UKC

Most climbers will at some point have experienced that horrible feeling when you have to accept that your favourite carabiner or quickdraw is going to have to go in the bin. After multiple seasons of climbing the metal at the apex of the carabiner will become worn and thin. Whether this be from rope drag or from the bolts in the cliff. You're going to have to get rid of it.

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In reply to UKC Articles:

This seems to be all the rage now. I've seen a worrying example of the steel insert wearing through on the latest Petzl croll when used in caving. The result is a razor edged hole in the steel which is hidden inside the device and under the rope. 

In normal climbing situations there is much less abrasion, so this would take a long time to happen, but I'm left thinking what is the point? The gates and screws on the last couple of belay krabs I replaced for this reason were pretty tired anyway. 

Andy

In reply to UKC Articles:

Like the Croll that Andrew mentions this is a solution in search of a problem.

Naff idea.

In reply to Andrew Wilson:

In the case of the standard Bulletproof the point is that many biners are left on sport projects where stripping gar for each attempt is no the done thing, leaving thousands of biners out there which are slowly but surely wearing through and producing said razor sharp edges on aluminium biners. In the case of the HMS, it's simply there to protect the wear surface, especially when used with some autolocking belay devices which tend to concentrate all the wear in one area. I'm not sure why having an extra margin of safety would be a problem...

In reply to beardy mike:

I thought it just wore the krab and made it thinner where the rope rubs. Not the same as my example. Same thing applies re gates on perma-draws, they will be knackered if left out long before the krab wears out. Also the sling will be the weaker link in this case I would have thought?

In the case of the HMS, it's simply there to protect the wear surface, especially when used with some autolocking belay devices which tend to concentrate all the wear in one area. I'm not sure why having an extra margin of safety would be a problem...

Well I've given an example, and the USP is not an extra margin of safety, as I don't think that is required. The USP is to add longevity to the krab, which I don't think is required (or achieved) either.

Andy

 

In reply to Andrew Wilson:

www.thebmc.co.uk/the-dangers-of-worn-permadraws

One problem with permadrawers is the rope rubs a sharp corner  on the krab when lowering off.  This forms a lethal cutting edge when the krab attempts to hold a fall directly onto it.

In reply to Andrew Wilson:

I am going to buy one of the HMS belay krabs for sports routes/climbing walls.

My latest single rope is full of alloy dust which will not wash out. I can only put it down to a soft belay krab I bought at the same time.

 

In reply to Andrew Wilson:

The strength reduction isn't generally a problem. What tends to happen is that a groove gets worn in the carabiner and the groove will tend to have a bit of an edge on it. If you then take a fall on the carabiner it can damage the rope (and in extreme cases has cut the rope completely).

You can find plenty of examples at popular crags with fixed draws (admittedly not that common in the UK). I saw several in Santa Linya around the beginning of last year, for example.

In reply to Rick Graham:

My sport rope is the same. Makes you wonder . . .

In reply to Andrew Wilson:

On quickdraws used for both trad and sport so bolt krabs aren't gouged. Permadraws, or on projects getting a lot of toproping. For use with any other belay/abseil device where all rope touching surfaces are visible? 

I agree that for a lot of people it wouldn't be needed, but it's a pretty awesome design that gives you a lot of the benefits of a steel krab without the massive weight penalty. 

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

For all the cases you mention above a stainless steel crab is better suited. Weight penalties are irrelevant for permanent draws etc. Like wise for Rick's belay crab, it is for sport/the wall, weight is largely irrelevant. 

I can see these crabs failing well before the steel has begun to wear. Repeated thermal cycling and load cycling on the wear point will cause the interface to loosen and become rattly and unnerving. At which point the user will replace the crab. Which is what edelrid want. 

In reply to UKC Articles:

Is the insert just squished into place?

In reply to UKC Articles:

For protection from a bolt, isn't the insert at the wrong end of the krab?

Yes, it is...

In reply to Presley Whippet:

In sure the destructive testing Edelrid would have undertaken on the crab would have taken longer than your throw away comment on thermal cycling took to type.  

Like it, or don’t like it, that’s your call, but I’m sure you couldn’t back up your comment on longevity of the Edelrid product!

Personally, I cannot see I would ever have need for the product.  But I certainly wouldn’t knock any attempt at innovation.  

Wayne

 

In reply to Rick Graham:

I’ve got a couple for the belay bolts if working a route from top rope, or one for the bottom bolt when working a route on lead. A direct response from having carabiners with grooves worn in them.

In reply to Wayne S:

Should I throw away my membership of IOM3 too? 

In reply to beardy mike:

We are presuming it is like the petzl ascenders, where a plate of steel is placed over the allow at the area of maximum wear. soounds a really good idea...

The steel layer is worn away (slowly).

Once worn through it tends to lift a bit (blister up) presenting a razor sharp edge to the rope.

It is difficult to know how worn the steel is untill it is worn through.

This isn't theoretical:

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20777.0  (Obv, caves are generally more abrasive places..)

In reply to top cat:

Oh no it isn't.

Not unless you're one of those strange people who turn their krabs round after clipping.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Thanks to everyone for the interest in both the competition and the product.

The steel insert is held securely in place by a pressed fit and glue to provide even more durability. 

Edelrid carabiners have been thoroughly tested it is highly unlikely that the gate will wear out.

The Bulletproof carabiner range offers an innovative solution to increase the life of carabiners in areas which are known to wear and degrade by either the rope or bolt hangers.

 

 

 

In reply to Edelrid:

I think that is rather what Petzl thought.

What happens when the plate plate wears through?

How thick is the plate?  How do you judge the amount of wear  (assuming consequences of perforation are not benign)

In reply to Edelrid:

On the other hand, if you have some good answers they might appeal to cavers.

In reply to Andrew Wilson:

You see this on the hard-anodised belay karabiners from Climbing Technology, once the anodising is through you get a hard edge which starts shaving the rope when you lower someone and you get rope-coloured dust appearing on your hands.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

I'm not knocking innovation, and my original comment was in reference to a belay karabiner, as that was what the article headlined. 

I get the idea with the perma-draws, but why have a part of a krab which outlasts other parts of a krab (I'm talking sticky gates etc.) and the sling? You may as well change the krab at the same time as the sling.

I think the comparison with the Petzl croll is pretty relevant and many climbers (who don't use crolls) may not be aware of the issue. I should have posted my comment when the new gri-gri came out with a steel plate on, which is far more worrying ( I'm not a worrier). I certainly will not be buying one of those. 

Andy

I actually just got an Edelrid Bulletproof screw FG, for use with the Megajul and Microjul. Had annoying biners turning on their sides and a DMM belaymaster is not an option (indicated in the manual, although I see more people using belaymasters on there <whatever>Jul ). Hopefully, the clip fixes that issue, but that part is nothing new.

The steel insert; i don't think I'll need it. Although i certainly have wear on alu biners, I never worn one out. Then again it doesn't either and if you shop around not that much more expensive then the alu version.