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REVIEW: BMC Peak Limestone South

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 UKC Gear 25 Apr 2018
Peak Limestone South Montage, 4 kbWith trad, sport and bouldering at venues that range from national class crags to esoteric holes, this new comprehensive area guide from the BMC has plenty for everyone, says Rob Greenwood

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In reply to UKC Gear:

Brilliant guide, made our first quick passing foray to 'The P' on Monday after getting the guide. I remember dismissing the choss around the corner from Pic Tor as completely useless in around 1980! How times change, brill bouldering wall esp. if you like polished limestone sit starts (which I do). 

The BMC have really set the bar high with the Peak Limestone series, although I wish Shining Cliff (also in Matlock Bath) had been kept a secret. Girding our loins now to clip the bolts in the seductive quarries above the big Sainsburys. The guide really has a wide variety of venues!

The only minor downside is the inclusion of 80 odd pages of first ascents and index to the whole of the Limestone area. This really needs to be online now as a reference resource, rather than lugging it around. Minor niggle only.

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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> The only minor downside is the inclusion of 80 odd pages of first ascents and index to the whole of the Limestone area. This really needs to be online now as a reference resource, rather than lugging it around. Minor niggle only.

I guess it's a shame this wasn't split originally, hence it's larger/longer than it might have been. Still, 'lugg around' could be a bit of an overstatement - I doubt there's a single crag in the guide that has more than a 10 minute approach and 90% of them are single pitch anyway. 

n.b. re-reading the above I'm aware this could come across as a major response to a minor niggle, so apologies if it comes across that way - I haven't drunk my coffee yet this morning...

Post edited at 09:42
 Coel Hellier 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> . . . and spring is here (and along with it sun and sport).

Are you entirely sure about that?

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

The reason there are 80 pages of FA details rather than 40 is because a majority of the guidebook committee decided to remove FA details from Peak Limestone North. Putting that sort of information online is the same as dumping it in the bin and detracts from the overall quality of the book. The addition of the info is,m as Rob says, something that adds substance, context and interest to the book. The BMC Peak Area made a big fuss about this decision and so the history went back in, with none of the predicted detriment to the book.

Lugging an extra 30grams around is undoubtedly a challenge, so maybe reframe it as "extra training"...

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 John Gresty 25 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Gear:

I do not like the references to routes that say 'overgrown and unclimbable. They should not be climbed or cleaned', when there are details of quarries that have no right of access. Years ago the National Trust decimated the trees in Dovedale, and now we are being asked not to clean some routes.  

I know Gary Gibson consulted widely before tidying up a lot of routes in the area, but where did the request to abandon these 'overgrown' routes originate. 

I have, in the past, done some of these 'overgrown' routes, and it does seem rather hypocritical to to ask you not to do these routes whilst positively encouraging you to trespass into banned quarries.  

 I have stuck my nose into, and climbed in, most if not all of these quarries, usually only once, and do not find them particularly attractive places, even if very convenient.

Also places like Roystone Grange and Manystones quarry were climbed on, but not recorded many years ago and I wonder how much effort was put into talking to some of the pioneers of climbing in this area.

John Gresty

 

 

 

 

 Coel Hellier 25 Apr 2018
In reply to John Gresty:

> . . . it does seem rather hypocritical to to ask you not to do these routes whilst positively encouraging you to trespass into banned quarries. 

Requests not to do something for ecological and environmental reasons are a rather different issue than accepting bans on quarries.

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 Offwidth 25 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Gear:

Good timing Rob... the launch last night was good fun. Even Geoff M seemed happy. A few people I'd wanted to meet for ages were there.

Like Frank, as another ex BMC guidebooks editor, I always said the decision to remove FA lists from PLN was a mistake and the guidebook commitee (Lynn aside as she agrees with us) need to make sure they listen to the area meeting a bit more in future (the majority of local climbers intending to buy the book there said the extra weight was irrelevant to the added character from the history). I think the level is about right given this is two volumes worth... the companion volume of the previous Wye guide was OTT for most. John Allen was pleased to see the inclusion but some might ask what's he ever done that's historic in the Peak (hence the importance? 

In reply John Gresty

Maybe write something up and it can be added as a BMC web supplement as we did with some areas in the gritstone guides. Rick Gibbon, amongst others, has made similar comments.

 steveb2006 25 Apr 2018
In reply to UKC Gear:

Re comments about Easter Island - hasnt this been redescribed? - In my (old) book(s) Easter Island was always described only moving around to the leftof arete to gain the base of the final groove. The harder and much better version described, I always considered an combo of EI and The White Edge.  the original EI now seems to be called Easter Edge.

 Niall Grimes 25 Apr 2018

Thanks for the review, Rob

To that issue of First Ascents, great to have ones opinion, but it's a divided issue. The Peak Area might find it hard to believe but some people I speak to weren't remotely interested in FAs. I probably speak to the wrong people

And steveb2006, it used to be as you described but there is a photo in the Peak Rock book of Drummond on the FA of Easter Island and he is on the steep lower crack, so the route was misdescribed in old books. That way, up the pumpy crack, at E2, is the best and most natural line. Seemed right to give it its dues.

Anyway, really hope it draws some people out onto the crags down that way,

Niall

 

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Hi FtH

Hadn't thought of it in the context of training, but I guess it's all about incremental gains

 Offwidth 25 Apr 2018
In reply to Niall Grimes:

Thanks again for all your hard work, especially the usual magic touch on the look and feel of the book.

Frank and I are aware that our opinions are not shared by everyone but it was a very well attended  Peak area meeting and a huge majority. It's also a bit more than opinions, in my view, as there is a degree of responsibility on the BMC to provide an example in areas of history and 'education' (proportionate of course). Most if not all of the modern definitives include history and education at a similar level. Rockfax added more history. The YMC guides have reportedly sold incredibly well and are arguably the most feature-filled of any modern definitive guide. No topo guides I'm aware of ever sold that well, where information is pared down to the absolute minimum. ... so much for the reductive arguments made by some.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

One of the great things about these guides is that they shine a light onto weird and occasionally wonderful crags that would otherwise remain hidden under a bushel, whatever one of those is. You'd be surprised how many people I bump into at Lumbutts Quarry, Cucklet Delph, Drabber Tor or Buxworth Railway Crag. It's another excellent guide to add to the collection so jolly well done there.

FA details aren't a particularly divided issue, but it may seem that way if you only ask three people who share your views. FA details should be included for the same reason you include all the crags that aren't mainstream - they add depth and character to the books and make them better, as happened here. As Offwidth says, topo guides don't sell and Rockfax/Ground Up/etc include more history these days because people are interested. For a brief peroid, the BMC was the only British guidebook publisher to delete FA details from their guides which wasn't a positive thing. Those days are over, and various people have now stopped spinning in their dusty graves.

 Si dH 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Frank the Husky:

To add some balance to the discussion - I am one of the people who has no interest in First Ascent details. I don't see what depth they add at all. A well-written history section telling the story of the area, or perhaps a personal account of one of the major first ascents (a la Cloggy guide) makes for good reading, but in my view all the FA details generally achieve is to satisfy the egos of the ascentionists. Having said all of that, I'm not bothered by the small extra size that results.

> One of the great things about these guides is that they shine a light onto weird and occasionally wonderful crags that would otherwise remain hidden under a bushel, whatever one of those is. You'd be surprised how many people I bump into at Lumbutts Quarry, Cucklet Delph, Drabber Tor or Buxworth Railway Crag. It's another excellent guide to add to the collection so jolly well done there.

I definitely agree with this.

 

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 Offwidth 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Si dH:

Have you actually read many FA sections in any definitives, as a matter of interest?  Good editing of these mean important or interesting ascents get space (and some quality writing at times) and lesser ascents get much less and where possible get bundled. Another reason it's important is history is usually written into the terms of reference of those producing the guides (certainly so for the BMC) so often the only choice is include or put online.

I'm not sure I want to know much more about Frank's bumping at Lumbutts but nearly all the obscure places in the Peak with no access problems need more traffic, so its a delight to meet people at such venues, especially when the quality of the guidebook has led them there (I remember when, more often than not unless you were a local, guidebooks could get you lost). 

Post edited at 07:59
In reply to Offwidth:

Actually, unless I use my phone and the sat nav refs, I regularly find myself lost and bushwacking on steep slopes with the Churnet guide, but that’s part of the charm of the place (and the guide, or my poor navigation skills)

I love guidebooks and have a wall covered in bookshelves of guides and climbing books. The  overseas guides are usually the result of climbing trips, and the key thing to take away from all this is how far the quality and standard of brit guidebooks is (generally) ahead of the rest. Pride of place for me goes to the 1978 Froggatt Area BMC guide, a slim volume and the first I bought when I started in 1989. The cover has turned orange now and I cant remember the original colour (green?).

In the same series, in the Derwent Valley guide, the History section describes John Allen and Steve Bancroft ‘jumping’ across the roof on the fa of Castellan. The description looks word for word in the new guide. So, it got me thinking...

Apart from bolting quarries as they become available, the Peak is to all intents and purposes worked out. A few last great problems, but not like it was in the 80s and 90s. What’s the future for guides? The RAD app covers access and even got me to Conies Dale last weekend (thanks also to the Peak Limestone North guide). So, you’re closer to guidebook production....Is this the last series of new physical Peak Guides with maybe reprints with updates etc going forward?

I’m off to Northumberland now with some limestone bouldering off the M6 on the way courtesy of some Lakesbloc pdfs on my phone and my home printer. I am really looking forward to the new Lakes bouldering guide coming out, but it will stay at home. Like many new guides, too big and expensive to get trashed in my bouldering bag ;-( 

 Niall Grimes 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Sure, well, points taken. When it came to it we put them back in again. Thanks for the feedback.

Post edited at 10:25
 Alun 26 Apr 2018
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> how far the quality and standard of brit guidebooks is (generally) ahead of the rest.

This is undoubtedly true, but that's not to say that British guides don't have anything to learn; and it has to be placed in the context of the fact that, in many other countries, the dissemination of information regarding venues and routes is treated very differently to how it is in Britain.

Here in Spain for example, guidebooks are seen by many new routers as evil things that bring unwanted hordes of people to ruin their pristine, unpolished, secret crags. A newly developed venue will be kept secret for as long possible, being shown to trusted friends only, until inevitably word gets out, hand drawn topos appear on internet forums, and maybe then somebody will publish some sort of guide, and the unwashed masses arrive. At this point the crag will be "ruined". As a result, while many Spanish guidebooks may feature a 'history' section, FA information is almost never present for individual routes, the first ascensionist has probably only very reluctantly (if at all!) given permission for the routes to be be featured (the exception being for longer, more mountaineering type routes). 

In the UK, the opposite usually happens - once a person/group develops a crag to the limit of their abilities, they are usually keen to show off, for their work to appear in guidebooks, and for their first ascents to be credited appropriately (in the guide, as elsewhere).

My personal take is that FA information is important and deserves to be recorded, but in the modern online era a printed guidebook is not the place for it. People joke about the extra 30g, but at the crag a slim guidebook is a much more wieldy than a bulky lump. (I also think this applies to route-descriptions, which, in the modern photo-topo era, are essentially for entertainment purposes only; but that's another debate!).

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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

> Apart from bolting quarries as they become available, the Peak is to all intents and purposes worked out. A few last great problems, but not like it was in the 80s and 90s. What’s the future for guides? The RAD app covers access and even got me to Conies Dale last weekend (thanks also to the Peak Limestone North guide). So, you’re closer to guidebook production....Is this the last series of new physical Peak Guides with maybe reprints with updates etc going forward?

Guidebooks are not just about documenting new routes though. Once the new routes stop appearing, or slow down, there is still a great demand for updated coverage of existing routes. And it is not just the base data that changes. The presentation style and technology behind what you can do is moving faster than ever.

For example - ten years ago when we had really good digital cameras, I thought that I was getting crag shots that we would be able to use forever.  Now I look at those photos and think how poor they are and how we can do so much better. In fact we have pretty much re-photographed every crag in new editions because of this.

Obviously we also have the possibilities offered by digital. I know not everyone is enamoured by guidebooks moving to apps, but they do offer incredibly possibilities for more frequent updates, reader-created data, plus all the added benefits offered by location GPS on the devices and interacting with others before and after your climb plus much more probably that we haven't yet thought of.

So I would say that the future for guidebooks, both print and digital, has never been more exciting than it is now. Although that said, I too have a fond memories of old guidebooks that helped shape my climbing career. For me it was the 1983 Stanage Millstone guide but is it the memories of the climbing that fuel these positive associations rather than the books themselves?

Alan

 

 fotoVUE 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Niall Grimes:

> To that issue of First Ascents, great to have ones opinion, but it's a divided issue.

First ascent information is part of the description of a route (its history) and should be included with the route name, grade, pitch length, and where the route goes. It's interesting to know who did the first ascent and when it was established, when reading the route description.

With good use of typography, space isn't an issue when including it under the route description.

I can't even begin to fathom why it would be a divisive issue unless it is some sort of collective neurological disorder that the 'don't include its' are afflicted with.

 

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Just pulled my Stanage Milstone, bought new from Roger Turners in Nottingham in ‘83. Haven’t looked at it in decades and what a brilliant guidebook. Full of ticking and notes. 

‘ couldnt find the piton runner on Zeus, but it was ok, top is like Weetabix’

’found Winyards Nick, guide is wrong about the bouldering’

’Harvest !!’

’MM fell off Old Friends, ripped the gear but landed ok, we all did it in the end then headed into Sheffield for curry and beers on the cheap bus from Fox House. Slept in the Fox House bus shelter.’

I think you’re right about memories of the climbing.

 67hours 26 Apr 2018
In reply to Alun:

Having bought a couple of guidebooks out here in Austria recently, one thing I have really appreciated is the duplication of the topos for long routes on a loose leaf sheet at the back. Means for a long multipitch you just carry the topo sheet with you. They often squeeze a few routes on one sheet and have ab points and pitch details marked. It's very smart.

 GrahamD 26 Apr 2018
In reply to fotoVUE:

> First ascent information is part of the description of a route (its history) and should be included with the route name, grade, pitch length, and where the route goes. It's interesting to know who did the first ascent and when it was established, when reading the route description.

Whereas I like to have some background information in guidebooks, I don't think its essential to the book's actual job of providing guidance.

Space isn't an issue because regrettably everyone seems to be migrating to books of coffee table dimensions with loads of fluffy full page photos !

 Offwidth 27 Apr 2018
In reply to 67hours:

I prefer to photocopy/ photograph and  print out (and laminate, if necessary) or carry a photo of the page (s) on a camera. Carrying books up long routes always seemed a bit silly: it trashes the book and you only need the information on the route, escapes and descent. Books with features and history (coffee-table content) have much more of a USP compared to Ap based resources (resources which will grow significantly over the next decade) in that modern guidebooks are often designed to inspire and entertain at home, as well as guide on the day. From a purely utilitarian perspective books are not needed much at all these days but sales are holding up remarkably well.

Post edited at 11:06
 Niall Grimes 27 Apr 2018

Oh lord! Another review of a book to a beautiful area swamped by discussion of the inclusion of first ascent information.

Doesn't the thought of climbing on High Tor or Beeston or Ilam Rock not make anyone want to burst into song!!!!

Ha!

M'only kiddling. Thanks for all your feedback and opinions everyone x

 

1
 Offwidth 27 Apr 2018
In reply to Niall Grimes:

Hey Niall, don't make it bad

Take a sad route, describe it better

Remember to let it into your heart

Then you can start to climb it better

 

Hey Niall, don't be afraid

You were made to layout things better

The minute you inspire rock under their skin

Then you begin to make it better

 

And anytime you feel the pain, hey Niall refrain

Don't carry all history on your shoulders

For well you know that it's a fool who plays it cool

By making his words a little colder

 

Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

 

Hey Niall, don't let me down

You have found style, now dont regret her

Remember to let it into your heart

Then you can start to make it better

 

So now its out with FAs in, hey Niall, begin

You're waiting for someone to perform it

And don't you know that it's just you, hey Niall, you'll do

The movement they need comes from your shoulder

Fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa yeah

 

Hey Niall, don't make it bad

Take a sad route, describe it better

Remember to feel it under your skin

Then you'll begin to make it

Better better better better better better, oh

Fa fa fa fa fa fa, fa fa fa, hey Niall

Fa fa  fa  fa fa fa, fa fa fa, hey Niall

Post edited at 12:02
 Niall Grimes 27 Apr 2018

Well I've come from Alabamy with a banjy on my knee, 

O I soon will be in New Orleans my true love for to see.

And when I'm there I'm going to give everyone my opinions on typography, relative issues of space use and what I thing are the REALLY important issues. Then maybe I'll share a news story about Jeremy Corbyn.

O Suzanney, don't you cry for meeeee.....

 

In reply to Si dH:

> A well-written history section telling the story of the area, or perhaps a personal account of one of the major first ascents (a la Cloggy guide) makes for good reading, but in my view all the FA details generally achieve is to satisfy the egos of the ascentionists.

The problem with these options is that a general history, no matter how well written, only really ever features hard routes and is exclusive of the majority of the routes in an area. The personal account is nothing but an ego ride for whoever's being interviewed. I think there's room for all three approaches for the "full experience".

 

In reply to Niall Grimes:

> Sure, well, points taken. When it came to it we put them back in again. Thanks for the feedback.

Don't thank me, thank the Peak Area who unanimously agreed that including the FA details was the right thing to do. I'm sure it's a relief to everyone that that none of the predicted negative consequences of doing this have happened.

On the one hand it's unfortunate that the GBC had to be strong armed into this, but on the other it shows that area meetings can induce change if they feel strongly enough about something, which they obviously did.

 Niall Grimes 27 Apr 2018

Cos I come from Alabamy with a banjy on my kneeee....

 

 

 danm 27 Apr 2018
In reply to Niall Grimes:

I was going to make a tedious post about the disappointment of discovering that there was no graded list, probably sacrificed to make room for a load of historical stuff, but seeing as this thread has taken a musical turn, instead I'll leave you with this:

Jesus built my car. It's a love affair. Mainly Jesus and my hot rod. Yeah, f*** it.

(P.S Waddage work on the guide and love the photos)

 Andy Say 27 Apr 2018
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Lumbutts? You have met people in Lumbutts?  I never did


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