned up. Therefore some kind of BMC/Ramblers working party, with materials funded by the aforesaid could maybe help solve the the problem the Farmer does have. This is where the BMC is worthwhile IMO.

In reply to J1234:

I don't even like Almscliff and I'd happily chip in a fiver if the BMC asks

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I'd be happy to chuck a few quid into a crowd funding campaign, no doubt plenty more would too.

In reply to afx22:

The problem is that whilst it might "narrow the damage" when it is wet it would also stop it growing grass for livestock to eat for the whole year.

Are climbers really naive enough to believe that this is a good idea?

In reply to JamieSparkes:

Yup. Just pull the top stones off the wall, chuck them in the muddy bits and hop along dry shod.

In reply to galpinos:

Yes. Because its a high traffic path. There are lots of non-climbers who go to the crag as it is an attractive landscape feature with great views. 

When you get high traffic then a muddy path just widens and widens as people try to stay clean and walk further away from the path.

The other problem is that because the path is so well trodden the soil becomes very compacted and water stays in the surface layers of the soil and doesn't drain particularly well, this then keeps the areas waterlogged and muddy for longer. 

If you've walked the track you'll notice the large amount of mud at the roadside end, it's extremely muddy. This is in part due to soil being washed off the surface of the path from further up the hill, as a result of the surface water after high rainfall being unable to percolate into the soil when it then runs off over the surface.

The situation isn't good for the farmer, it's not good for climbers and other site visitors. It's not a case of 'man up' and wear wellies as its the compacting nature of lots of feet that is a significant contributory factor here - just build a path.

 

 

In reply to timjones:

Well what alternative would you suggest? Telling people on the internet to wear wellies clearly won't work, and even if every single climber acted responsibly, we are normally outnumbered there by non-climbers.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

If we get to the point where farmers are forced to accept a loss of valuable grazing because climbers and walkers are incapable of walking on the ground rather than along the top of a wall then we are going to continue to face some serious access issues.

 

It's very simple, don't walk on the fecking wall!

In reply to timjones:

Clearly it's not that simple, as people continue to walk on the wall.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

So do you have a better answer than stoning over useful farmland?

In reply to timjones:

Churned up mud from heavy foot traffic is surely not 'useful farmland'?

In reply to timjones:

How about mesh?  Grass grows through it, feet don't erode the ground.

In reply to timjones:

Earlier in the thread I suggested putting some pointy stones on the wall to make it hard to walk on.

Or you could probably just put some "stepping stones" at the bottom of the field, it's usually only the section next to the stile that's a quagmire, the rest is normally better. And looks it even when it isn't, so by the time people find out that it's boggy there as well, it's no longer convenient just to hop onto the wall.

In reply to Siward:

That depends on whether or not it dries up in the prime spring and summer grass growing months.

In reply to davidbeynon:

I guess it's possible that something could be achieved with a bit of basic landscaping and drainage.

In reply to timjones:

Have you ever been to Yorkshire?

In reply to timjones:

A single paved path through a field is not going to impact much on what livestock have to feed off.

The issue is the wall. So, I assume, local climbers are already in discussion with the farmer to sort out the best solution to the problem. Basically his land he calls the shots.

In reply to timjones:

The field in question is roughly 24500 square metres.
Would a path of rock paving, a metre wide (generous), make that much difference as opposed to an ever widening tract of mud?
The length of the wall is about 160m.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Does "putting some pointy stones on" mean having it re-topped professionally?

It could prove an expensive way of providing the knobs with an even greater challenge.

In reply to Lusk:

i can’t argue with that logic.....sounds like there’s room for a car park and a cafe as well. ????

 

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Does the grass grow all year ro7nd in god's own county

In reply to timjones:

It rains enough that you'd wonder if it didn't do.  

In reply to Timmd:

Ah, but the average grass species is as soft as a beanie clad boulderers teetering along the top of a stone wall when winter arrives 

In reply to timjones:

 

It was the idea that it ever dried up that I was querying

 

In reply to timjones:

I can't help but ask now, does grass continue to grow year round if it doesn't get trampled on and similar, even if just by very small amounts?

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

Has anyone suggested.... a Zipline?

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Now that is funny!!!

In reply to Tom Valentine:

That would be the ideal I guess. Or an amateur bodge job would do at a pinch

Depends if you think they walk up the wall (a) because it's an easy way of avoiding the mud, or (b) as an exciting challenge. Given that it's more-or-less an elevated path at the moment I suspect (a) is more likely.

In reply to Timmd:

Latitude, altitude, aspect and soil type will all have an influence on grass growth throughout the winter.

On our farm in the Midlands, with heavy soils and a northerly aspect grass growth during the winter is pretty much non-existant and certainly not enough to feed many sheep.  However we do "bank" some autumn growth by shutting livestock out before grazing it in January and February. Woe betide anyone who is misguided enough to trample it before it is grazed!

In reply to timjones:

Thanks for the informative reply, I can image it's woe betide.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I had a word with 2 people walking on the wall on Saturday morning - they would fall under (a). They missed the makeshift sign advising not to do so as they accessed the wall from the adjacent field and not the stile/public footpath. Apparently, had they seen the sign, they wouldn’t have walked on the wall - oblivious to the fact that walking on dry stone walls isn’t the done thing.