UKC

Hi all,

I know this has probably been asked numerous times before, but I am looking to learn how to lead climb and would like some advice!

I've spent a lot of my time in the mountains over the last few years with my uni mountaineering club, but mainly scrambling/hiking. I've done two winter skills courses in scotland where I wasn't leading but basically seconded up the few pitches that we did. In the past few months I've become a confident top-roper at an indoor wall and am looking to get into lead climb. Seeing as my end goal is trad climbing and to be climbing outdoors ASAP, I figured it would be best to do a learn to lead climb course outdoors (with like PYB or something) rather than an indoor course at my local wall... thoughts or advice on this?

I'm looking to join a local club (im not at uni anymore) but don't actually know if that will help me learn how to lead!
Any help would be massively appreciated, thank you!!
Alisha

In reply to AlishaCamm:

I would think that most local clubs would be able to help you in leading. Or at least in finding a partner to practice with

In reply to AlishaCamm:

An outdoor course seems like an excellent plan, I can't make any personal recommendations, but PyB has a very good reputation. Libby Peter's book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rock-Climbing-Essential-Techniques-Mountain/dp/095... is very good background reading. It would be a good idea to let folks know whereabouts you live for club recommendations.

In reply to AlishaCamm:

Some clubs are better than others for developing novice members, largely because clubs are not training organisations so there is no direct obligation on any members to teach people.

If you meet up with one of your local clubs and get to know people you may well find that people will be willing to teach you how to lead, this will likely start off with seconding pitches and then progress to leading. If you post in the lifts and partners forum you will likely find that someone will be able to recommend a local club, or possibly volunteer to take you out climbing.

In reply to AlishaCamm:

A lot depends on how happy you are 'picking things up' from more experienced climbers in a club environment (this is what all my partners did), or whether you would be happier with a more formal approach (which clubs won't give you).

In reply to AlishaCamm:

I'd actually say that an indoor course can be good for getting some of the basics covered (how to lead belay, how to clip, starting to get your head round lead falls), which means less to learn when you get outside.

In my experience, a "learning to trad" course can feel like you're having a tonne of information shovelled into your head very fast, even over a period of several days. If you've already got the stuff you can learn indoors covered, that means more mental space to focus on learning gear placement and so on.

Obviously, your mileage may vary and it depends on how you absorb information best, but it might be something to consider.

Also, if you can be a safe and competent belayer, you're much more likely to find people who are willing to climb with you outdoors and help teach/mentor you.

In reply to AlishaCamm:

Your profile doesn't say where you are based but many walls do organise outdoor leading courses that take place on crags rather than indoors. Learning to lead trad indoors is very hard, if not impossible, because absolutely vital  skills, such as placing gear and being able to assess risk cannot be taught without hands on  experience.

You may also find that in these litigious, safety first times no one in a club will want to take responsibility for teaching you for fear of finding themselves liable should anything happen to you.

In reply to slab_happy:

Well the times have changed - trad used to be the norm - and the only option in fact, so the learning curve was slower - agreed.

Agreed also - that use of indoor wall could segment the learning curve - get your head in the right place using ultra safe 1m spaced bolts - learning to clip efficiently alone is an asset. The danger of course is breaking back out into trad - too easy to stick with bolts - but perhaps this is just my expat perspective. Should be plenty of incentive in the UK crag scene. 

In reply to AlishaCamm:

Try the Introduction to Leading course at PyB.

In reply to AlishaCamm:

If you're in the high peak area, the mynydd club run an event for people in your position Turn Up, Tie On. Keep an eye on http://mynydd.org.uk for details

In reply to LeeWood:

Sounds like the OP's already got her heart set on trad, though! I doubt she's going to be led astray by the first whiff of a bolt ...

In reply to AlishaCamm:

Learn ideally from someone who has been trained to teach lead climbing and is experienced in teaching same. They may make the initial process easier, less worrying? Check out AMI or Guides website.

Wow everyone, thank you so much! Definitely did not expect this much feedback this quickly!

I currently go climbing at Big Rock in Milton Keynes (any fellow midlanders out there?!), so not exactly close to anywhere remotely craggy, but im considering getting in contact with MKMC to see if I can join them at some point. 

Ideally I would like to learn from someone with as much as experience as possible honestly! So yeah I think I'll take a look at some guides you guys/courses have mentioned and maybe try and find someone who is willing to dedicating a bit of time to teaching me!

Thank you everyone!!!

In reply to AlishaCamm:

Hi Alisha I am currently looking for people to teach trad climbing in the run up to my MIA assessment later this year. Drop me a line if you fancy getting some free instruction in North Wales at some point.

In reply to AlishaCamm:

I'd say learn at a course at your local wall.  There are two aspects to lead climbing: learning to clip and pay rope out and learning to fall and catch falls.   The thing you will get from an indoor course that you may not get outdoors or with a friend is experience falling and catching falls in a safe environment.

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

This was an issue raised at the BMC Club Committee Training day back in December, clubs insurance covers people taking novices out and teaching them climbing skills (exchange of money/ goods for the instruction negates this as far as I understand).

In reply to Harry Ellis:

I can't understand why this post would get a thumbs down, someone who is offering to teach lead climbing to a new comer to the sport, who has had some form of training, albeit not assessed but more than most and its gets a negative response. Baffles me.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I think this, and similar posts, are sensible advice. This although I hardly use walls and myself learnt firstly by top (actually bottom)  roping on sandstone and then a mixture of self-taught and meeting more experienced people (overall slow and potentially hazardous). 

The many other aspects could come later through eg club membership and reading. Notably setting up and using anchors.

 

 

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Seconded.

This may be a personal weirdness of mine, but I found learning to lead-belay and holding leader falls far more nerve-wracking than learning to lead myself.

Indoor walls are much better for practicing falling and holding leader falls than easy trad (because of all the issues of hitting ledges, excessive wear on gear placements, etc.).

There are so many things you can't learn indoors, but it makes sense to use it for what you can.

Then when you get outdoors, you can focus on all the things you can only learn outdoors.

In reply to SebCa:

Wasn’t me but put yourself in the shoes of qualified instructors / guides. It does grate a bit when trainees are offering their services for free. Yes they’ve had some training but the current first time pass rate is between 3 and 4 in 10 for MIA.

In reply to jezb1:

But presumably a trainee MIA is better than a 'well this is how I've always done it' muppet like me? I gave up 'taking people climbing' when  on a club meet decades ago we were given a beginner to take out. We were a rope of three with him in the middle and me third. I be;layed the leader and told the beginner not to bother taking the gear out as I could do it on the way up and then nipped off for a pee. I could hear the guy calling for slack and thought he must be utterly useless as it was a diff or v diff but when I got there he had followed my instructions to the letter and not taken the gear out. Unfortunately he had not unclipped it either so the rope went down from him, through the bottom runner and then back up to the belayer He was effectively soloing and looking at a 40ft decker by the time I scampered up to him, unclipping the rope and telling the belayer, who was out of sight, to take in. Why the leader, an equally experienced climber did not wonder  why he was paying out so much slack to a second I cannot say but lesson learned - if you are reasonably experienced it is horribly easy to overestimate the  knowledge of the beginner. Presumably trainee MIAs are taught not to make my mistake.

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

On reading the thread back it was perhaps a bit of of me to offer free instruction given that the o.p. had asked for recommendations for courses to be paid for. I have posted on here looking for mock clients but in that post I was more explicit regarding the status of a trainee MIA and appropriate caveats. Apologies to anyone who thought it cheeky.

It begs the question Jez if the pass rate is so low at the moment, what should trainees like myself be doing to gain good experience to improve it? I'll drop you a pm later. 

Harry

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

You'd hope so, but there is no assessment on the training, so I'd never just assume they are.

Yep, not climbing past runners, staying in sight etc are amongst many other topics on the 9 days training.

I'm not saying all MIA trainees are not up to taking people out safely, far from it, there's some absolutely stellar trainees out there.

In reply to Harry Ellis:

One word answer: Mentoring.

Those working with a mentor are much more likely to pass (quantified by some research in to the question).

What has been happening as a trend is trainees are getting out with novices and other trainees and putting the time in, but without quality feedback from experienced MI's.

More than welcome to drop me a message  

In reply to jezb1 and Harry  

 

absolutely agree with Jez on this one, and get involved with the AMI as a trainee member rather than waiting to pass before you join.

 

holler if you’re in the South West and want to get out/shadow.

 

back on topic, if you’re looking for an outdoor learn to trad course, PYB are of course very good. Other providers also run fantastic courses - look for the AMI logo if you’re wanting leading.

 

 

indoor leading is a different beast to outdoor trad climbing - I would suggest when arriving from an indoor top-roping background both are worth approaching independently.

 

In reply to AlishaCamm:

It just gets better with practise. Overcoming your fear and improving little techniques. I climb with people who will push me beyond my abilities and travel with me to places in the world to climb, and that really helped. Have a read from my link how climbing has changed me --> https://www.lydiascapes.com/rock-climbing/

In reply to AlishaCamm:

Put a post on here under lifts and partners and explain you'd be happy seconding and would like to try leading at some point, join your local climbers Facebook group and do the same. 

Mia trg people are very keen to get people without experience to practise on, you already have one offer, more will come, take them all up.  

The first is better, better than a course too, as you end up climbing with people you may then spend years with, instead of a doing a course and getting no climbing partner at the end.