UKC

Great - Whatever you might think of JB:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-43556887/speaker-john-bercow-accus...

Sexism? 

If he had called Sir Christopher Nugee, "Mr Thornburry" would that be sexist too??

What utter piffle.

Oh dear.

What's life like in Victorian England?

Saw that earlier and thought it was one of JB's better telling-offs. Well deserved too, BJ was being a dismissive and patronising git.

He wouldn't have done it, which is the point.

Terrific.  The more that people - well, men - are called out on this sort of thing, the better.

T.

You are a sexist.  And I claim my £5

Sorry, I'm a genderist.  And I suspect you have an agenda.

T.

That's a fiver saved...

An agender, surely?

Possibly even an agender agenda.

T.

I still stand by my request for the fiver.  You are welcome to point out where you were not being sexist and I will give your five pounds to charity.

I could of course fix your statement with the odd omission if you prefer?

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/watch-theresa-may-puts-lady-nugee-pla...

Interesting that Theresa May was not described as 'sexist' when she called Emily Thornberry 'Lady Nugee'.

No, I stand by my words.  The exceptions serve only to prove the rule.

T.

golly

The sexist part of the reprimand was only a small aside in the rebuke, Johnson was mainly being called out for being a dick. May was also being a dick which is why she grudgingly apologised without the need for intervention from the speaker and there was, therefore, no need to debate whether it was also sexist or not. 

But it wasn't meant to be sexist, it was meant to be offensive in other ways. They call her Lady Nugee because it makes her sound posh and disconnected, its a barbed comment for a labour MP. In fact what if anything is sexist is that the wives of Knights are given a title, Lady, but the husband's of Dame's aren't. I don't mean sexist against men, I mean sexist as in patronising to women to group them by their husbands achievement.

Interestingly they modernised this once before in C17th moving from Dame to Lady. Why anything, should stay Mrs/Ms. Obviously if the women is awarded it she would still be Dame.

To call it utter piffle, one would have to overlook the fact that woman have routinely been referred to as X's wife, rather than individuals in their own right*.

*...and fairly often still are, in the media.  

He never would be called Mr Thornbury.

Never mind the media: some antediluvian family members still address letters to Mrs (My First Name) Greenbanks.

Typical of the BBC to show the edited version and not include the bit when Boris humbly apologised to Thornberry by saying "Sorry love, won't happen again".

Pfeffel surely?

I bet Boris loved being told off like a naughty school boy as it reminded him of Eton and the expected spankings...

But, in fact, she is Lady Nugee, and she maintains her Thornburry Maiden name to be down with the poor folk...

But that's not what Boris did. He referred to her by her title, one she gained when she married Lord Nugee

Wonderful, please throw another peasant on the fire for me.

But she has chosen to use her maiden name in politics, to differentiate herself from her husband. So, her being called X's wife, and Mrs Bugee, are, in this context I think, broadly comparable.

It could appear John Burcow(sp) and the people who applauded him seemed to think so too, what with sexism being  mentioned and receiving applause . 

I've eggs to go and eat, and stuff to do, but that's how I see it. 

What about Yvette Cooper, what would her reason be for keeping her maiden name?

Is she a lady too? 

You know she isn't, don't you?

Either you're being obtuse or you don't know what I'm getting at.

( Have a good evening, peeps. )

The wider context here being that for Britain, the 17th century is still modern.

She couldn't afford a personalised number plate?

Her husband is political marmite, or toxic? 

When she isn't actually slagging off white van drivers for having an England flag on their house. 

He seems genuinely offended. There's a subtext; what is it?

He's on the telly?

I think you'll find that she became entitled to be called Lady Nugee when her husband received a knighthood. I think it's perfectly reasonable to decide not to use the title in those circumstances. The title makes neither her nor her husband any more aristocratic than Mo Farah or Bradley Wiggins.

As for choosing to keep your maiden name on marriage, that's perfectly acceptable I would have thought. To argue otherwise is surely sexist.

Martin

I'd suggest being both an MP and a lady carries some weight when it comes to a large corporation wanting to put you on it's books as a director etc.. or paid advisor. Sports stars bring PR etc.. a Lady in parliament brings influence. 

We have not exactly seen quorn sales go wild in the last year or two!?

And you know this how? Actually "in fact" she is entitled to use the name Lady Nugee but chooses not to, which she is equally entitled to do. Perhaps she simply has no interest in using a title that is deferred to her because of her husband's position. This is not unusual. Her parentage, history and spouse are hardly a secret.

Incidentally what would be Boris's reason for not referring to himself at all times as Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson?

Have you seen their results recently? Not exactly poor performers.............

Martin - don't feed the troll. Bigger/Stroppy(banned for being abusive)Gob is a well known WUM/Troll.

But is it "sexist" or just plain piss taking?

So do I. 

Agreed

No problem with that.

It's my belief that Emily "white van man" Nugee/Thornburry has only chosen not to use her husband's name due to reverse snobbery, and that's what Boris was using against her.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30139832

The same reason that most of us use a forename and a surname, instead of our full name I should imagine.

Or is he being sexist?

Oh do stop whining like a spollied child Graeme, it's so demeaning and unattractive,

Try joining the debate instead, or is it beyond your limited capacities? 

Thornberry resigned her Shadow Cabinet position on 20 November 2014, shortly after the polls closed in the Rochester and Strood by-election. Earlier in the day, she had received much criticism after tweeting a photograph of a house in the constituency adorned with three flags of St George and the owner's white van parked outside on the driveway, under the caption "Image from #Rochester", provoking accusations of snobbery.

She was widely criticised by fellow Labour Party MPs, including leader Ed Miliband who asserted her tweet conveyed a "sense of disrespect", Chris Bryant who said that it broke the "first rule of politics" and Simon Danczuk who suggested that the party had been "hijacked by the north London liberal elite"

In a September 2016 TV interview, whilst serving as shadow foreign minister, Thornberry was asked to name the French Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Development(Jean-Marc Ayrault). Thornberry confirmed that she was unable to name the minister, and accused the interviewer of "pub-quizzing" and sexism. Thornberry then asked to discuss the situation of North Korea, so the interviewer asked if she knew who the South Korean president was, but Thornberry did not know, saying that the interview was descending into a pub quiz. Female journalists and politicians, including Isabel Hardman and Ruth Davidson, quickly criticised Thornberry for using an allegation of sexism to cover her own poor performance. Thornberry then appeared on Radio 4 to say that the interview had been sexist because the interviewer had not asked such questions of a man because the interviewer assumed that a man would know the answer. However, the interviewer had previously asked a man, Alan Johnson, comparable factual questions. 

Thornberry has frequently campaigned for a greater commitment to affordable and social housing. She was criticised when the local Islington Tribune newspaper discovered that her husband had bought a former social house, which was being rented out to her aides

"Thornberry has lived in Islington since the early 1990s. In July 1991 she married fellow-barrister Sir Christopher Nugee, of Wilberforce Chambers, in Tower Hamlets, and they have two sons (born December 1991 and July 1999) and a daughter (born November 1993). Sir Christopher later became a Queen's Counsel, then a High Court Judge, when he was knighted, at which point Thornberry became entitled to be styled Lady Nugee, although she does not use the title. Since 1993 they have lived on Richmond Crescent, Barnsbury, where Tony Blair also lived until the 1997 general election, moving in on the same day as the Blairs.  Thornberry also part-owns properties in Guildford and South London. 

In April 2005, it emerged that Thornberry had sent her son to the partially selective Dame Alice Owen's state school 14 miles (23 km) away from her home and outside her constituency. The school was formerly based in Islington and still reserves ten per cent of its places for Islington pupils. The Labour Party opposes selection and Thornberry was widely criticised over the issue as a result. Chris Woodhead, the former chief inspector of schools said: "I celebrate her good sense as a parent and deplore her hypocrisy as a politician. When will those who espouse the virtues of comprehensive education apply the logic of their political message to their children?" Later, Thornberry's daughter also attended the school.

She's a perfect example of the hypocrisy which lies at the heart of the modern Labour party.

I understand all that.  Don't think I can assimilate any lessons about hypocrisy from the Tories regarding lifestyles & pandering to the voting population...NHS & Brexit just recent examples.

My original point was not in any sense party political though. You have helped make it into that by wading in with a typically boorish comment about another (Opposition) politician and her lifestyle.   

BTW. You don't state a source for your lesson in morality.

This is a fun game "In 2004 Woodhead became chairmain of Cognita, a company that owns and runs independent schools.[11] Woodhead and Cognita were reported in the press as having expelled pupils, and were accused of "milking profits", and dismissing a whistleblower who accused the company of allowing ineligible teachers to participate in the state run Teachers' Pension Scheme"

Anyway, did Thornberry's daughter take an entrance exam or was she taken because she lived in the catchment area? 

Wikipedia.

Ed had a good reply to a reporter who asked if he'd had problems with his schoolmates ribbing him  over his surname. Yes  he replied , but it was much worse for my sister Ophelia 

She was criticised by Simon Danczuk, I’m warming to her!

Classy. 

"whataboutism"

The discussion was about  Thornburry, wasn't it?

Where was I boorish? It helps if you quote what you are referring too,

What "lesson in morality" It helps if you quorate what you are referring too.

Apt I thought, seeing as Graeme just waded in, insulted me, and added nothing to the debate.

I'll say it again, I do not insult unless insulted first.

The topic was about the Speaker reprimanding Johnson for being sexist and you've brought up what school Emily Thornberry's daughter goes to.

No, it was about Boris Johnson and how the Speaker reprimanded him for saying something that was out of order.  So I could list all the hypocritical things Boris has done in his polititcal and private life, and all the cock-ups he has perpetrated, and all the lies he has told, but I don't think the UKC servers have enough room.

Boorish by missing the point - Johnson's sexism - and deflecting by 'whataboutery' yourself.

Morality = discussion regarding hypocrisy & what is & what isn't.

Anyway, got no time for the kind of dull willy-waving that you're into; thanks for diverting the thread.

Which she didn’t do, of course. Just silly lies in the Tory media, which you choose to believe for some reason.

jcm

golly again, amazing what difference a slight misreading makes

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/21/emily-thornberry-resignati...

Exactly - confirming precisely that she did nothing of the kind, but that dishonest folk like Cameron were able to pretend that she did.

jcm

She tweeted and she acknowledged it. The guardian clearly isn't tory, but it still acknowledges she made those comments.

Even a most ardent Labour supporter has to admit; thornberry is a typical champagne socialist. 

Yes, and I gave my reasons why I thought Bojo had used that line of attack. I then provided evidence for my assertion.

You should try it.

So I showed why that line of attack may be effective.

You could, if that were somehow relevant to the debate.

I denied it was "sexism" (though a reasonable reason why it could be perceived as such was later given,) and gave my reasons why I thought it so, how is that "boorish"?

There was no discussion, and no attempt at relative morality, I just showed why  and how Thornburry is open to that sort of attack

LOL! That sentence, roughly translated, reads; "I've no answer to your points Big Ger."

So she resigned over "silly lies in the Tory media"?

Did Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander lie when he said Labour leader Ed Miliband had "not held back" in expressing his dismay with the MP's actions?

"Anyone who wants to stand for election and be successful next May has to start with a fundamental and deep respect for voters," he told BBC Radio 4's Today.

"The anger Ed (Miliband) felt when he saw that tweet reflected his understanding that we need to earn the support of people around the country."

Answering a question about the Commonwealth, you thought it a pertinent line of attack? Please explain its relevance; I can't quite grasp it.

Can you point out where I said I thought it was a pertinent line of attack?

So, you don't think it was pertinent? So, you... wait, what are you arguing? 

What I've argued all along, that this was just another piece of political infighting/banter, which due to the obsession with "sexism" of some, has been blown out of all proportion.

You'd swear Boris had punched her in the face....

"...the noble and learned Lady Baroness whatever it is, I can’t remember what it is … Nugee" is a straightforward attempt to minimise the person in question and the effect, if not the intention (which we can never know), is at least mildly sexist to reduce someone to their husband's name and title, which they've expressly and pointedly not taken.

Or given her address out to a friend who was going to break her legs...

Good job the Labour party and Thornberry have never used someone's social status(either upper or lower level) as a derogatory comment or in an attempt to be little someone in a debate. They can take the moral high ground here. 

Curiously, a female tory attempted to defend Boris and was shot down in an equally derogatory manner by the speaker, but this received little or no coverage. 

I wouldn't say "never", but I'm glad we agree on this issue.

Care to give it some with a link or a quote?

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/boris-johnson-apologies-for-sexist-c...

Towards the end. Guess you have to look at Hansard for the full extract as this is just part of it . Harriet baldwin is her name. 

“I do not mean to be unkind to the Minister, and I know she won’t take it amiss, but the Foreign Secretary doesn’t need to be defended by her and I know she wouldn’t argue with the chair, she’d come off rather worse.”

What's derogatory about that exactly?

You could infer that he some how considers himself superior. Just like boris's is about what it may or may not infer, not what it actually says. Both comments are matter of perspective.

It appears the whole thing is likely to be about bercow trying to look all pc because of previous allegations against him. 

Bercow probably had the tirade rehearsed after Theresa May used a similar 'Lady Nugee' tactic and was just waiting for someone to unleash it on.
He must have thought all his Christmases had come at once when he saw it was Boris... 
 

Exactly. Just biding his time. 

Could be: "The Speaker is the chief officer and highest authority of the House of Commons"

http://www.parliament.uk/business/commons/the-speaker/the-role-of-the-speak... 

Or doing his job by not allowing name-calling, no matter how clever those doing it consider themselves to be.

I’m sure EM was angry. ET afforded the media and Tory spinners an obvious opportunity for dishonest but politically successful attacks. The fact remains that she obviously did not in fact slag off the gentleman whose house she photographed.

jcm

A picture paints a thousand words.
Maybe her intention was totally different, but most people seeing that photo would assume that the sender was essentially saying: "Look at all those English flags, must be a bit of a dodgy character living there - typical Rochester!".
Obviously, it doesn't mean the person living there is anything of the sort, but unfortunately, such use of English flags is now associated with a certain type of patriotism and that's why Thornberry was criticised for it.

Have you turned to religion? 

?