UKC

So the situation is I was approached a few days after my dad died five years ago to do a couple of days work for a local plumber tearing out old bathrooms and installing new ones, but I never got paid for it as promised (no rate of pay agreed other than I'd be paid for the two days work). Anyway, shortly after this the guy had his first child arrive prematurely so I didn't chase payment at that time (I was a total mess too). Several month's after I texted the guy asking if he'd be able to settle up and didn't hear anything back and then about 18 month's after we moved away from the village and it got left. However we are now moving back to this village which is quite small and everyone knows each other and the guys brother is going to be my new next door neighbour. For me this is a loose end that needs tidying up on principle as much as anything and I'm quite cross about it so I contacted the guy again recently through facebook to which he didn't reply and then to his company and this morning had a snotty reply back from his secretary saying that he now trades under a new company and that they can't help. 

I'm thinking that I remind him each time I see him that he still owes me money, which as my child is gong to be in the same class as his at the village primary school, he drinks most days in the local brewery and will probably visit his brother next door is likely to be quite often...

Does anyone have any other ideas how I might get this guy to cough up and pay me? I'm wary of facebook naming and shaming, but I might if it comes to it! 

Ok, rant over, thanks for reading.

Crumbs, if it's going to be that difficult I'm tempted to pay you myself.

Kidnap his child and issue a ransom demand.

How can I put this nicely.
No sorry I cannot.
You are being an idiot, its bad enough falling out with a neighbour, but falling out with somone in a vilage you are moving to and your child is going to school, your just daft. Its five years ago, just let it go. Problem is you have now stoked it up havent you.
My best advice is do not move there now.

Fixed that for you.

5 years is a pretty long time. To my mind, it seems like one of those situations where neither of you (for understandable reasons) were on the ball to do with you being paid. Do you have a paper record of some sort of your bill to him?

Unless you can present him with something on paper, and approach him in a 'I know it was a long time ago, and we both had a lot on at the time, but would you mind paying me...' style, I'd be tempted to write it off in favour of harmony on moving into a village. 

I'd be wanting to move into a village 'on a good footing' I think.

All that over, what, a couple of hundred pounds that you don't seem to have missed?

Chalk it up to experience, but don't ever buy him a pint.

You never had a contract with him. Not even a verbal one by the sounds of it as no rate of pay was agreed.

Tell him he owes you a few beers for your time and meet him down the local boozer. Don't make enemies in a small village, especially with your next door neighbour's brother.

I think you've missed the boat here.  Becoming known as the village trouble making as soon as you move in sounds like a very bad move to me.

I'm in agreement here. We were owed £700 rent from a friend/lodger when he moved out, after our baby arrived. It took me about 5 yrs of hoping and expecting payment, to realising it was never going to happen, and letting it go.

I certainly felt a lot lighter after drawing the line under it, and can happily see that person without it coming to mind any more.

I agree with everyone’s comments about avoiding conflict, but if it rankles really badly and you want resolution then this is not legal advice but you might find it pragmatic:

If he has always traded as a limited company and the original company that hired you to do the work is now closed because he now operates a new company, then your debt is unrecoverable.

If the same limited company still operates, even if under a new name (check the company number which never changes) then the debt is easily recoverable IF you’re happy to take a few assertive steps that you will likely feel are justified by his theft of your time and effort.

if he is self-employed (and I stress this is not my area of expertise) my assumption is that the legal entity is not the trading name but the individual himself and changing the trading name does not work to avoid creditors.

If you’re up for the fight, ascertain the legal entity that owes you money (in all likelihood the person himself) and send him a copy of the invoice together with a statutory demand 

https://www.gov.uk/statutory-demands

If he fails to pay you within 21 days or prove the illegitimacy of your claim, you have the right to make him bankrupt or wind up his limited company.

It’s very unlikely you’ll need to do either. He will pay.

Non-payment for work performed is tantamount to theft. Look at how it’s made you feel. Don’t stand for it.

Well they've made it clear that they have no intention of paying, so I'm just going to remind him that he never paid me whenever I see him. I have a lot of good friends in the village and see no reason not to talk to them about this guys lack of integrity. 

That was a good shout about the company number, but it has been closed and a new one registered.

Maybe keep in mind that your son will be in the same class as his, and that he'll be growing up there - let that inform what you do when you move back to the village?

Then you have proof that

a) he is at best a poor businessman and, more likely, a cheat, and

b) there's nothing you can do to recover the money.

Drop it and move on.

And hence, as BnB wrote, your debt is (legally) unrecoverable. After 5 years, I think its time to move on. And don't "name and shame" on facebook; you are going to look a bit stupid. If you do any more work for him, just make sure you get payment up front or at least a po that proves there is a contract. And charge him a bit more than you usually would..........

You have no chance:

a. 5 years without chasing the debt.

b. no paperwork.  No evidence the job was ordered or carried out.  Also if there's no VAT/tax accounting for this job in your books chasing the money in court may not be smart.

c. no agreed rate.  

d. he is trading under a different legal entity.  The legal entity you had an oral agreement with 5 years ago may not even exist any more.

Let it go for now.   If he tries to hire you again pad it to get even.

I replied by email that If they want to settle up then nothing ever needs to be said again. I said personally I wouldn't feel right having an outstanding debt like this as it's a matter of personal integrity and that If he doesn't want to settle it then I will bring it up each time I see him... At the very least the cost of my time and labour will be a major annoyance to him.

With his brother as your neighbour, and his son in your son's class, and it being a small village, was that a wise thing to write? Principles and wisdom, I'm (unconnected to this) starting to wonder if they're always both aligned. 

You're right to feel annoyed though...

Seriously Baron, have a rethink here.  You may be entitled to be a bit aggrieved because of lost money from 5 years ago, but going to war about it now is not the right thing to do.  Certainly have a look at some formal/professional approaches, but don't go down the personal/punitive route.  It could get messy and stay messy for a long time.

Think about Thoreau (and I am reaching back into "My side of the mountain" to give reference here).  Thoreau said:

"Never look back unless you are planning to go that way."

and

"Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life so."

If it's a point of honor, rather than a huge sum of cash, then give him a way out so as to save face. Be friendly and say you'll settle for a pint or two. Honor restored.

The fact you'll be sitting with him in the pub may mend old wounds and help you fit in with village life. I couldn't think of anything worse than having a festering dispute with a parent at my child's school. One that will raise it's head each morning / afternoon, sports day and so on, for years to come.

It is a point of honor as you put it, the guy was desperate for me to help him out at a time when I was an emotional wreck. The reason for approaching him now is that I don't want a festering dispute for years to come twice a day on the school run, sitting out in my garden if he's at his brothers or down the local tap... It's been festering long enough already. On the odd occasion that I have seen the guy since I did the work for him he always avoids me and he's never replied when I have tried to message him about payment. I normally avoid conflict which is why I've never pursued him down the pub etc and with moving out of the village I haven't seen him much, but I know that is going to change. I'm trying not to be annoyed, but I am and his secretary talking about me alleging to have worked for him has annoyed me further. 

Thanks Rampikino, I'm trying to take your advice on board, I'm trying - it's been festering a long time now though and I'm effin pissed off about it. 

Sorry to be blunt but all you’ll achieve here is looking like an embittered fool. If it was truely such a matter of integrity, you should have taken action at least four years ago. It sounds like you’re wanting to achieve the unenviable title of the new village whiner. Let it go.

Does he drive a van with no rear windows, or with blacked out rear windows?  Is it sound proofed?  You might check before you decide to up the ante...

Edit: More seriously - let it go.  Life is to short - you didn’t care about this a year ago, right?  If someone went around my village constantly bad mouthing a neighbour I’d start forming my own opinions for sure.  

It’s not even clear to me that you have the moral high ground.  I’ve tried and failed to pay someone for services rendered once as a private individual - I eventually gave up trying.  If they got in touch now I would pay them still.  But, if a debt had been owed by my now defunct company under similar circumstances (of exhaustively trying to pay) I would not now pay it as I consider that companies business to be closed and to be firewalled from my family budget.  If I paid it personallly that would cost me NI and PAYE on top of the cost of the bill, that would not have applied had the company been able to settle it.  Apparently the person didn’t exhaustively try to pay you but on balance I would still apply my view in your shoes.

On the other hand, my company shut because I moved on to something totally unrelated, it wasn’t suddenly replaced by a new company with the old assets, old directors, a new name and no debt...  But anyone who does that clearly doesn’t give a flying F.

To be honest, I would turn the whole thing on it's head.

When in the pub next, spot what he is drinking, buy a pint and head over to him. Apologise for hounding him, suggesting that it was tough times for both you emotionally and/or financially and that you want to move on. He knows he is wrong, but no amount of you sulking on ukc will fix it.

Life is too short to be dodging neighbours or parents at the school gate. Be the honourable adult and move it on. 

You remind me of myself (as far as is possible over the interweb), things can rankle with me for a long time, if I don't regulate my thoughts things can come back to me and bug me. I've got a sis in law who has done a few things which are out of order, and essentially,  there's no escape from her if I want to still see my brother and my nieces, and don't want to cause discord. It seems to come down to making a conscious decision to let something go in the end, to focus on something else, and to decide that it's less important than one is feeling it to be - at the time that it's starting to rankle again. 

There seems to be a way in which emotions and thoughts are looped together, so if the thoughts are regulated, the emotions can start to follow, if you think about letting it go and it not being that important really, you'll probably start to feel that it's less important too...

Edit: But I'll never forgive a brother for breaking a favourite mug.  

You do know of course that if you fail to resolve this and move on, fate will dictate your kids become best friends and want to have play dates, sleep overs...  

I've been there in almost exactly the same circumstances in that I failed to deliver an invoice for goods delivered to a neighbour in the aftermath of my fathers death.

It was as much my failing as theirs and I'm sure that life is better for the decision to write it off than it ever would have been if I'd decided to make an issue of it years later.

Exactly.  

Get him to stick in a new bathroom for you. When it comes to paying, just knock 2 days' labour off what you pay him. 

To be blunt, it's festering because you won't let it go. 

And it's going to stay that way until you do.

That's not the moral answer, it's not the nice answer, it's not even the reasonable answer, but it's the reality of the situation.

I'm sorry about the situation, but as it is you should drop it (for all the reasons others have said.)

Law allows you 6 years to submit the invoice under statute. There again you have to actually prove you did the work etc etc.  It is surprising how many companys do not submit invoices on time.If you have no paper work to back it up, then you are in difficulty ( no matter the rights or wrongs)

But as others have said is it really worth the pain and grief in this case. Only you can deep down decide. It will eat you up which ever way you do it. What does your partner think?

You are putting yourself through all this grief 5 years on for the sake of just 2 days pay!? How much would you have earned for those two days?

It might be more understandable if you were, say, a banker, but............! 

Drop it, going by your posts life is too short and the social consequences of pursuing this sound far too great. Why is this suddenly such a massive issue after five years?

If you let it go, while he's the one who avoids you, he'll always feel a bit weird until he pays you, and that's up to him. It's kind of karma for him to not feel at ease and want to avoid you (in the sense that we create our own rather than a mystical one). 

Skip down the street with a clear conscience and have him duck and avoid you as you go past.

"Hanging on to resentment is like drinking poison hoping it will kill someone else" Alice May from Surviving Betrayal (1999)

Sounds like good advice, but I'm going to spell out why I'm pissed off (in a calm and coherent way) to him first because I think I need to before letting it go.

but I'm going to spell out why I'm pissed off (in a calm and coherent way) to him first because I think I need to before letting it go.

That's the bit that you need to 'let go'. Saying anything at all. 

That's what risks 'creating waves' when you move back, if he's the kind to be funny about paying you back and avoid you because of it, he's probably the kind to not tell the truth to anybody else in the village about it, too.

It's only my opinion, but I think you run the risk of less aggro if you find peace within yourself and let it go. Having lived since toddlerhood in the same city, it's my experience that other people eventually get the measure of anybody with a funny side to them, even if it happens a decade or two after oneself has, you possibly just need to wait for other people to discover what he's like? It's a skilled person who can hide their flaws from everybody.

Edit: Hide a funny side to them, rather. 

I’ve often thought the main reason some post “advice” threads like yours is because their subconscious is flashing a warning light at them.  Listen to your subconscious and the confirmatory tone of the thread...  Or at least resolve to not do anything irreversible for a few weeks...

Am I allowed to shake my head when I see him at least? 

Naah, be friendly and watch him feel awkward. It might work actually, a friend had somebody move out and leave bills unpaid, after having been warned that he might do that, and he rang him up here and there, just wanting to see how he was and if he was up to anything, and said person felt remorse and went against his reputation for leaving things unpaid.

I heard him vaguely awkwardly explaining that he was just ringing up to see if he was up to anything, after being asked why he'd rung...

Boot him in the bollocks, then shake his hand and say "quits".

Once again I find myself in agreement with you krikoman. If you're ever in the south lakes and fancy climbing then some beer's send me a pm! 

I need some training first, not for the beer, I'm quite good at that and have regular practice.

I've been away from climbing regularly for a couple of years, but am slowly trying to make some time to get back into it.

Will keep you in mind though, thanks for the offer.

I'm just starting climbing again after a 5 year lay off involving foot surgery for a trapped nerve and have done half a dozen routes in the past few weeks so we'd be perfect climbing partners. And regarding drinking, once I've managed to navigate HMRC's red tape I'll have my own microbrewery

I'll send you a PM!

Sounds like you're never going to get the money, and trying to get it is only going to cause more stress. Do you really want to keep fighting that battle?

how about you buy him a pint and sit down for a chat. During which you could come to an agreement. You're bound to have loads of odd jobs needing doing if you're just moving, maybe he could repay your labour for some of his own? He helps you out when he has a day off, thus costing him nowt, you get a helping hand, the debt is paid and peace is restored.

good luck. 

Asking him for help in return might be the best possible solution, I really like your thinking - you might just have diffused a time bomb.

Hey, good luck with the microbrewery!

Just let it go completely; you will be far too busy to worry about him when you are trying to build the business.

And just think; he will very possibly be buying your pints, at a profit to you, for hopefully many years to come. Now that's surely the best payback!

Building trade rules apply, gotta be settled in the pub car park with your shirts off, it's the only way.

Ha ha Nice one